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On April 24 2014 09:57 xRiotZx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 11:46 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 22 2014 16:37 xRiotZx wrote:On April 19 2014 05:18 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 16 2014 07:37 dreamdust wrote:On March 25 2014 11:52 alpenrahm wrote:On March 25 2014 11:00 Danglars wrote:
The incredibly common ideas of (1) Get a mothership core for defense and (2) Open Oracle before or after expanding present great problems that you have not addressed with discussion or good replays in your post.
The only other option would be to accept a hefty economic penalty by immediately switching to marines and hopefully having 6 before his oracle comes (let's say his foolishly loses the stalker). This opening is much inferior to expanding and then adding on rax in that situation. With chronos and strategic retreats of the stalker to mineral line (outranges, isn't easily bursted down with careful control), you aren't guaranteed high damage. well, im confident that i would be able to scout a proxy stargate and deny its production! and as for replays, i just didn´t encounter oracle play yet ^^ but i assume he wont have a MSC and an oracle and an expansion and enough stalkers to deal with my 3 reapers so his losses should be pretty even to mine with propper micro. But this is all theory craft, i have no idea how it would actually play out... maybe i could somehow get turrets in time? maybe he just dies? maybe i just bo lose? who knows ... well,i actually be able to scout any proxy stargate,but the problem is,I can't really deny the oracle producthion with the second pylon or even three.when the first oracle pop out,I will be in very bad position. 1.it will be too late switching to marines 2.even with turrets oracle can Do damage to me 3.i will never kill the toss if i keep reaper production,even he only have one gateway. How would you face this situation? I also simply die with one base blink stalker. (with p keep in defend position and MSC defend,I can not hurt their economy or stalker count,once the blink is done game is pretty much over.) and the new ladder map is really not favor for reaper too after 30 game practice and training,the win rate is not very good,for master level in K/T sever even for diamond. Any way,its fun build i admit,but definitely not so fun for less 50%win rate in higher level. 1. With a turret and a few marines you are fine, but you must have a turret in time, without it you are indeed in a lot of trouble. 2. You can easily kill the toss if he has one gateway, your reapers simply engage the stalkers head on and destroy them. 3. Vs 1base blink it is extremely important to see if they are bringing MSC or not. They usually do - which means you just counter with reapers, wipe out all the probes (and warped in stalkers as they can only do 3 at a time). If they don't bring the MSC, you pull the reapers back to defend, which they are EXTREMELY helpful, as you defend the front you use the reapers to flank all the weakeneed stalkers that blink back. You are also able to contain the toss before they move out with the probe to get a proxy pylon for a whlie. I struggle the most where an oracle does sufficient dmg that we're about even, and THEN they transition to 1 base blink. You can't counter because MSC at home and they get vision to the high ground and can even utilize the oracle itself to either harass or pick off marines/repairing SCVs. Oracles kill reapers btw. Turrets also don't move btw. It takes 5 marines to kill an oracle btw. Yes, they do. It doesn't stop the build. No, they don't. It doesn't stop the build. Yes, it does. It doesn't stop the build. Silly to make comments that don't account for timings during a build. Am I saying that this reaper build counters oracles or anything like that? No, the situation is actually quite chaotic early game. But nothing you say somehow kills the build either. Oracle directly counters reaper, I was playing a game of 2v2 earlier, as random, I got protoss, went oracle, chased the guy's reapers around til I caught up to kill them, gg. Game was over right there. Also, account for timings? What timings can you exploit exactly? I can have an oracle out by 5:40ish if I rush it, by then you can only have 2 reapers max unless you went 888, which I wouldn't make a stargate against 888 anyway.
What makes you think 2v2 has any relevance to this strategy? Your information about timings is also greatly incorrect. With the double reactor opening you can have 5 reapers by 5:40, but you wouldn't against oracle because your first reaper would have already scouted either:
1. in-base stargate
2. Protoss is doing a proxy
In either case, you can pump out marines instead of reapers from double reactor barracks, giving you 8 marines by the time the first oracle can fly into the Terran base.
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On April 25 2014 11:24 iamcaustic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2014 09:57 xRiotZx wrote:On April 23 2014 11:46 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 22 2014 16:37 xRiotZx wrote:On April 19 2014 05:18 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 16 2014 07:37 dreamdust wrote:On March 25 2014 11:52 alpenrahm wrote:On March 25 2014 11:00 Danglars wrote:
The incredibly common ideas of (1) Get a mothership core for defense and (2) Open Oracle before or after expanding present great problems that you have not addressed with discussion or good replays in your post.
The only other option would be to accept a hefty economic penalty by immediately switching to marines and hopefully having 6 before his oracle comes (let's say his foolishly loses the stalker). This opening is much inferior to expanding and then adding on rax in that situation. With chronos and strategic retreats of the stalker to mineral line (outranges, isn't easily bursted down with careful control), you aren't guaranteed high damage. well, im confident that i would be able to scout a proxy stargate and deny its production! and as for replays, i just didn´t encounter oracle play yet ^^ but i assume he wont have a MSC and an oracle and an expansion and enough stalkers to deal with my 3 reapers so his losses should be pretty even to mine with propper micro. But this is all theory craft, i have no idea how it would actually play out... maybe i could somehow get turrets in time? maybe he just dies? maybe i just bo lose? who knows ... well,i actually be able to scout any proxy stargate,but the problem is,I can't really deny the oracle producthion with the second pylon or even three.when the first oracle pop out,I will be in very bad position. 1.it will be too late switching to marines 2.even with turrets oracle can Do damage to me 3.i will never kill the toss if i keep reaper production,even he only have one gateway. How would you face this situation? I also simply die with one base blink stalker. (with p keep in defend position and MSC defend,I can not hurt their economy or stalker count,once the blink is done game is pretty much over.) and the new ladder map is really not favor for reaper too after 30 game practice and training,the win rate is not very good,for master level in K/T sever even for diamond. Any way,its fun build i admit,but definitely not so fun for less 50%win rate in higher level. 1. With a turret and a few marines you are fine, but you must have a turret in time, without it you are indeed in a lot of trouble. 2. You can easily kill the toss if he has one gateway, your reapers simply engage the stalkers head on and destroy them. 3. Vs 1base blink it is extremely important to see if they are bringing MSC or not. They usually do - which means you just counter with reapers, wipe out all the probes (and warped in stalkers as they can only do 3 at a time). If they don't bring the MSC, you pull the reapers back to defend, which they are EXTREMELY helpful, as you defend the front you use the reapers to flank all the weakeneed stalkers that blink back. You are also able to contain the toss before they move out with the probe to get a proxy pylon for a whlie. I struggle the most where an oracle does sufficient dmg that we're about even, and THEN they transition to 1 base blink. You can't counter because MSC at home and they get vision to the high ground and can even utilize the oracle itself to either harass or pick off marines/repairing SCVs. Oracles kill reapers btw. Turrets also don't move btw. It takes 5 marines to kill an oracle btw. Yes, they do. It doesn't stop the build. No, they don't. It doesn't stop the build. Yes, it does. It doesn't stop the build. Silly to make comments that don't account for timings during a build. Am I saying that this reaper build counters oracles or anything like that? No, the situation is actually quite chaotic early game. But nothing you say somehow kills the build either. Oracle directly counters reaper, I was playing a game of 2v2 earlier, as random, I got protoss, went oracle, chased the guy's reapers around til I caught up to kill them, gg. Game was over right there. Also, account for timings? What timings can you exploit exactly? I can have an oracle out by 5:40ish if I rush it, by then you can only have 2 reapers max unless you went 888, which I wouldn't make a stargate against 888 anyway. What makes you think 2v2 has any relevance to this strategy? Your information about timings is also greatly incorrect. With the double reactor opening you can have 5 reapers by 5:40, but you wouldn't against oracle because your first reaper would have already scouted either: 1. in-base stargate 2. Protoss is doing a proxy In either case, you can pump out marines instead of reapers from double reactor barracks, giving you 8 marines by the time the first oracle can fly into the Terran base.
"But you wouldn't" -> Retarded statement because once you stop making reapers, I have total map control, and can expand as much as I want.
I doubt you can have 5 reapers by that time, but assuming you do, you delayed your first 3 by well over a minute once you go reactor.
I go in base stargate, I put it behind my mineral line, there's no way for you to stop it, and there's no need for me to tech switch, because I force 2-3 turrets and marine production, so you stop your reaper harass totally, allowing me to expand, and you spend 325-425 minerals on turrets, giving me a 425 mineral lead on you, which is the equivalent cost of a Nexus.
But this is all theory crafting. You couldn't beat my friend with the build, I doubt you can beat me with it, and I don't even play toss, moreover zerg is my 2nd race. Opening 2 rax against protoss is viable but, after a little trot into the midgame, once he has his bearings, you're never going to do any damage. I wouldn't make more than 6 reapers in a TvP, and even that is extremely risky vs an oracle first opening.
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I faced this on the ladder yesterday. It's stupid.
You just add a couple of gateways, make a whole bunch of Stalkers, and tech to Colossus.
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On April 25 2014 23:43 xRiotZx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 11:24 iamcaustic wrote:On April 24 2014 09:57 xRiotZx wrote:On April 23 2014 11:46 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 22 2014 16:37 xRiotZx wrote:On April 19 2014 05:18 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 16 2014 07:37 dreamdust wrote:On March 25 2014 11:52 alpenrahm wrote:On March 25 2014 11:00 Danglars wrote:
The incredibly common ideas of (1) Get a mothership core for defense and (2) Open Oracle before or after expanding present great problems that you have not addressed with discussion or good replays in your post.
The only other option would be to accept a hefty economic penalty by immediately switching to marines and hopefully having 6 before his oracle comes (let's say his foolishly loses the stalker). This opening is much inferior to expanding and then adding on rax in that situation. With chronos and strategic retreats of the stalker to mineral line (outranges, isn't easily bursted down with careful control), you aren't guaranteed high damage. well, im confident that i would be able to scout a proxy stargate and deny its production! and as for replays, i just didn´t encounter oracle play yet ^^ but i assume he wont have a MSC and an oracle and an expansion and enough stalkers to deal with my 3 reapers so his losses should be pretty even to mine with propper micro. But this is all theory craft, i have no idea how it would actually play out... maybe i could somehow get turrets in time? maybe he just dies? maybe i just bo lose? who knows ... well,i actually be able to scout any proxy stargate,but the problem is,I can't really deny the oracle producthion with the second pylon or even three.when the first oracle pop out,I will be in very bad position. 1.it will be too late switching to marines 2.even with turrets oracle can Do damage to me 3.i will never kill the toss if i keep reaper production,even he only have one gateway. How would you face this situation? I also simply die with one base blink stalker. (with p keep in defend position and MSC defend,I can not hurt their economy or stalker count,once the blink is done game is pretty much over.) and the new ladder map is really not favor for reaper too after 30 game practice and training,the win rate is not very good,for master level in K/T sever even for diamond. Any way,its fun build i admit,but definitely not so fun for less 50%win rate in higher level. 1. With a turret and a few marines you are fine, but you must have a turret in time, without it you are indeed in a lot of trouble. 2. You can easily kill the toss if he has one gateway, your reapers simply engage the stalkers head on and destroy them. 3. Vs 1base blink it is extremely important to see if they are bringing MSC or not. They usually do - which means you just counter with reapers, wipe out all the probes (and warped in stalkers as they can only do 3 at a time). If they don't bring the MSC, you pull the reapers back to defend, which they are EXTREMELY helpful, as you defend the front you use the reapers to flank all the weakeneed stalkers that blink back. You are also able to contain the toss before they move out with the probe to get a proxy pylon for a whlie. I struggle the most where an oracle does sufficient dmg that we're about even, and THEN they transition to 1 base blink. You can't counter because MSC at home and they get vision to the high ground and can even utilize the oracle itself to either harass or pick off marines/repairing SCVs. Oracles kill reapers btw. Turrets also don't move btw. It takes 5 marines to kill an oracle btw. Yes, they do. It doesn't stop the build. No, they don't. It doesn't stop the build. Yes, it does. It doesn't stop the build. Silly to make comments that don't account for timings during a build. Am I saying that this reaper build counters oracles or anything like that? No, the situation is actually quite chaotic early game. But nothing you say somehow kills the build either. Oracle directly counters reaper, I was playing a game of 2v2 earlier, as random, I got protoss, went oracle, chased the guy's reapers around til I caught up to kill them, gg. Game was over right there. Also, account for timings? What timings can you exploit exactly? I can have an oracle out by 5:40ish if I rush it, by then you can only have 2 reapers max unless you went 888, which I wouldn't make a stargate against 888 anyway. What makes you think 2v2 has any relevance to this strategy? Your information about timings is also greatly incorrect. With the double reactor opening you can have 5 reapers by 5:40, but you wouldn't against oracle because your first reaper would have already scouted either: 1. in-base stargate 2. Protoss is doing a proxy In either case, you can pump out marines instead of reapers from double reactor barracks, giving you 8 marines by the time the first oracle can fly into the Terran base. "But you wouldn't" -> Retarded statement because once you stop making reapers, I have total map control, and can expand as much as I want.
Do you even know how to play TvP? For the two previous seasons, I've had over 90% TvP win rate (vs Diamond and Masters) by punishing tech expands with 4-5 marine production -- stargate sucks against early mass marine and photon overcharge only lets you hold for 60 seconds. My nat finishes around the same time yours falls. The only current PvT build that holds the nat against this is the 1-gate robo expand into 3 gates, and only if your forcefield placement is smart (only had mid-Master+ pull it off reliably).
On April 25 2014 23:43 xRiotZx wrote:
I doubt you can have 5 reapers by that time, but assuming you do, you delayed your first 3 by well over a minute once you go reactor.
Why don't you actually research and try the build instead of assuming things? We already told you the timings, you plug your ears and pretend it's a fantasy.
On April 25 2014 23:43 xRiotZx wrote:
I go in base stargate, I put it behind my mineral line, there's no way for you to stop it, and there's no need for me to tech switch, because I force 2-3 turrets and marine production, so you stop your reaper harass totally, allowing me to expand, and you spend 325-425 minerals on turrets, giving me a 425 mineral lead on you, which is the equivalent cost of a Nexus.
Putting it in your base means the first reaper scouts it. I proceed to pump out marines (as previously noted) and punish your nat. The only thing I need to worry about is a 1-base gateway/oracle bust, but that's easily spotted with the first reaper checking the nexus timing.
On April 25 2014 23:43 xRiotZx wrote:
But this is all theory crafting.
No, you're the only one theory crafting (and poorly at that). I've been enjoying a 90%+ TvP win rate the past few seasons (don't ask me about my TvZ though...).
On April 25 2014 23:43 xRiotZx wrote:
You couldn't beat my friend with the build
My dad can beat up your dad.
On April 25 2014 23:43 xRiotZx wrote:
I doubt you can beat me with it, and I don't even play toss, moreover zerg is my 2nd race. Opening 2 rax against protoss is viable but, after a little trot into the midgame, once he has his bearings, you're never going to do any damage. I wouldn't make more than 6 reapers in a TvP, and even that is extremely risky vs an oracle first opening.
I'd be more than willing to put that to the test. Unless you're a mid-to-high Master (not off racing), I'm quite confident I'll win. Well, that or you pick one of my vetoes and I'm at a loss for my scouting. Feel free to send me a PM if you want to set up a time.
p.s. my vetoes are King Sejong Station, Waystation, and Alterzim Stronghold. Pretty standard weeding out of terrible ladder maps.
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On April 25 2014 23:43 xRiotZx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 11:24 iamcaustic wrote:On April 24 2014 09:57 xRiotZx wrote:On April 23 2014 11:46 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 22 2014 16:37 xRiotZx wrote:On April 19 2014 05:18 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 16 2014 07:37 dreamdust wrote:On March 25 2014 11:52 alpenrahm wrote:On March 25 2014 11:00 Danglars wrote:
The incredibly common ideas of (1) Get a mothership core for defense and (2) Open Oracle before or after expanding present great problems that you have not addressed with discussion or good replays in your post.
The only other option would be to accept a hefty economic penalty by immediately switching to marines and hopefully having 6 before his oracle comes (let's say his foolishly loses the stalker). This opening is much inferior to expanding and then adding on rax in that situation. With chronos and strategic retreats of the stalker to mineral line (outranges, isn't easily bursted down with careful control), you aren't guaranteed high damage. well, im confident that i would be able to scout a proxy stargate and deny its production! and as for replays, i just didn´t encounter oracle play yet ^^ but i assume he wont have a MSC and an oracle and an expansion and enough stalkers to deal with my 3 reapers so his losses should be pretty even to mine with propper micro. But this is all theory craft, i have no idea how it would actually play out... maybe i could somehow get turrets in time? maybe he just dies? maybe i just bo lose? who knows ... well,i actually be able to scout any proxy stargate,but the problem is,I can't really deny the oracle producthion with the second pylon or even three.when the first oracle pop out,I will be in very bad position. 1.it will be too late switching to marines 2.even with turrets oracle can Do damage to me 3.i will never kill the toss if i keep reaper production,even he only have one gateway. How would you face this situation? I also simply die with one base blink stalker. (with p keep in defend position and MSC defend,I can not hurt their economy or stalker count,once the blink is done game is pretty much over.) and the new ladder map is really not favor for reaper too after 30 game practice and training,the win rate is not very good,for master level in K/T sever even for diamond. Any way,its fun build i admit,but definitely not so fun for less 50%win rate in higher level. 1. With a turret and a few marines you are fine, but you must have a turret in time, without it you are indeed in a lot of trouble. 2. You can easily kill the toss if he has one gateway, your reapers simply engage the stalkers head on and destroy them. 3. Vs 1base blink it is extremely important to see if they are bringing MSC or not. They usually do - which means you just counter with reapers, wipe out all the probes (and warped in stalkers as they can only do 3 at a time). If they don't bring the MSC, you pull the reapers back to defend, which they are EXTREMELY helpful, as you defend the front you use the reapers to flank all the weakeneed stalkers that blink back. You are also able to contain the toss before they move out with the probe to get a proxy pylon for a whlie. I struggle the most where an oracle does sufficient dmg that we're about even, and THEN they transition to 1 base blink. You can't counter because MSC at home and they get vision to the high ground and can even utilize the oracle itself to either harass or pick off marines/repairing SCVs. Oracles kill reapers btw. Turrets also don't move btw. It takes 5 marines to kill an oracle btw. Yes, they do. It doesn't stop the build. No, they don't. It doesn't stop the build. Yes, it does. It doesn't stop the build. Silly to make comments that don't account for timings during a build. Am I saying that this reaper build counters oracles or anything like that? No, the situation is actually quite chaotic early game. But nothing you say somehow kills the build either. Oracle directly counters reaper, I was playing a game of 2v2 earlier, as random, I got protoss, went oracle, chased the guy's reapers around til I caught up to kill them, gg. Game was over right there. Also, account for timings? What timings can you exploit exactly? I can have an oracle out by 5:40ish if I rush it, by then you can only have 2 reapers max unless you went 888, which I wouldn't make a stargate against 888 anyway. What makes you think 2v2 has any relevance to this strategy? Your information about timings is also greatly incorrect. With the double reactor opening you can have 5 reapers by 5:40, but you wouldn't against oracle because your first reaper would have already scouted either: 1. in-base stargate 2. Protoss is doing a proxy In either case, you can pump out marines instead of reapers from double reactor barracks, giving you 8 marines by the time the first oracle can fly into the Terran base. "But you wouldn't" -> Retarded statement because once you stop making reapers, I have total map control, and can expand as much as I want. I doubt you can have 5 reapers by that time, but assuming you do, you delayed your first 3 by well over a minute once you go reactor. I go in base stargate, I put it behind my mineral line, there's no way for you to stop it, and there's no need for me to tech switch, because I force 2-3 turrets and marine production, so you stop your reaper harass totally, allowing me to expand, and you spend 325-425 minerals on turrets, giving me a 425 mineral lead on you, which is the equivalent cost of a Nexus. But this is all theory crafting. You couldn't beat my friend with the build, I doubt you can beat me with it, and I don't even play toss, moreover zerg is my 2nd race. Opening 2 rax against protoss is viable but, after a little trot into the midgame, once he has his bearings, you're never going to do any damage. I wouldn't make more than 6 reapers in a TvP, and even that is extremely risky vs an oracle first opening.
You are mindblowingly incompetent with your replies. You're not even trying to figure it out, you're completely guessing everything, and wrong at that.
No, you can't expand as much as you want, that's utterly ridiculous. Try expanding twice after.
You put it behind your mineral line and the Terran will build cc inbase before protoss, then build an ebay, and if you try to pressure with your oracle he will counter with his reapers.
Ebay in this case is after expansion and wanted vs Stargate play anyways. And no, I don't need 3 turrets vs an Oracle, that's utterly ridiculous.
I lost to your friend's midgame push after the early game - after I expanded extremely late (well over 400 minerals) and forgot the orbital for even longer, didn't followup with most of the other stuff in time, did not scout his immortal push out because I didn't know the map (had reapers out ahead but he went around them), and killed me on a 2base immortal push when I had teched to 3orbital and double ebay. Give me a break.
Your friend also had played a ridiculous amount of games that week, and I had mentioned I hadn't played in a month, and he was ranked higher. You're making ridiculous comparisons from a single game under those scenarios.
The build is also weaker on maps where there's no access to the main without going through the natural and if there's a natural ramp, which this map had those features. Harder to poke with a natural ramp.
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On April 26 2014 14:40 FabledIntegral wrote:
You put it behind your mineral line and the Terran will build cc inbase before protoss, then build an ebay, and if you try to pressure with your oracle he will counter with his reapers.
That's another way of going about it, if you're not into marine counter-response. Can get a bit dicey though, if you're not properly protecting both gas geysers with turrets.
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On April 28 2014 05:20 iamcaustic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2014 14:40 FabledIntegral wrote:
You put it behind your mineral line and the Terran will build cc inbase before protoss, then build an ebay, and if you try to pressure with your oracle he will counter with his reapers. That's another way of going about it, if you're not into marine counter-response. Can get a bit dicey though, if you're not properly protecting both gas geysers with turrets.
From personal experience, you just need to have a single turret, no more. Given you have two-rax and two-reactor, you just rally marines to the turret in the middle of the mineral line, allowing you to accumulate marines w/o dying. If the oracle activates its charge, you just pull scvs from gas - but at this point you no longer even need gas because you're mineral starved because you've been mining from dual geyser and switched to marine production. All the protoss production after the first oracle then goes into stalker (as they are limited to two gas on this point and cannot support additional oracles).
It definitely gets dicey, but the overall build is fairly dicey and plays on edge the entire way. I'm just very familiar with it at this point. I will admit the new map pool is substantially less favorable to this play than the previous map pool, however.
I've personally had extreme success with the build against blink stalker builds that everyone keeps saying is a counter, just because you have a reaper count that can take on typically up to 4 stalkers - you pin them in their base until about 5, in which you can threaten counters, buying time and knowing the build, you just build bunkers at the point they can build up, pull scvs to the bunkers preemptively (extremely important), and rely on dual mule production for mules while teching to medivacs/stim. As mentioned prior, reapers then flank the weak blink stalkers that blink out - which is usually the issue with why Terran is so weak to early game blink stalkers (can't ever kill them).
I'm not saying a 1base immortal push doesn't counter this, but I have still yet to encounter it, so rather than do what the xriotzx person is doing and make random misc. claims, I won't make any claims on whether or not it holds up to it because, alas, I do not know the timings.
Also clearly not stating this is some OP undiscovered strategy, just that it holds up and has its own perks far more than people give it credit for, and is a way to punish a Protoss for being overly greedy without going all-in. If a Protoss responds ideally in every aspect, I'm sure they could come out ahead. But it's the same if they go Nex first and you go 1rax CC, etc.
From personal experience, it's been far less all-in than what a 2rax push was against 1 gate expo in WoL, because you actually keep all your reapers alive and they regen to full health, it gives you map control and lets you know when a counter is coming. In WoL 2rax, you had to attack and do significant damage or you were notably behind.
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iamcaustic, I would like to test this build with you. I'm master NA/EU/KR toss, PM me if u want to play. I initially thought this build would work but its one of those builds that work on ladder because all games are bo1s (unless u meet same person of course). This is similar to any other unortohodox builds like proxy tempest PvT (100% winrate with it so far). or fake voidray rush into 6:00 DT (PvP).
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On April 28 2014 11:03 Xinzoe wrote:
iamcaustic, I would like to test this build with you. I'm master NA/EU/KR toss, PM me if u want to play. I initially thought this build would work but its one of those builds that work on ladder because all games are bo1s (unless u meet same person of course). This is similar to any other unortohodox builds like proxy tempest PvT (100% winrate with it so far). or fake voidray rush into 6:00 DT (PvP).
For everyone except professional players, builds that only work for ladder are good enough. This is also the kind of build you'd likely see players pull out for a Proleague match once in a blue moon, if the conditions were right. I certainly agree it's not a standard build; it has a number of obvious counters, none of which are standard for PvT at the moment, which is why the build works so well. Like I said before, it makes for a nice little weapon to have in the pocket.
Long story short, I agree with your assessment, though it's still a perfectly good build to have.
With your triple region Masters, I dare say I'd have to take you on as I normally do in TvP to beat you, rather than guaranteeing a particular build. I honestly don't believe Terran holds a chance against Protoss if the Protoss player is able to adequately prepare from the very start of the game (assuming equal skill, let alone the Protoss being higher ranked). We need windows of opportunity to catch you off guard and hollow you out, whether that's unexpected drops, sudden early mass reapers, early bio timings (Polt stim style, for example), etc. When the Protoss is prepared, the Protoss wins. It's the current nature of the matchup: Terran guerrilla warfare.
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I just made an account here because I found this thread while googling mass reaper and had to respond.
I'm a master level cannon rusher, and a few months ago I decided to try mass reaper in 4v4, and then tried it in 1v1 with surprising results.
I'm currently around mid-diamond MMR with it, which I'm sure is higher than I could get with traditional terran macro because I'm simply bad at it (offrace, and my main race is cannon rushing into blink all in).
Anyway, the real point of this is that any mass reaper enthusiasts here would probably appreciate my appearance on Funday Monday (2 mass reaper tvp games cast by day[9]) over here
I've also been using mass reaper against zerg and terran, and have great success tvt except vs banshees, and am good tvz until mutas pop out.
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On July 07 2014 11:39 printf wrote:I just made an account here because I found this thread while googling mass reaper and had to respond. I'm a master level cannon rusher, and a few months ago I decided to try mass reaper in 4v4, and then tried it in 1v1 with surprising results. I'm currently around mid-diamond MMR with it, which I'm sure is higher than I could get with traditional terran macro because I'm simply bad at it (offrace, and my main race is cannon rushing into blink all in). Anyway, the real point of this is that any mass reaper enthusiasts here would probably appreciate my appearance on Funday Monday (2 mass reaper tvp games cast by day[9]) over hereI've also been using mass reaper against zerg and terran, and have great success tvt except vs banshees, and am good tvz until mutas pop out.
you r the man!
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I always wanted to try this one before I changed from Zerg to Terran. Now that my macro is better I will give it not one but a lot of shots :D Also was thinking,could it be interesting to add WM later on in the game ? Provocking with the Reapers and make the enemy waltz through the mines.
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Mass Reaper requires a bad response from Protoss to really be effective, or a Nexus first since that delays his Cybernetics Core (for MSC and Stalkers).
Against any regular play, Protoss can just make a few Stalkers and be fine.
A Stalker can hold off two Reapers without much effort and as the Stalker numbers grow, they can start one-shotting Reapers together, which Reapers cannot do in return.
Each Reaper takes 45 seconds to build, compared to 42 seconds for a Stalker (out of a Gateway).
If the MSC or Proxy Oracle arrives, you have nothing to defend yourself with.
Since all your gas is going into Reapers (delaying all tech) you can't get a Factory and Widow Mines out.
This leaves only Turrets as your defense, which further eat into your minerals and an Oracle/MSC can still choose to camp over any area that isn't defended by Turrets. The fastest Proxy Oracle hits at 5:05 so you have to have a Turret completed by then, meaning the Engineering Bay has to start at around 4:05 at the latest.
Even if you have all that, the Oracle can just turn around and defend at home, since your Reapers can't shoot the Oracle.
Against a Nexus first or no Stalker/MSC, it can be effective since Reapers can easily kite Zealots and then start to kill Probes, but Stalkers and MSC just shut this down too easily and it does not require deviation for Protoss.
For Terran however, going for more than one Reaper is a serious deviation, delaying Marine production, Factory/Starport timing, stim/combat shield and any upgrades. The amount of damage you have to do compared to how easily it is to hold off for Protoss makes it rarely worth it.
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EPT
