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United States4883 Posts
On March 25 2014 11:55 alpenrahm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2014 11:55 SC2John wrote:
The way I deal with mass reapers is just going immortals + blink and go immortal/blink stalker allin ~10:00. Reapers cannot base trade or defend efficiently enough to win. Also, as has been pointed out, any air units at all in the Terran main end the game.
Mass reapers in TvP is cute but in no way viable. Period! i d like to point out though, that reapers + 20 scvs will probably deflect your all in. Just because scvs are pound per pound stronger then stalkers.
Not at all. Blink stalkers/immortals are far superior to SCVs, especially when you can blink micro and use FF. And no amount of bunkers will save the Terran from 4 immortals.
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On March 25 2014 05:03 SatedSC2 wrote:
I'm not so sure about the viability of mass Reaper in the lategame,
I concur, mass reaper late game couldn't deal with colossus properly. However, mass turrets and OCs can be built with the excess minerals.
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I use this strategy from a friend of mine for 8 month now and it has been very effective so far. It's not "mass reaper" but you can start with a healthy 8-9 reaper squad. This is very effective because you put constant pressure and force protoss into defensive position from the begining of the game.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/409905-3-rax-reaper-opening-in-all-mu
The thread is a little bit old and outdated but the build is still the same. There is adaptation to be made to defend oracle / blink allin but I had a lot of sucess with it deflecting protoss allins because of the amazing amount of scout this strategy provides.
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On March 25 2014 14:12 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2014 11:55 alpenrahm wrote:On March 25 2014 11:55 SC2John wrote:
The way I deal with mass reapers is just going immortals + blink and go immortal/blink stalker allin ~10:00. Reapers cannot base trade or defend efficiently enough to win. Also, as has been pointed out, any air units at all in the Terran main end the game.
Mass reapers in TvP is cute but in no way viable. Period! i d like to point out though, that reapers + 20 scvs will probably deflect your all in. Just because scvs are pound per pound stronger then stalkers. Not at all. Blink stalkers/immortals are far superior to SCVs, especially when you can blink micro and use FF. And no amount of bunkers will save the Terran from 4 immortals.
Are you doing this all-in off a 1 gate expand? Because in my experience with mass reapers is that you force lots of stalkers from protoss if they don't want to lose straight away and as a result their tech/production is pretty delayed.
http://drop.sc/377490
In this game against a masters toss although I do almost no economic damage the indirect damage I do to his tech+production sets him far back enough that I am able to play out the game and eventually win. He is on 3 gates until about 9 minutes when he starts his twilight+forge. Admittedly he was floating a lot of gas so its likely that he could have teched faster if he was playing better but I don't see realistically how a protoss can have 4 immortals+lots of blink stalkers at 10 minutes while dealing with reaper harass leading up to that point.
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On March 25 2014 20:15 Clarty wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2014 14:12 SC2John wrote:On March 25 2014 11:55 alpenrahm wrote:On March 25 2014 11:55 SC2John wrote:
The way I deal with mass reapers is just going immortals + blink and go immortal/blink stalker allin ~10:00. Reapers cannot base trade or defend efficiently enough to win. Also, as has been pointed out, any air units at all in the Terran main end the game.
Mass reapers in TvP is cute but in no way viable. Period! i d like to point out though, that reapers + 20 scvs will probably deflect your all in. Just because scvs are pound per pound stronger then stalkers. Not at all. Blink stalkers/immortals are far superior to SCVs, especially when you can blink micro and use FF. And no amount of bunkers will save the Terran from 4 immortals. Are you doing this all-in off a 1 gate expand? Because in my experience with mass reapers is that you force lots of stalkers from protoss if they don't want to lose straight away and as a result their tech/production is pretty delayed. http://drop.sc/377490In this game against a masters toss although I do almost no economic damage the indirect damage I do to his tech+production sets him far back enough that I am able to play out the game and eventually win. He is on 3 gates until about 9 minutes when he starts his twilight+forge. Admittedly he was floating a lot of gas so its likely that he could have teched faster if he was playing better but I don't see realistically how a protoss can have 4 immortals+lots of blink stalkers at 10 minutes while dealing with reaper harass leading up to that point.
thx for the backup.
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On March 25 2014 14:25 MrBarryObama wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2014 05:03 SatedSC2 wrote:
I'm not so sure about the viability of mass Reaper in the lategame, I concur, mass reaper late game couldn't deal with colossus properly. However, mass turrets and OCs can be built with the excess minerals.
i have a lot of excess production time on my starport ... for vikings. guess those are ok against colossus?
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On March 25 2014 14:12 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2014 11:55 alpenrahm wrote:On March 25 2014 11:55 SC2John wrote:
The way I deal with mass reapers is just going immortals + blink and go immortal/blink stalker allin ~10:00. Reapers cannot base trade or defend efficiently enough to win. Also, as has been pointed out, any air units at all in the Terran main end the game.
Mass reapers in TvP is cute but in no way viable. Period! i d like to point out though, that reapers + 20 scvs will probably deflect your all in. Just because scvs are pound per pound stronger then stalkers. Not at all. Blink stalkers/immortals are far superior to SCVs, especially when you can blink micro and use FF. And no amount of bunkers will save the Terran from 4 immortals.
must. not. build. bunker. ever.
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United States4883 Posts
On March 25 2014 20:15 Clarty wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2014 14:12 SC2John wrote:On March 25 2014 11:55 alpenrahm wrote:On March 25 2014 11:55 SC2John wrote:
The way I deal with mass reapers is just going immortals + blink and go immortal/blink stalker allin ~10:00. Reapers cannot base trade or defend efficiently enough to win. Also, as has been pointed out, any air units at all in the Terran main end the game.
Mass reapers in TvP is cute but in no way viable. Period! i d like to point out though, that reapers + 20 scvs will probably deflect your all in. Just because scvs are pound per pound stronger then stalkers. Not at all. Blink stalkers/immortals are far superior to SCVs, especially when you can blink micro and use FF. And no amount of bunkers will save the Terran from 4 immortals. Are you doing this all-in off a 1 gate expand? Because in my experience with mass reapers is that you force lots of stalkers from protoss if they don't want to lose straight away and as a result their tech/production is pretty delayed. http://drop.sc/377490In this game against a masters toss although I do almost no economic damage the indirect damage I do to his tech+production sets him far back enough that I am able to play out the game and eventually win. He is on 3 gates until about 9 minutes when he starts his twilight+forge. Admittedly he was floating a lot of gas so its likely that he could have teched faster if he was playing better but I don't see realistically how a protoss can have 4 immortals+lots of blink stalkers at 10 minutes while dealing with reaper harass leading up to that point.
Yeah, he's really bad and overreacted.
1) 9 scout WHATTTT lol
2) completely skipped a tech building; you don't need 3 gateways that early, even against reaper harass
3) late MSC/late photon overcharge and time warp
In a more standard game, the Protoss isn't going to put himself behind so economically or completely skip tech. Robo goes down at 5:00, constant immortals (55 sec build time + chronoboost) gives you 4 immortals by 10:00. An immortal + ~4 stalkers can comfortably defend a mineral line, especially if you have a photon overcharge or time warp available. Also, the earliest possible oracle arrives at 5:15. So it's great and all that you have an ebay done at that time, but you're going to lose ~8 workers minimum anyway because you don't scout; it's fine to take blind losses, but don't assert that proxy oracle is counterable with this build because it's not.
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On March 26 2014 01:14 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2014 20:15 Clarty wrote:On March 25 2014 14:12 SC2John wrote:On March 25 2014 11:55 alpenrahm wrote:On March 25 2014 11:55 SC2John wrote:
The way I deal with mass reapers is just going immortals + blink and go immortal/blink stalker allin ~10:00. Reapers cannot base trade or defend efficiently enough to win. Also, as has been pointed out, any air units at all in the Terran main end the game.
Mass reapers in TvP is cute but in no way viable. Period! i d like to point out though, that reapers + 20 scvs will probably deflect your all in. Just because scvs are pound per pound stronger then stalkers. Not at all. Blink stalkers/immortals are far superior to SCVs, especially when you can blink micro and use FF. And no amount of bunkers will save the Terran from 4 immortals. Are you doing this all-in off a 1 gate expand? Because in my experience with mass reapers is that you force lots of stalkers from protoss if they don't want to lose straight away and as a result their tech/production is pretty delayed. http://drop.sc/377490In this game against a masters toss although I do almost no economic damage the indirect damage I do to his tech+production sets him far back enough that I am able to play out the game and eventually win. He is on 3 gates until about 9 minutes when he starts his twilight+forge. Admittedly he was floating a lot of gas so its likely that he could have teched faster if he was playing better but I don't see realistically how a protoss can have 4 immortals+lots of blink stalkers at 10 minutes while dealing with reaper harass leading up to that point. Yeah, he's really bad and overreacted. 1) 9 scout WHATTTT lol 2) completely skipped a tech building; you don't need 3 gateways that early, even against reaper harass 3) late MSC/late photon overcharge and time warp In a more standard game, the Protoss isn't going to put himself behind so economically or completely skip tech. Robo goes down at 5:00, constant immortals (55 sec build time + chronoboost) gives you 4 immortals by 10:00. An immortal + ~4 stalkers can comfortably defend a mineral line, especially if you have a photon overcharge or time warp available. Also, the earliest possible oracle arrives at 5:15. So it's great and all that you have an ebay done at that time, but you're going to lose ~8 workers minimum anyway because you don't scout; it's fine to take blind losses, but don't assert that proxy oracle is counterable with this build because it's not.
well, you can´t have the fastest oracle possible. 5:15 would be a proxy that should be scouted and denied by the first couple of reapers. If that happens you autolose the game. So i assume that you are building it inbase; which will be scouted because you don´t have the MSC to deny the scout. Depending on the map that would ideally give terran about a minute to react. Enough to make 6 marines of the already 3 rax. Now you dont have a nexus, not even a stalker - the first one dies to the 3 reaper opening if you play fast stargate- and all that you have going for you is an oracle out on the map. The response to this will then be to resume reaper production after 6 marines, turrets -ebay is started immediately after scouting the SG- and a factory for agressive mines to zone out the oracles. It´s just ugly, you are down on bases and facing a Terran with 3 rax, more scvs then you have probes, a factory coming up, +1 on the way and turret+mine deflecting your air. You will then eventually just die to any push at all.
as for that 10 minute 4 immortal 4 stalker push, its just not going to work. First off all, you are assuming that you don´t lose any stalkers at all which is atleast unlikely. Then, at 10 minutes you will already be facing about 20 reapers and 15 scvs plus you wont have any zealots or proxy pylons for support. As for defense, your immortals are actually hurting you. They are slow and can´t ever keep up with the reapers so you will eventually run out of energy on your MSC and will have to start splitting your army and be very vulnerable to just pure reaper harrasment. Your plan might be a good idea against someone who transitions out of reapers, you will be able to hit a pre stim timing, but against just more reapers its a death trap.
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I guess we need an alpenrahm vs John series to determine who's right. bring it on! 
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On March 26 2014 03:44 tar wrote:I guess we need an alpenrahm vs John series to determine who's right. bring it on!
that would be totally awesome ! sc2 john, the NEMESIS, to be overcome to prove a point 
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well, now we know how marineking's next tvp is going to go!
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On March 25 2014 11:52 alpenrahm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2014 11:00 Danglars wrote:
The incredibly common ideas of (1) Get a mothership core for defense and (2) Open Oracle before or after expanding present great problems that you have not addressed with discussion or good replays in your post.
The only other option would be to accept a hefty economic penalty by immediately switching to marines and hopefully having 6 before his oracle comes (let's say his foolishly loses the stalker). This opening is much inferior to expanding and then adding on rax in that situation. With chronos and strategic retreats of the stalker to mineral line (outranges, isn't easily bursted down with careful control), you aren't guaranteed high damage. well, im confident that i would be able to scout a proxy stargate and deny its production! and as for replays, i just didn´t encounter oracle play yet ^^ but i assume he wont have a MSC and an oracle and an expansion and enough stalkers to deal with my 3 reapers so his losses should be pretty even to mine with propper micro. But this is all theory craft, i have no idea how it would actually play out... maybe i could somehow get turrets in time? maybe he just dies? maybe i just bo lose? who knows ...
It doesn't even have to be proxied. In this case it's even better if it isn't. You have no way of preventing the probe from seeing the second rax. The protoss player has seen two raxes and gas, he knows to play defensively with his first two stalkers, spend chrono on the second (or if he uses MSC at first, chronoes that out).
Your losses are: Your main SCV line, your first marines, and the game. Don't kid yourself about scouting and unpowering the stargate before the first oracle out. That's lucky find, bad proxy, bad stalker control, or bad build from the Protoss. Your opening is weak compared to the standards and other "standard" cheeses.
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Hey Alpenrahm,
When do you get your 2nd gas with this build, in a typical mass reaper TvP game? Sorry if I missed this somewhere - don't have access to replays right now.
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On March 26 2014 05:24 Infinite976 wrote:
Hey Alpenrahm,
When do you get your 2nd gas with this build, in a typical mass reaper TvP game? Sorry if I missed this somewhere - don't have access to replays right now.
i get the second gas after the cc, at the same time as the 3rd rax
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On March 26 2014 04:59 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2014 11:52 alpenrahm wrote:On March 25 2014 11:00 Danglars wrote:
The incredibly common ideas of (1) Get a mothership core for defense and (2) Open Oracle before or after expanding present great problems that you have not addressed with discussion or good replays in your post.
The only other option would be to accept a hefty economic penalty by immediately switching to marines and hopefully having 6 before his oracle comes (let's say his foolishly loses the stalker). This opening is much inferior to expanding and then adding on rax in that situation. With chronos and strategic retreats of the stalker to mineral line (outranges, isn't easily bursted down with careful control), you aren't guaranteed high damage. well, im confident that i would be able to scout a proxy stargate and deny its production! and as for replays, i just didn´t encounter oracle play yet ^^ but i assume he wont have a MSC and an oracle and an expansion and enough stalkers to deal with my 3 reapers so his losses should be pretty even to mine with propper micro. But this is all theory craft, i have no idea how it would actually play out... maybe i could somehow get turrets in time? maybe he just dies? maybe i just bo lose? who knows ... It doesn't even have to be proxied. In this case it's even better if it isn't. You have no way of preventing the probe from seeing the second rax. The protoss player has seen two raxes and gas, he knows to play defensively with his first two stalkers, spend chrono on the second (or if he uses MSC at first, chronoes that out). Your losses are: Your main SCV line, your first marines, and the game. Don't kid yourself about scouting and unpowering the stargate before the first oracle out. That's lucky find, bad proxy, bad stalker control, or bad build from the Protoss. Your opening is weak compared to the standards and other "standard" cheeses.
ok. another disbeliever
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The beauty of this game is that you can develop your own strats such as this. I would have personally kept it a secret if you are winning so much
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On March 26 2014 05:33 Ctone23 wrote:The beauty of this game is that you can develop your own strats such as this. I would have personally kept it a secret if you are winning so much
qxc has streamed mass reaper on gm ladder so it's not a secret. lol. builds like these are never "secrets," they're just things that are semi-viable on ladder against people who don't know how to react. nothing wrong with that as long as a) OP admits his build is NOT some secret formula that korean terrans should be using in proleague and b) detractors admit that there's nothing wrong with using goofy builds on ladder if you can win with them
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On March 26 2014 07:19 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2014 05:33 Ctone23 wrote:The beauty of this game is that you can develop your own strats such as this. I would have personally kept it a secret if you are winning so much qxc has streamed mass reaper on gm ladder so it's not a secret. lol. builds like these are never "secrets," they're just things that are semi-viable on ladder against people who don't know how to react. nothing wrong with that as long as a) OP admits his build is NOT some secret formula that korean terrans should be using in proleague and b) detractors admit that there's nothing wrong with using goofy builds on ladder if you can win with them
lol.... well yea mass reaper is obviously not a secret... I think you read a little too much in my comment xD
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I just got hit with this on ladder but it's really up to me to not play like an idiot. If I respond correctly I win but it's definitely a fun stye.
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EPT
