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[G] Incubus' TvP Sky Terran: The Guide - Page 2

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Mahtasooma
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany475 Posts
January 21 2014 22:25 GMT
#21
Nice writeup.

But the fact that Skyterran even remotely makes sense against a race that has a very cheap antiair unit that does extra damage vs armored makes it kinda weird.
http://twitch.tv/mahtasooma
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
January 22 2014 02:05 GMT
#22
Seems like the style is inherently difficult to execute which makes me wonder if it's really suitable for anyone below high diamond.
IncubusSC
Profile Joined December 2013
Canada57 Posts
January 22 2014 07:21 GMT
#23
On January 22 2014 06:38 MrBarryObama wrote:
Nice build. Very cool! Never thought to HSM high temps. Can't split those fools. As you mentioned, phoenixes wreck your composition, but are only good on the defense. On offense, turrets wreck them.

To play against your style, your opponents needed to have better map presence. A lot of them allowed you to take additional bases uncontested.

Nice work!



Thanks Obama
"Growing old is natural, growing up is optional."
IncubusSC
Profile Joined December 2013
Canada57 Posts
January 22 2014 07:22 GMT
#24
On January 22 2014 11:05 Doodsmack wrote:
Seems like the style is inherently difficult to execute which makes me wonder if it's really suitable for anyone below high diamond.


I did it all the way up to high diamond, don't see why anyone else can't.
"Growing old is natural, growing up is optional."
RyLai
Profile Joined May 2011
United States477 Posts
January 22 2014 12:24 GMT
#25
On January 21 2014 10:19 IncubusSC wrote:
Balance barely affect players below mid-masters any ways so that's not the reason I'm losing.


Uhhhh... What? Balance affects EVERYONE because EVERYONE plays the same game. Yes, it affects the various skills levels to different degrees, but it still affects everyone.

Given 2 players of equal skill, if one is completely destroying the other, there is something completely wrong with the game. But what do we consider two players of equal skill? Well, say we had 2 players who, given a random patch, play evenly with each other. They share a 50% winrate against each other when using various strategies.

Then, Blizzard buffs one of their races. Then the balance shifts away from one player. They buff the race again. Then the other player struggles to keep up. They buff the race yet again, and the other player isn't even a challenge to play against. To say that balance only affects people above mid-masters is like saying nutritional balance only affects the rich. Doesn't matter what we feed the poor people, they're gonna have health problems anyway right, so why bother giving them anything healthy? I don't see any stats or abilities on any of the units say (+5 damage when your opponent is in Masters, and +10 damage when they are in GM).
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
January 22 2014 15:16 GMT
#26
On January 22 2014 21:24 RyLai wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2014 10:19 IncubusSC wrote:
Balance barely affect players below mid-masters any ways so that's not the reason I'm losing.


Uhhhh... What? Balance affects EVERYONE because EVERYONE plays the same game. Yes, it affects the various skills levels to different degrees, but it still affects everyone.

Given 2 players of equal skill, if one is completely destroying the other, there is something completely wrong with the game. But what do we consider two players of equal skill? Well, say we had 2 players who, given a random patch, play evenly with each other. They share a 50% winrate against each other when using various strategies.

Then, Blizzard buffs one of their races. Then the balance shifts away from one player. They buff the race again. Then the other player struggles to keep up. They buff the race yet again, and the other player isn't even a challenge to play against. To say that balance only affects people above mid-masters is like saying nutritional balance only affects the rich. Doesn't matter what we feed the poor people, they're gonna have health problems anyway right, so why bother giving them anything healthy? I don't see any stats or abilities on any of the units say (+5 damage when your opponent is in Masters, and +10 damage when they are in GM).


IMO when skill-level is below mid master, the mistakes made are so significant that they far outweigh game balance in influencing the outcome of the game.
IncubusSC
Profile Joined December 2013
Canada57 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-22 17:55:02
January 22 2014 17:22 GMT
#27
On January 22 2014 21:24 RyLai wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2014 10:19 IncubusSC wrote:
Balance barely affect players below mid-masters any ways so that's not the reason I'm losing.


Uhhhh... What? Balance affects EVERYONE because EVERYONE plays the same game. Yes, it affects the various skills levels to different degrees, but it still affects everyone.

Given 2 players of equal skill, if one is completely destroying the other, there is something completely wrong with the game. But what do we consider two players of equal skill? Well, say we had 2 players who, given a random patch, play evenly with each other. They share a 50% winrate against each other when using various strategies.

Then, Blizzard buffs one of their races. Then the balance shifts away from one player. They buff the race again. Then the other player struggles to keep up. They buff the race yet again, and the other player isn't even a challenge to play against. To say that balance only affects people above mid-masters is like saying nutritional balance only affects the rich. Doesn't matter what we feed the poor people, they're gonna have health problems anyway right, so why bother giving them anything healthy? I don't see any stats or abilities on any of the units say (+5 damage when your opponent is in Masters, and +10 damage when they are in GM).


Did you even read exactly what I said? I said balance BARELY affects anyone below mid-masters. Everybody below mid-masters has such bad macro and has so much room to improve that the current level of balances and any potential changes that are made are irrelevant.
"Growing old is natural, growing up is optional."
hellokitty[hk]
Profile Joined June 2009
United States1309 Posts
January 22 2014 19:39 GMT
#28
What do you do if they open blink?
People are imbeciles, lucky thing god made cats.
IncubusSC
Profile Joined December 2013
Canada57 Posts
January 22 2014 20:06 GMT
#29
On January 23 2014 04:39 hellokitty[hk] wrote:
What do you do if they open blink?


Are you the hellokitty like the pro? If so, hey ! Well I haven't really experienced Blink with the 1 rax FE so I can't say anything there. I usually open 1-1-1 pressure now with widow mines or hellions or banshees. So I get damage done and force them to get detection so their Blink attack is weakened or delayed too long.
"Growing old is natural, growing up is optional."
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
January 23 2014 04:50 GMT
#30
Like the question with blink, I'm very curious with replays in the echelons above yours. If it can survive a diverse array of allins or heavy pressure present in some protoss midgame strategies, that should carry on through to the higher leagues.

We just saw Blink utilized to destroy Innovation twice in TvP and knock him out of Code A. 1-1-1 is infamously weak against that kind of play (no marauders, can blink-cancel widow mines, lack of bio early in general), so replays would be appreciated. It's really even hard to support the argument that pressure weakens the attack, since no detection and only careful defensive play is necessary to stop your early damage.

Granted, if they ignore you and take a fast third for the first 20 minutes, I'm sure you can have enough in the air to comfortably fight from that moment on. Compare this to the Mech(+sky) vs Protoss thread. The WoL version thoroughly goes over surviving the midgame to reach hardy endgame, something lacking here.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
IncubusSC
Profile Joined December 2013
Canada57 Posts
February 02 2014 23:16 GMT
#31
Added a new macro replay with early pressure examples.
"Growing old is natural, growing up is optional."
Lazuras
Profile Joined November 2012
Sweden52 Posts
February 06 2014 16:07 GMT
#32
im very facinated by this build, it works fine, except against blink all in.. can anybody shed some light on how to defend that?
IncubusSC
Profile Joined December 2013
Canada57 Posts
February 06 2014 19:22 GMT
#33
On February 07 2014 01:07 Lazuras wrote:
im very facinated by this build, it works fine, except against blink all in.. can anybody shed some light on how to defend that?


I've faced it quite a few times and it is pretty hard to survive yes. I've been able to hold it off and delay it though by Cloak Banshee aggression and early pressure.

I typically open Marine/Mine/Medivac so against 1 Base I delay the build because I'm forcing them to invest into detection and keep some Stalkers/Mothership Core on defense. This allows me to get enough Cloak Banshees/a few turrets up at home to make their attack either weak or undoable. They need to have an observer with their attack, so that's 200/100 + 75 either before or after their Blink investment and also less Stalkers.

Against 2 Base MMM pressure does alright but the defensive investment is a little easier for them, it also helps out to deal with the Cloak Banshee follow up but they'll need to leave either an observer in each mineral line and a stalker (a chunk of gas) or get a forge/cannon. Which can be alright depending on the map but I'm pretty good at finding weak points to get probe kills in.

I do have trouble against Protoss that are naturally ultra-defensive and blindly open 1 Gate FE into Robo > then Blink Stalker 2 base all-in.
"Growing old is natural, growing up is optional."
IncubusSC
Profile Joined December 2013
Canada57 Posts
February 06 2014 19:38 GMT
#34
Added two long macro replays, a win and a loss. Shows both races successfully playing the ultra late game.
"Growing old is natural, growing up is optional."
-Hammer-
Profile Joined January 2013
Canada107 Posts
March 19 2014 06:08 GMT
#35
Saw the build today. Looks like a fun, interesting build. What do you find in the late game is hardest to deal with?
Grand Master Terran
agahamsorr0w
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands359 Posts
March 19 2014 07:33 GMT
#36
On January 21 2014 12:18 IncubusSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2014 12:00 NintendoStar wrote:
On January 21 2014 10:19 IncubusSC wrote:
On January 21 2014 10:14 NintendoStar wrote:
On January 21 2014 09:27 IncubusSC wrote:
On January 21 2014 00:38 xRiotZx wrote:
I'm afraid this is great in concept, using banshees as a sort of hardcounter to stalkers, that are also mobile like mutalisks, and give you great harass potential, but I really don't see how you could survive the early game with this composition. He's going to have way more stalkers than you have banshees, and you're not going to get a good concave in the open field, not to mention if he has blink... You're shit out of luck, and blink all ins are pretty common in PvT.

I usually play mech in TvP (with huge success late game) and even that is incredibly difficult to open with... With the combined mech upgrades, it's probably a lot smarter to just mix air/ground mech, for a good composition.

You detailed the strengths of Phoenixes, though something you're ignoring is that you won't have PDD in every engagement, if you drop a PDD your enemy will likely run away and re-engage when feasible, or attack you somewhere weak, and due to their mobility and cost effectiveness against all Terran air, (except BCs) I see them just shitting all over this.

I'm also Top 8 Diamond if you were wondering.


I agree the early game is kind of fragile but that is a balance issue and until Blizzard fixes it it will just be a weakness. Blink Stalker all-ins are potent yes but if you get good damage in with hellions/mines/or cloak banshees it is possible to hold. Especially if you snipe their obs.

I know I won't have PDD all the time but that is mainly what the Ravens are for, and I'm really careful about what battles I pick and where I pick them so my Raven energy doesn't go to waste.

Did you really just say that this build having a fragile opening is a balance issue that Blizzard needs to fix? I'm going to start going 3 nexus before gateway and if I have trouble then I'm just going to wait until Blizzard fixes that balance issue. That's ridiculous. Let's focus on how to make the opener more stable instead of blaming it on balance.



Terran vs Protoss early game is fragile and slightly imbalanced and designed poorly, if you've watched the Pro scene for the past 3 months. Protoss have all-ins that can outright end a game and Terran can't end the game with a 1 base all in period because of nexus cannon (hell even 6/7 of these maps in the pool just scream Blink Stalker all-in there is barely any risk to doing it blindly). Balance barely affect players below mid-masters any ways so that's not the reason I'm losing. Any ways I'm not going to respond to anything you say on this topic. I'm not going to have my thread derailed.

I am not "derailing" your topic, there was no talk of balance until you brought it up. And the whole point of my post was to point out that we shouldn't be discussing balance here.

Also I am a little confused. In your guide you mention that despite what others think, a 1 rax expand is viable, but now you're saying that protoss all-ins are too powerful. If that's the case then why do you promote 1 rax expanding?


You don't auto-lose if you don't go Reaper expand. You can scout viably with an SCV.


thats true for you. but in high level tvp, scv scout+reaper scout are essential to identify the build of the protoss and scout around for proxy robo or stargate.
Jakamakala
Profile Joined July 2011
United States115 Posts
March 16 2015 23:30 GMT
#37
With the new meta of TvP nowadays being WM centric in the early game and Protoss being more passive, what are your thoughts on bringing out this style now that stuff like Blink All In's and Immortal Busts have died down.

Have you thought about implementing more WM now that they do additional damage to shields?
Odowan Paleolithic
Profile Blog Joined May 2013
United States232 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-17 01:47:28
March 17 2015 01:43 GMT
#38
On March 17 2015 08:30 Jakamakala wrote:
With the new meta of TvP nowadays being WM centric in the early game and Protoss being more passive, what are your thoughts on bringing out this style now that stuff like Blink All In's and Immortal Busts have died down.

Have you thought about implementing more WM now that they do additional damage to shields?


Are you seriously bringing this up when trap can bust out 16 kill oracles? Banshee will be completely scouted and what how do you defend the counter push? Or against the likes of Jim with phoenix collosi thanks to the current drop favoring map pool?

Did you watch Maru vs Stats?

I need a bigger fridge. I cannot hold all the Cheese that are given to me.
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