Hello, I'm Incubus and I'm going to teach you a new way to play Terran vs Protoss. I'm going to do my best to explain the ins and outs of Sky Terran, and why it's an awesome and viable style to play against Protoss. Hopefully by the end of this (and after some practice) you will no longer be forced into the struggles of Bio in TvP. Keep in mind this is for High-Diamond players and below. By no means is this the best strategy ever that will help get you into Masters. I simply want to expose to Terran players that you do not have to play only Bio vs Protoss.
So what is it? - TvP Sky Terran is a potent passive/aggressive style of play that is essentially (and obviously) a Starport based unit composition. It revolves heavily around Cloaked Banshees as your core unit with Viking and Raven support. Eventually if all goes well you will have Battle-cruisers as your core end-game unit.
༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Give The Power Of Sky Terran ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ - With knowledgeable and correctly executed micro this unit composition can trade extremely cost effectively and outright dominate engagements. It offers very formidable harassment, and in the mid-game and beyond you will have EXTREMELY powerful defense, to the point where Protoss simply can't attack you. This style of play doesn't rely on having tons of speed as a player, so you can successfully pull it off with roughly 75-90 APM at the minimum. This unit composition also has good mobility and micro potential due to the ability to ignore terrain.
ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ Raise Your Weaknesses ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ - Like any double edged sword failure to properly micro your units can be game ending. It isn't as hard as Bio however so don't fret. The early game is fairly fragile so failure to properly scout and prepare for quick proxies and all-ins can result in a quick loss or just give you a really hard time. You also must be very on top of exactly what units and how many of them make or you will lose. This isn't Bio, you can't just select your barracks and spam DDAAAADDAAA etc. Sky Terran also requires very good decision making on when to harass, attack and defend. A bad mistake can end the game outright.
The Units:
Banshees - The bread and butter of Sky Terran. This is the unit you want your Starports to be pumping. They're great on harass and they trade cost effectively with Stalkers, the most common Protoss AA. They do fairly well against HT and Archons but you MUST micro them. Utilizing and abusing cloak is a skill you will need to practice to make this unit reap it's full potential. Vikings - Your core support. They trade cost for cost against Phoenix, Void Rays (If kited), Carriers, and Tempests. With your almost always superior air upgrades and production Vikings are great AA against Stargate units. Ravens - The Angels from the clouds. You always want a couple Ravens for PDD which mitigates a handful of Stalker and Phoenix damage, as well as to hard counter Tempests should they hit the field. It will also detect for Observers so you don't need to constantly scan your opponent's army to snipe them. Seeker Missile is also very good vs Void Rays, High Templar, Carriers and Tempests. Don't use them against Phoenix though as it's a waste of energy. Battle-cruisers - Battle-cruiser operational! The unit you want a fair count of in the end-game. They soak up insane amounts of damage and because they stay alive so long they usually kill enough to pay for themselves too. You mainly want them as sponges though while your Banshees, Vikings and Ravens dish the damage. Remember to prioritize your Yamato Cannons on high HP targets like Archons, Carriers, and Tempests. Stalkers - The most common unit you'll face. If you consistently eliminate observers and use PDD's effectively you need not fear this unit. However make sure to utilize terrain to your advantage so you don't get caught by Blink. High Templar - A very common response to Sky Terran. Feedback actually isn't as effective as you think against Banshees due to the sheer number of High Templar and the energy needed to damage the high number of Banshees. Storm however, is very powerful and must be respected. It can be beaten but you absolutely need to split your units and micro well when you're facing them. Archons - Over-Powerered Overwhelming! Definitely a hard unit to face, but with good splitting Banshees trade acceptably well against them. Phoenix - The best unit Protoss has against you before Battle-cruisers hit the field. Vikings and a PDD or two will trade fine but DO NOT engage if you know you're going to lose the air battle or you will lose your entire army due to their hyper-mobility. Void Rays - A decent unit but not very scary if you have a good Viking count and Seeker/Kite them. Carriers - I don't really see these much due to them being notoriously bad. Just make sure to focus fire with Vikings, Yamatos, and Seeker Missles and they shouldn't be a problem. Tempests - Not as great as people make them out to be. PDD is ultra effective at soaking Tempest fire and Vikings, Yamato and Seeker Missle is ample enough to deal with them.
IMPORTANT NOTES, MUST READ: - You will have plenty of extra minerals with this style so do not hesitate to spam turrets, extra OB's, and supply depot walls. You shouldn't be using very many Mules once you're on full 2 base saturation. - -- You should always have a scan or two for sniping observers and getting scouting information on his army for his unit composition and to gain positional advantages. - Adding Sensor Towers is also a very good defensive investment. They make defending harass very easy and will give you a heads up to split and Cloak your units. - Use your PDD's and Seekers ONLY when you know an engagement is forced. Raven energy is important because you might get Feedbacked and you won't have a high Raven count until later in the game. - It is absolutely integral that you snipe observers when you engage with your Banshees. - ALWAYS get attack upgrades first. Storm ignores armour and the majority of the engagements in the game rely on your opponent not being able to detect your Banshees, so armour is irrelevant. You want your Banshees and Vikings to be killing Stalkers and Phoenix/Void Rays as fast as possible. Only get double upgrades when you know it's safe to make the investment, if not only have a single armoury. - Only add Battle-cruisers on 10 geysers minimum around 150 supply and when you know it's safe to do so. - Your production should be as follows 1 Base = 2 Starports (2 Tech Labs) 2 Bases = 3-5 Starports (1 Reactor if 5 Starports, Pure Tech Labs if 4 or lower) 3 Bases = 6-7 Starports (1 Reactor Max) 4+ Bases = 8-10 Starports (2 Reactors Max). The reason you want such a minimal amount of Reactors is because they can only make Vikings and because Banshees, Ravens, and Battle-cruisers have long build times.
Opening Build Orders (Sorry I don't know the specific supplies for everything I just follow order of buildings): 1 Rax FE (Yes it's still viable) - (Wall) 10 Supply Depot > 12 Rax > Orbital Command > Supply Depot (To deny scouting on 4 player maps, get the Protoss worried) > CC > Bunker > Double Refinery > Supply Depot > Factory > Reactor on Barracks > 2 Widow Mines for your mineral line encase you suspect Oracles > 2 Starports > 2 Tech-Labs > Cloak/Double Banshee Reaper Expand - (Wall) 10 Supply Depot > 12 Rax > 13 Gas > Orbital Command > Supply Depot (To deny scouting on 4 player maps, get the Protoss worried) > Reactor on Barracks > CC > Bunker > 2nd Refinery > 2 Widow Mines for your mineral line encase you suspect Oracles > 2 Starports > 2 Tech-Labs > Cloak/Double Banshee 1-1-1 - There are simply too many variations for this however opening 10 Supply Depot > 12 Refinery, is recommended to get the quickest Factory possible
Thank you for reading and I hope you enjoy flying with Air Terran . Keep in mind that as you practice this style you're going to start out with some losses getting used to it. It is doable however so don't abandon it after a few games. Please don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions and +1/sticky this guide. I'll update/clean up the thread continuously as I develop the style.
Example Replays (A lot of these opponents are better than their league indicates, due to broken ladder distribution. A lot of these opponents are multiple time High-Diamond/Masters): http://drop.sc/371064 - 1 Rax FE. This is a great example of the defensive power of Sky Terran. The Protoss identifies early what I'm doing and goes double Stargate Phoenix. Although he cuts to many corners on defence and I kill a ton of probes. I attack in the mid game and lose my army and fail to kill the third. However he can't counter attack with his Phoenix. He tries to bust me later but his Phoenix are useless on offence and since he invested so much in them and lost so much eco he can't engage the Banshees. http://drop.sc/371068 - 1 Rax FE. He keeps me on 2 base for a long time. With good micro and harassment though I crawl my way back into the game. This game is a perfect example of how poor pure ground Toss does against Sky Terran. http://drop.sc/371069 - 1 Rax FE. He does a massive Stalker attack in the mid-game but it gets crushed because I eliminate his detection. The rest of the game is a good macro example of Sky Terran. http://drop.sc/371072 - 1 Rax FE. He goes for a 2 base All-In with Immortals, Archons and Stalkers but I hold because he can't detect my army. Good example of Sky Terran defense. http://drop.sc/370675 - 1 Rax FE. Good example game. Close game but I lose do to multiple poor engagements and failure to defend for additional gas. http://drop.sc/371074 - Gas first, Marine Mine Medivac Pressure. The Protoss goes mass Stalker/Carrier. Good example of a macro game. http://drop.sc/371075 - Gas first, Marine Mine Medivac Pressure. The Protoss neglects his defence so my Banshee harass gives me a huge lead. Good example of why pure Stalker is bad. http://drop.sc/371076 - Gas first, Marine Mine Medivac Pressure. The Protoss tries to bust me with a 1 base Immortal attack but he abandons it. He tries to all-in later with a Twilight based army but gets completely shut down. Good example of the defensive power of Sky Terran. http://drop.sc/371078 - Gas first, Marine Mine Medivac Pressure. The Protoss pressures me early with Stalkers and Phoenix contains me from taking a third. http://drop.sc/371104 - Gas first, Marine/Mine/Medivac Pressure. Hectic early game, we both stabilize and play a macro game. Good example of Sky Terran vs Twilight Based play. http://drop.sc/371370 - CC First. Good macro game. Sky Terran vs Sky Toss. I forget Yamato and Hi Sec Auto Tracking sadly but I still win. http://drop.sc/373084 - Gas First, MMM Pressure. Double Cloak Banshee Follow Up. Good example Macro game. http://drop.sc/373244 - Gas first, MMM Pressure. Full map Macro game vs Tempest/Phoenix/Stalker/HT's. It's a 51 minute game so you'll see how ultra-late game Sky Terran functions. http://drop.sc/373292 - Gas first, MMM Pressure. Decent Macro game vs Bnet MVP TheSkunk. He gets a really good composition and widdles my army down. I run out of gas.
Love to see some new suggestions coming to the strategy section! This is a great topic as mech today really relies on banshees to kill immortals and they are a key unit in mech tvp. The build does have place to grow, like how to hold agaisnt different all-ins (1/2 base blink all-in seems dangerous) and how to deal with airtoss or anti air toss (void/phoenix/archon/templar/tempest/carrier). Also, have you tried using ghosts as these also have cloak, emp and even nukes. How do you deal with a heavy amount of cannons?
Will definitely try this as Bio alone is getting boring, and mixing in random Widow Mines or Hellbats just doesn't cut it! I imagine the trickiest part will be exactly how much bio/factory units you need to get to survive the early game.
On January 20 2014 06:36 Zeweig wrote: Love to see some new suggestions coming to the strategy section! This is a great topic as mech today really relies on banshees to kill immortals and they are a key unit in mech tvp. The build does have place to grow, like how to hold agaisnt different all-ins (1/2 base blink all-in seems dangerous) and how to deal with airtoss or anti air toss (void/phoenix/archon/templar/tempest/carrier). Also, have you tried using ghosts as these also have cloak, emp and even nukes. How do you deal with a heavy amount of cannons?
Cheers on fun style!
Yea some all-ins can give me problems with this style. However if I'm good enough with my harassment and keep them from executing their all-in correctly I can hold it.
I usually will win the air vs air battle due to superior production and upgrades if I do my timings right.
I haven't experimented with Ghosts at all yet but I probly should, just feel more comfortable with more gas and apm going towards Sky Terran.
If I'm active with my Banshee squads cannons aren't a problem but they are if you sit back and don't harass.
On January 20 2014 06:47 jubil wrote: Will definitely try this as Bio alone is getting boring, and mixing in random Widow Mines or Hellbats just doesn't cut it! I imagine the trickiest part will be exactly how much bio/factory units you need to get to survive the early game.
Yea I usually get some hellions for harass early and some widow mines to deny Oracles to save the minerals to get a 3rd CC or more production.
this is a nice start for a guide to build upon. You should add some macro benchmarks and attack timings though because so far this is merely a stub guide. For example, from your replays I judge you like to open with marine mine medivac pressure yet your guide basically says nothing about that.
Keep it coming, I am sure many ppl are interested in new ways to play TvP!
I'm afraid this is great in concept, using banshees as a sort of hardcounter to stalkers, that are also mobile like mutalisks, and give you great harass potential, but I really don't see how you could survive the early game with this composition. He's going to have way more stalkers than you have banshees, and you're not going to get a good concave in the open field, not to mention if he has blink... You're shit out of luck, and blink all ins are pretty common in PvT.
I usually play mech in TvP (with huge success late game) and even that is incredibly difficult to open with... With the combined mech upgrades, it's probably a lot smarter to just mix air/ground mech, for a good composition.
You detailed the strengths of Phoenixes, though something you're ignoring is that you won't have PDD in every engagement, if you drop a PDD your enemy will likely run away and re-engage when feasible, or attack you somewhere weak, and due to their mobility and cost effectiveness against all Terran air, (except BCs) I see them just shitting all over this.
On January 21 2014 00:38 xRiotZx wrote: I'm afraid this is great in concept, using banshees as a sort of hardcounter to stalkers, that are also mobile like mutalisks, and give you great harass potential, but I really don't see how you could survive the early game with this composition. He's going to have way more stalkers than you have banshees, and you're not going to get a good concave in the open field, not to mention if he has blink... You're shit out of luck, and blink all ins are pretty common in PvT.
I usually play mech in TvP (with huge success late game) and even that is incredibly difficult to open with... With the combined mech upgrades, it's probably a lot smarter to just mix air/ground mech, for a good composition.
You detailed the strengths of Phoenixes, though something you're ignoring is that you won't have PDD in every engagement, if you drop a PDD your enemy will likely run away and re-engage when feasible, or attack you somewhere weak, and due to their mobility and cost effectiveness against all Terran air, (except BCs) I see them just shitting all over this.
I'm also Top 8 Diamond if you were wondering.
I think most builds have weaknesses and can be hard countered by an opponents all-in. I agree though, TvP air is pretty difficult to pull off. Great to see some effort put into the guide, I will definitely take a look at the replays when I get off work xD
On January 21 2014 00:38 xRiotZx wrote: I'm afraid this is great in concept, using banshees as a sort of hardcounter to stalkers, that are also mobile like mutalisks, and give you great harass potential, but I really don't see how you could survive the early game with this composition. He's going to have way more stalkers than you have banshees, and you're not going to get a good concave in the open field, not to mention if he has blink... You're shit out of luck, and blink all ins are pretty common in PvT.
I usually play mech in TvP (with huge success late game) and even that is incredibly difficult to open with... With the combined mech upgrades, it's probably a lot smarter to just mix air/ground mech, for a good composition.
You detailed the strengths of Phoenixes, though something you're ignoring is that you won't have PDD in every engagement, if you drop a PDD your enemy will likely run away and re-engage when feasible, or attack you somewhere weak, and due to their mobility and cost effectiveness against all Terran air, (except BCs) I see them just shitting all over this.
I'm also Top 8 Diamond if you were wondering.
Wouldn't cloak solve this issue, though? Just scan to kill the obs with a handful of vikings and cloak up to kill the Stalkers. I also feel since this composition is so mineral light you could make a PF for your third instead of OC to mitigate zealot run bys which will inevitabally be an issue.
I play only Sky Terran vs Protoss and have since WoL.
Some tips:
The composition is gas limited, so make all your expansions +building armour PFs. HTs are a great target for seeker missile, because they are slow them clump in the deathball. Always save your units if possible, BCs, Ravens and to a certain extent banshees are slow to replace. Tempests are a nightmare if the Protoss has enough stalkers or phoenix to drain PDDs. You have to be really good at scouting and predicting early Protoss agression as you will not have much map control at all in the early game. Build lots of turrets to kill obs and give you a line to retreat to if Protoss has phoenix.
On January 20 2014 17:15 tar wrote: this is a nice start for a guide to build upon. You should add some macro benchmarks and attack timings though because so far this is merely a stub guide. For example, from your replays I judge you like to open with marine mine medivac pressure yet your guide basically says nothing about that.
Keep it coming, I am sure many ppl are interested in new ways to play TvP!
Thanks. I'll add some information on attack timings later and what not. This is mainly a macro style though, if you can hit a timing that's nice but you're mostly harassing and trying to get a BC/Raven/Viking end game fleet.
On January 21 2014 00:38 xRiotZx wrote: I'm afraid this is great in concept, using banshees as a sort of hardcounter to stalkers, that are also mobile like mutalisks, and give you great harass potential, but I really don't see how you could survive the early game with this composition. He's going to have way more stalkers than you have banshees, and you're not going to get a good concave in the open field, not to mention if he has blink... You're shit out of luck, and blink all ins are pretty common in PvT.
I usually play mech in TvP (with huge success late game) and even that is incredibly difficult to open with... With the combined mech upgrades, it's probably a lot smarter to just mix air/ground mech, for a good composition.
You detailed the strengths of Phoenixes, though something you're ignoring is that you won't have PDD in every engagement, if you drop a PDD your enemy will likely run away and re-engage when feasible, or attack you somewhere weak, and due to their mobility and cost effectiveness against all Terran air, (except BCs) I see them just shitting all over this.
I'm also Top 8 Diamond if you were wondering.
I agree the early game is kind of fragile but that is a balance issue and until Blizzard fixes it it will just be a weakness. Blink Stalker all-ins are potent yes but if you get good damage in with hellions/mines/or cloak banshees it is possible to hold. Especially if you snipe their obs.
I know I won't have PDD all the time but that is mainly what the Ravens are for, and I'm really careful about what battles I pick and where I pick them so my Raven energy doesn't go to waste.
On January 21 2014 00:38 xRiotZx wrote: I'm afraid this is great in concept, using banshees as a sort of hardcounter to stalkers, that are also mobile like mutalisks, and give you great harass potential, but I really don't see how you could survive the early game with this composition. He's going to have way more stalkers than you have banshees, and you're not going to get a good concave in the open field, not to mention if he has blink... You're shit out of luck, and blink all ins are pretty common in PvT.
I usually play mech in TvP (with huge success late game) and even that is incredibly difficult to open with... With the combined mech upgrades, it's probably a lot smarter to just mix air/ground mech, for a good composition.
You detailed the strengths of Phoenixes, though something you're ignoring is that you won't have PDD in every engagement, if you drop a PDD your enemy will likely run away and re-engage when feasible, or attack you somewhere weak, and due to their mobility and cost effectiveness against all Terran air, (except BCs) I see them just shitting all over this.
I'm also Top 8 Diamond if you were wondering.
I agree the early game is kind of fragile but that is a balance issue and until Blizzard fixes it it will just be a weakness. Blink Stalker all-ins are potent yes but if you get good damage in with hellions/mines/or cloak banshees it is possible to hold. Especially if you snipe their obs.
I know I won't have PDD all the time but that is mainly what the Ravens are for, and I'm really careful about what battles I pick and where I pick them so my Raven energy doesn't go to waste.
Did you really just say that this build having a fragile opening is a balance issue that Blizzard needs to fix? I'm going to start going 3 nexus before gateway and if I have trouble then I'm just going to wait until Blizzard fixes that balance issue. That's ridiculous. Let's focus on how to make the opener more stable instead of blaming it on balance.
On January 21 2014 00:38 xRiotZx wrote: I'm afraid this is great in concept, using banshees as a sort of hardcounter to stalkers, that are also mobile like mutalisks, and give you great harass potential, but I really don't see how you could survive the early game with this composition. He's going to have way more stalkers than you have banshees, and you're not going to get a good concave in the open field, not to mention if he has blink... You're shit out of luck, and blink all ins are pretty common in PvT.
I usually play mech in TvP (with huge success late game) and even that is incredibly difficult to open with... With the combined mech upgrades, it's probably a lot smarter to just mix air/ground mech, for a good composition.
You detailed the strengths of Phoenixes, though something you're ignoring is that you won't have PDD in every engagement, if you drop a PDD your enemy will likely run away and re-engage when feasible, or attack you somewhere weak, and due to their mobility and cost effectiveness against all Terran air, (except BCs) I see them just shitting all over this.
I'm also Top 8 Diamond if you were wondering.
I agree the early game is kind of fragile but that is a balance issue and until Blizzard fixes it it will just be a weakness. Blink Stalker all-ins are potent yes but if you get good damage in with hellions/mines/or cloak banshees it is possible to hold. Especially if you snipe their obs.
I know I won't have PDD all the time but that is mainly what the Ravens are for, and I'm really careful about what battles I pick and where I pick them so my Raven energy doesn't go to waste.
Did you really just say that this build having a fragile opening is a balance issue that Blizzard needs to fix? I'm going to start going 3 nexus before gateway and if I have trouble then I'm just going to wait until Blizzard fixes that balance issue. That's ridiculous. Let's focus on how to make the opener more stable instead of blaming it on balance.
Terran vs Protoss early game is fragile and slightly imbalanced and designed poorly, if you've watched the Pro scene for the past 3 months. Protoss have all-ins that can outright end a game and Terran can't end the game with a 1 base all in period because of nexus cannon (hell even 6/7 of these maps in the pool just scream Blink Stalker all-in there is barely any risk to doing it blindly). Balance barely affect players below mid-masters any ways so that's not the reason I'm losing. Any ways I'm not going to respond to anything you say on this topic. I'm not going to have my thread derailed.
On January 21 2014 00:38 xRiotZx wrote: I'm afraid this is great in concept, using banshees as a sort of hardcounter to stalkers, that are also mobile like mutalisks, and give you great harass potential, but I really don't see how you could survive the early game with this composition. He's going to have way more stalkers than you have banshees, and you're not going to get a good concave in the open field, not to mention if he has blink... You're shit out of luck, and blink all ins are pretty common in PvT.
I usually play mech in TvP (with huge success late game) and even that is incredibly difficult to open with... With the combined mech upgrades, it's probably a lot smarter to just mix air/ground mech, for a good composition.
You detailed the strengths of Phoenixes, though something you're ignoring is that you won't have PDD in every engagement, if you drop a PDD your enemy will likely run away and re-engage when feasible, or attack you somewhere weak, and due to their mobility and cost effectiveness against all Terran air, (except BCs) I see them just shitting all over this.
I'm also Top 8 Diamond if you were wondering.
I agree the early game is kind of fragile but that is a balance issue and until Blizzard fixes it it will just be a weakness. Blink Stalker all-ins are potent yes but if you get good damage in with hellions/mines/or cloak banshees it is possible to hold. Especially if you snipe their obs.
I know I won't have PDD all the time but that is mainly what the Ravens are for, and I'm really careful about what battles I pick and where I pick them so my Raven energy doesn't go to waste.
Did you really just say that this build having a fragile opening is a balance issue that Blizzard needs to fix? I'm going to start going 3 nexus before gateway and if I have trouble then I'm just going to wait until Blizzard fixes that balance issue. That's ridiculous. Let's focus on how to make the opener more stable instead of blaming it on balance.
Terran vs Protoss early game is fragile and slightly imbalanced and designed poorly, if you've watched the Pro scene for the past 3 months. Protoss have all-ins that can outright end a game and Terran can't end the game with a 1 base all in period because of nexus cannon (hell even 6/7 of these maps in the pool just scream Blink Stalker all-in there is barely any risk to doing it blindly). I'm not going to respond to anything you say on this topic after this. I'm not going to have my thread derailed.
Your expand build is especially unsafe though, as you have almost literally no units until your banshees come out. This build probably dies to a 4gate if you expand to your natural, it dies to a blink allin off of one or two bases, and it would also die to a 1-2 base immortal allin too. This build being so risky really doesn't have much to do with protoss imba, so I don't see why you don't recommend a safer version, like reaper expo/cc first/1 rax fe into 1-1-1 with tanks and banshee into a third base. But it doesn't make any sense to say that your build that has almost zero ground defense before banshees doesn't need to be changed because protoss imba. That may be true, but that doesn't mean it can't be made safer.
On January 21 2014 00:38 xRiotZx wrote: I'm afraid this is great in concept, using banshees as a sort of hardcounter to stalkers, that are also mobile like mutalisks, and give you great harass potential, but I really don't see how you could survive the early game with this composition. He's going to have way more stalkers than you have banshees, and you're not going to get a good concave in the open field, not to mention if he has blink... You're shit out of luck, and blink all ins are pretty common in PvT.
I usually play mech in TvP (with huge success late game) and even that is incredibly difficult to open with... With the combined mech upgrades, it's probably a lot smarter to just mix air/ground mech, for a good composition.
You detailed the strengths of Phoenixes, though something you're ignoring is that you won't have PDD in every engagement, if you drop a PDD your enemy will likely run away and re-engage when feasible, or attack you somewhere weak, and due to their mobility and cost effectiveness against all Terran air, (except BCs) I see them just shitting all over this.
I'm also Top 8 Diamond if you were wondering.
I agree the early game is kind of fragile but that is a balance issue and until Blizzard fixes it it will just be a weakness. Blink Stalker all-ins are potent yes but if you get good damage in with hellions/mines/or cloak banshees it is possible to hold. Especially if you snipe their obs.
I know I won't have PDD all the time but that is mainly what the Ravens are for, and I'm really careful about what battles I pick and where I pick them so my Raven energy doesn't go to waste.
Did you really just say that this build having a fragile opening is a balance issue that Blizzard needs to fix? I'm going to start going 3 nexus before gateway and if I have trouble then I'm just going to wait until Blizzard fixes that balance issue. That's ridiculous. Let's focus on how to make the opener more stable instead of blaming it on balance.
Terran vs Protoss early game is fragile and slightly imbalanced and designed poorly, if you've watched the Pro scene for the past 3 months. Protoss have all-ins that can outright end a game and Terran can't end the game with a 1 base all in period because of nexus cannon (hell even 6/7 of these maps in the pool just scream Blink Stalker all-in there is barely any risk to doing it blindly). Balance barely affect players below mid-masters any ways so that's not the reason I'm losing. Any ways I'm not going to respond to anything you say on this topic. I'm not going to have my thread derailed.
I am not "derailing" your topic, there was no talk of balance until you brought it up. And the whole point of my post was to point out that we shouldn't be discussing balance here.
Also I am a little confused. In your guide you mention that despite what others think, a 1 rax expand is viable, but now you're saying that protoss all-ins are too powerful. If that's the case then why do you promote 1 rax expanding?
On January 21 2014 00:38 xRiotZx wrote: I'm afraid this is great in concept, using banshees as a sort of hardcounter to stalkers, that are also mobile like mutalisks, and give you great harass potential, but I really don't see how you could survive the early game with this composition. He's going to have way more stalkers than you have banshees, and you're not going to get a good concave in the open field, not to mention if he has blink... You're shit out of luck, and blink all ins are pretty common in PvT.
I usually play mech in TvP (with huge success late game) and even that is incredibly difficult to open with... With the combined mech upgrades, it's probably a lot smarter to just mix air/ground mech, for a good composition.
You detailed the strengths of Phoenixes, though something you're ignoring is that you won't have PDD in every engagement, if you drop a PDD your enemy will likely run away and re-engage when feasible, or attack you somewhere weak, and due to their mobility and cost effectiveness against all Terran air, (except BCs) I see them just shitting all over this.
I'm also Top 8 Diamond if you were wondering.
I agree the early game is kind of fragile but that is a balance issue and until Blizzard fixes it it will just be a weakness. Blink Stalker all-ins are potent yes but if you get good damage in with hellions/mines/or cloak banshees it is possible to hold. Especially if you snipe their obs.
I know I won't have PDD all the time but that is mainly what the Ravens are for, and I'm really careful about what battles I pick and where I pick them so my Raven energy doesn't go to waste.
Did you really just say that this build having a fragile opening is a balance issue that Blizzard needs to fix? I'm going to start going 3 nexus before gateway and if I have trouble then I'm just going to wait until Blizzard fixes that balance issue. That's ridiculous. Let's focus on how to make the opener more stable instead of blaming it on balance.
Terran vs Protoss early game is fragile and slightly imbalanced and designed poorly, if you've watched the Pro scene for the past 3 months. Protoss have all-ins that can outright end a game and Terran can't end the game with a 1 base all in period because of nexus cannon (hell even 6/7 of these maps in the pool just scream Blink Stalker all-in there is barely any risk to doing it blindly). Balance barely affect players below mid-masters any ways so that's not the reason I'm losing. Any ways I'm not going to respond to anything you say on this topic. I'm not going to have my thread derailed.
I am not "derailing" your topic, there was no talk of balance until you brought it up. And the whole point of my post was to point out that we shouldn't be discussing balance here.
Also I am a little confused. In your guide you mention that despite what others think, a 1 rax expand is viable, but now you're saying that protoss all-ins are too powerful. If that's the case then why do you promote 1 rax expanding?
You don't auto-lose if you don't go Reaper expand. You can scout viably with an SCV.
Nice build. Very cool! Never thought to HSM high temps. Can't split those fools. As you mentioned, phoenixes wreck your composition, but are only good on the defense. On offense, turrets wreck them.
To play against your style, your opponents needed to have better map presence. A lot of them allowed you to take additional bases uncontested.
But the fact that Skyterran even remotely makes sense against a race that has a very cheap antiair unit that does extra damage vs armored makes it kinda weird.
On January 22 2014 06:38 MrBarryObama wrote: Nice build. Very cool! Never thought to HSM high temps. Can't split those fools. As you mentioned, phoenixes wreck your composition, but are only good on the defense. On offense, turrets wreck them.
To play against your style, your opponents needed to have better map presence. A lot of them allowed you to take additional bases uncontested.
On January 22 2014 11:05 Doodsmack wrote: Seems like the style is inherently difficult to execute which makes me wonder if it's really suitable for anyone below high diamond.
I did it all the way up to high diamond, don't see why anyone else can't.
On January 21 2014 10:19 IncubusSC wrote: Balance barely affect players below mid-masters any ways so that's not the reason I'm losing.
Uhhhh... What? Balance affects EVERYONE because EVERYONE plays the same game. Yes, it affects the various skills levels to different degrees, but it still affects everyone.
Given 2 players of equal skill, if one is completely destroying the other, there is something completely wrong with the game. But what do we consider two players of equal skill? Well, say we had 2 players who, given a random patch, play evenly with each other. They share a 50% winrate against each other when using various strategies.
Then, Blizzard buffs one of their races. Then the balance shifts away from one player. They buff the race again. Then the other player struggles to keep up. They buff the race yet again, and the other player isn't even a challenge to play against. To say that balance only affects people above mid-masters is like saying nutritional balance only affects the rich. Doesn't matter what we feed the poor people, they're gonna have health problems anyway right, so why bother giving them anything healthy? I don't see any stats or abilities on any of the units say (+5 damage when your opponent is in Masters, and +10 damage when they are in GM).
On January 21 2014 10:19 IncubusSC wrote: Balance barely affect players below mid-masters any ways so that's not the reason I'm losing.
Uhhhh... What? Balance affects EVERYONE because EVERYONE plays the same game. Yes, it affects the various skills levels to different degrees, but it still affects everyone.
Given 2 players of equal skill, if one is completely destroying the other, there is something completely wrong with the game. But what do we consider two players of equal skill? Well, say we had 2 players who, given a random patch, play evenly with each other. They share a 50% winrate against each other when using various strategies.
Then, Blizzard buffs one of their races. Then the balance shifts away from one player. They buff the race again. Then the other player struggles to keep up. They buff the race yet again, and the other player isn't even a challenge to play against. To say that balance only affects people above mid-masters is like saying nutritional balance only affects the rich. Doesn't matter what we feed the poor people, they're gonna have health problems anyway right, so why bother giving them anything healthy? I don't see any stats or abilities on any of the units say (+5 damage when your opponent is in Masters, and +10 damage when they are in GM).
IMO when skill-level is below mid master, the mistakes made are so significant that they far outweigh game balance in influencing the outcome of the game.
On January 21 2014 10:19 IncubusSC wrote: Balance barely affect players below mid-masters any ways so that's not the reason I'm losing.
Uhhhh... What? Balance affects EVERYONE because EVERYONE plays the same game. Yes, it affects the various skills levels to different degrees, but it still affects everyone.
Given 2 players of equal skill, if one is completely destroying the other, there is something completely wrong with the game. But what do we consider two players of equal skill? Well, say we had 2 players who, given a random patch, play evenly with each other. They share a 50% winrate against each other when using various strategies.
Then, Blizzard buffs one of their races. Then the balance shifts away from one player. They buff the race again. Then the other player struggles to keep up. They buff the race yet again, and the other player isn't even a challenge to play against. To say that balance only affects people above mid-masters is like saying nutritional balance only affects the rich. Doesn't matter what we feed the poor people, they're gonna have health problems anyway right, so why bother giving them anything healthy? I don't see any stats or abilities on any of the units say (+5 damage when your opponent is in Masters, and +10 damage when they are in GM).
Did you even read exactly what I said? I said balance BARELY affects anyone below mid-masters. Everybody below mid-masters has such bad macro and has so much room to improve that the current level of balances and any potential changes that are made are irrelevant.
On January 23 2014 04:39 hellokitty[hk] wrote: What do you do if they open blink?
Are you the hellokitty like the pro? If so, hey ! Well I haven't really experienced Blink with the 1 rax FE so I can't say anything there. I usually open 1-1-1 pressure now with widow mines or hellions or banshees. So I get damage done and force them to get detection so their Blink attack is weakened or delayed too long.
Like the question with blink, I'm very curious with replays in the echelons above yours. If it can survive a diverse array of allins or heavy pressure present in some protoss midgame strategies, that should carry on through to the higher leagues.
We just saw Blink utilized to destroy Innovation twice in TvP and knock him out of Code A. 1-1-1 is infamously weak against that kind of play (no marauders, can blink-cancel widow mines, lack of bio early in general), so replays would be appreciated. It's really even hard to support the argument that pressure weakens the attack, since no detection and only careful defensive play is necessary to stop your early damage.
Granted, if they ignore you and take a fast third for the first 20 minutes, I'm sure you can have enough in the air to comfortably fight from that moment on. Compare this to the Mech(+sky) vs Protoss thread. The WoL version thoroughly goes over surviving the midgame to reach hardy endgame, something lacking here.
On February 07 2014 01:07 Lazuras wrote: im very facinated by this build, it works fine, except against blink all in.. can anybody shed some light on how to defend that?
I've faced it quite a few times and it is pretty hard to survive yes. I've been able to hold it off and delay it though by Cloak Banshee aggression and early pressure.
I typically open Marine/Mine/Medivac so against 1 Base I delay the build because I'm forcing them to invest into detection and keep some Stalkers/Mothership Core on defense. This allows me to get enough Cloak Banshees/a few turrets up at home to make their attack either weak or undoable. They need to have an observer with their attack, so that's 200/100 + 75 either before or after their Blink investment and also less Stalkers.
Against 2 Base MMM pressure does alright but the defensive investment is a little easier for them, it also helps out to deal with the Cloak Banshee follow up but they'll need to leave either an observer in each mineral line and a stalker (a chunk of gas) or get a forge/cannon. Which can be alright depending on the map but I'm pretty good at finding weak points to get probe kills in.
I do have trouble against Protoss that are naturally ultra-defensive and blindly open 1 Gate FE into Robo > then Blink Stalker 2 base all-in.
On January 21 2014 00:38 xRiotZx wrote: I'm afraid this is great in concept, using banshees as a sort of hardcounter to stalkers, that are also mobile like mutalisks, and give you great harass potential, but I really don't see how you could survive the early game with this composition. He's going to have way more stalkers than you have banshees, and you're not going to get a good concave in the open field, not to mention if he has blink... You're shit out of luck, and blink all ins are pretty common in PvT.
I usually play mech in TvP (with huge success late game) and even that is incredibly difficult to open with... With the combined mech upgrades, it's probably a lot smarter to just mix air/ground mech, for a good composition.
You detailed the strengths of Phoenixes, though something you're ignoring is that you won't have PDD in every engagement, if you drop a PDD your enemy will likely run away and re-engage when feasible, or attack you somewhere weak, and due to their mobility and cost effectiveness against all Terran air, (except BCs) I see them just shitting all over this.
I'm also Top 8 Diamond if you were wondering.
I agree the early game is kind of fragile but that is a balance issue and until Blizzard fixes it it will just be a weakness. Blink Stalker all-ins are potent yes but if you get good damage in with hellions/mines/or cloak banshees it is possible to hold. Especially if you snipe their obs.
I know I won't have PDD all the time but that is mainly what the Ravens are for, and I'm really careful about what battles I pick and where I pick them so my Raven energy doesn't go to waste.
Did you really just say that this build having a fragile opening is a balance issue that Blizzard needs to fix? I'm going to start going 3 nexus before gateway and if I have trouble then I'm just going to wait until Blizzard fixes that balance issue. That's ridiculous. Let's focus on how to make the opener more stable instead of blaming it on balance.
Terran vs Protoss early game is fragile and slightly imbalanced and designed poorly, if you've watched the Pro scene for the past 3 months. Protoss have all-ins that can outright end a game and Terran can't end the game with a 1 base all in period because of nexus cannon (hell even 6/7 of these maps in the pool just scream Blink Stalker all-in there is barely any risk to doing it blindly). Balance barely affect players below mid-masters any ways so that's not the reason I'm losing. Any ways I'm not going to respond to anything you say on this topic. I'm not going to have my thread derailed.
I am not "derailing" your topic, there was no talk of balance until you brought it up. And the whole point of my post was to point out that we shouldn't be discussing balance here.
Also I am a little confused. In your guide you mention that despite what others think, a 1 rax expand is viable, but now you're saying that protoss all-ins are too powerful. If that's the case then why do you promote 1 rax expanding?
You don't auto-lose if you don't go Reaper expand. You can scout viably with an SCV.
thats true for you. but in high level tvp, scv scout+reaper scout are essential to identify the build of the protoss and scout around for proxy robo or stargate.
With the new meta of TvP nowadays being WM centric in the early game and Protoss being more passive, what are your thoughts on bringing out this style now that stuff like Blink All In's and Immortal Busts have died down.
Have you thought about implementing more WM now that they do additional damage to shields?
On March 17 2015 08:30 Jakamakala wrote: With the new meta of TvP nowadays being WM centric in the early game and Protoss being more passive, what are your thoughts on bringing out this style now that stuff like Blink All In's and Immortal Busts have died down.
Have you thought about implementing more WM now that they do additional damage to shields?
Are you seriously bringing this up when trap can bust out 16 kill oracles? Banshee will be completely scouted and what how do you defend the counter push? Or against the likes of Jim with phoenix collosi thanks to the current drop favoring map pool?
EPT
. Keep in mind that as you practice this style you're going to start out with some losses getting used to it. It is doable however so don't abandon it after a few games. Please don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions and +1/sticky this guide. I'll update/clean up the thread continuously as I develop the style.
