EPTWill watch the replays later. Thanks for the guide!
A guide to ZvP by LYGF Lucoda. - Page 2
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
Will watch the replays later. Thanks for the guide! | ||
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DjayEl
France252 Posts
3) This is a very uncommon style. I've never played vs it. I'd be happy to analyse a replay though if you have one! Here it is. Sorry for the rage at the end, dont pay attention please, but I was very upset ...  https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/45931329/ZvP Zealot Archon Immo all in.SC2Replay I had no upgrades, but as I said before I don't know when do I start them when I see no 3rd. I really did not expected him to attack this late, and everytime I said to myself 'ok hes not attacking yet, lets do something' I didnt get the ups cause they make forever to complete and I was certain he was going to move out any second. | ||
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Lucoda
Ireland183 Posts
On March 01 2014 09:27 Lobotomist wrote: Are there any situations where you'd take infestors over vipers? Also, does it favor you to trade aggressively (trying to deny 5th) or defensively? Usually roach/hydra/viper comps are done as an aggressive timing, bit you mentioned playing defensively. Also, have you considered single evo vs double evo? If you're dumping 300+ gas into the second evo, it's definitely slowing your switch down. Will watch the replays later. Thanks for the guide! Yes, there are. For example, if they go for a more voidray based army I would rather 4-8 Infestors with my army before adding vipers (if even adding vipers) . Fungal really does well vs Voids! I think it's very situational. If you're about to hit an upgrade timing, just go and attack and see if you can find a good engagement. Don't force engagements. Only engage if you feel you can trade well. You want to be playing defensive of sorts, like you don't want to keep trading armies over and over. The aim is to have a solid army with vipers and to pull costly units into your ball without losing too much. Like I said, if you feel you can engage and win on just Roach Hydra, just go for it. The main aim is for muta switch off the superior econ! Having a second evo chamber doesn't effect the muta switch at all really. You're not going muta off 1k gas, you're going muta off 4k/5k gas. Having a second evo going won't effect the switch AND will make you roach viper army more efficient to make the muta switch more effective! | ||
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Lucoda
Ireland183 Posts
On March 01 2014 10:00 DjayEl wrote: Here it is. Sorry for the rage at the end, dont pay attention please, but I was very upset ... https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/45931329/ZvP Zealot Archon Immo all in.SC2Replay I had no upgrades, but as I said before I don't know when do I start them when I see no 3rd. I really did not expected him to attack this late, and everytime I said to myself 'ok hes not attacking yet, lets do something' I didnt get the ups cause they make forever to complete and I was certain he was going to move out any second. Your third base was incredibly late. Should be started at 4:00 vs FFE! You took 4 gases at 7:00 instead of 2 at 6:00. Follow the build order. It is not very efficient to do 4 at 7:00 for this style! Okay so at 12:00 you have double the supply of the opponent. In this situation where it's kinda late and he's not taking a third base, just go and get aggressive. Don't let him get what he wants to get. Put the pressure on! You would have won at 12:00 if you attacked. Poor engagement at your third. You went on top of his army before attacking which meant he got sooo many hits off before you started engaging. You were also quite clumped which meant the archons did a ton of work. What you should have done is send about a quarter of your army towards the destructable rocks to the south of the ramp he came up. Then engage from different places. This would reduce the surface area the zealots got on you as well as making the archon splash do worse. The army from the south could also pick off archons by force firing them. Again, in the second engagement you go right ontop of the army before engaging. This is doing nothing but bad for you. Engage at the max range your army fires. You are losing so much to just going point blank range. Something I've started doing is getting one evo chamber at 7:00 so I can get +1 and +2 missiles. It helps vs 2 base allins more than I thought and you can hit better timings in the macro game. Maybe try that? TL;DR: React to what you've scouted by being aggressive and starting upgrades. Seeing so much tech means it's gonna be a very delayed push. Engage better. Flank the army, split the army, all that good stuff! | ||
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DjayEl
France252 Posts
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Lucoda
Ireland183 Posts
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wishr
Russian Federation262 Posts
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DjayEl
France252 Posts
On March 02 2014 01:45 LucoxP wrote: Not a problem man. Feel free to post your replays in here if you're not sure why you lost! If your interested in free coaching, I do twitter competitions every so often so follow me @LYGFLucoda for more info! I will follow you. Thank you! | ||
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Meepman
Canada610 Posts
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Lucoda
Ireland183 Posts
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vult
United States9400 Posts
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Lucoda
Ireland183 Posts
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DjayEl
France252 Posts
I have a couple of questions for you please! 1) I have some trouble vs Protoss who go for a Colossus-based strategy and tech directly into HT's (they make fewer Stalkers I noticed, probably to save up the gas). When I poke at their base with my Roach Hydra Viper maxed army (I hit them at their front at app. 15:00), they feedback my Vipers and I end up losing a lot for nothing, and it is very often game ending. What they are doing, I can't always scout exactly, sometimes I just don't see the Templars. What shoud I do? Retreat with my Roach Hydra and tech into something else? I'm talking about the first engagement here, where I don't have enough gas to get a sizable muta count. I was thinking about upgrading my spire and get Broodlords ASAP to make use of my army and try to do damage before switching to something else, but I am not sure how good it is. 2) What do you do with your overlords for map control and how do you react to Phoenix? It is useful to send them everywhere as it get you invaluable scouting (notably for proxy pylon locations), but when if P gets Phoenixes he just destroys them all. Do you just send 3 or 4 or them, research speed at some point? Or you just don't care losing them? Thank you  | ||
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
On March 12 2014 12:58 DjayEl wrote: 2) What do you do with your overlords for map control and how do you react to Phoenix? It is useful to send them everywhere as it get you invaluable scouting (notably for proxy pylon locations), but when if P gets Phoenixes he just destroys them all. Do you just send 3 or 4 or them, research speed at some point? Or you just don't care losing them? Thank you In ZvP, with the prevalence of stargate openers, you should only be sending approximately 3 overlords out to the enemy side of the map, with a general idea of where they're going to go before the game begins. Something like this: 1. Starting overlord - goes to enemy main to spot opener, gas, pylon placement. Moves to enemy nat to spot wall/gas/nexus timing 2. 9 overlord - goes to your nat to spot pylon block/cannon rush. Then goes to your 3rd to spot pylon block/cannon rush 3. 15-18 overlord - goes to enemy main airspace to spot tech/gateway count/etc 4. 4th overlord goes to enemy 3rd to spot timing. This is a rough outline (varies by map/build/etc) but any more and you become too vulnerable to air. I don't think you can rely on overlords to spot proxy pylons without exposing yourself to bad supply blocks, need to use lings instead. | ||
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Lucoda
Ireland183 Posts
On March 12 2014 12:58 DjayEl wrote: Hi Lucoda, I have a couple of questions for you please! 1) I have some trouble vs Protoss who go for a Colossus-based strategy and tech directly into HT's (they make fewer Stalkers I noticed, probably to save up the gas). When I poke at their base with my Roach Hydra Viper maxed army (I hit them at their front at app. 15:00), they feedback my Vipers and I end up losing a lot for nothing, and it is very often game ending. What they are doing, I can't always scout exactly, sometimes I just don't see the Templars. What shoud I do? Retreat with my Roach Hydra and tech into something else? I'm talking about the first engagement here, where I don't have enough gas to get a sizable muta count. I was thinking about upgrading my spire and get Broodlords ASAP to make use of my army and try to do damage before switching to something else, but I am not sure how good it is. Thank you 15:00 is a solid time to be hitting. You get a knack after a while to be able to micro against low counts of HT. Splitting off 4-5 roaches to focus down ones out of position can be game winning. You gotta remember as well that you don't always want to try and win off the roach hydra viper push. You just want to be applying light pressure to get map dominance so you can start taking bases and making a big bank. Maybe try getting a hit squad of like 10 roaches to attack his nat wall while you push in to his third when they are out of position. Broodlords aren't necesary, especially if you decide to skip SHs. And if the toss skipped a SG, it's alright to go straight into muta. There's a replay of me doing that vs a robo opening. On March 12 2014 12:58 DjayEl wrote: 2) What do you do with your overlords for map control and how do you react to Phoenix? It is useful to send them everywhere as it get you invaluable scouting (notably for proxy pylon locations), but when if P gets Phoenixes he just destroys them all. Do you just send 3 or 4 or them, research speed at some point? Or you just don't care losing them? I send one to the opponents natural air space (normally my first overlord) second goes to my natural and then to the air space outside his main base. Then I send the rest to common proxy pylon locations as well as attack paths. If I see pheonix opener I'll probably lose at least 2 overlords because of the two at his base. This isn't a big deal because you can just send them in and get a scout off. However you will want to send all the overlords on the map at proxy locations back to your base if you see pheonixes. Reacting to pheonixes: I get 1-2 spores per mineral line and maybe one between my natural and third. | ||
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DjayEl
France252 Posts
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Lucoda
Ireland183 Posts
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Lucoda
Ireland183 Posts
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DjayEl
France252 Posts
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DjayEl
France252 Posts
I've great success with your style of play when it comes to standard late game situations, but I must confess I still get some troubles defending most basic 2-base all-ins. - vs Immortal Sentry : in your video you showcase a game on Yeonsu (same as one of your replays) where you defend this using Roach and Hydra. I see you stick on 5 gases for a moment. I lose a lot to this all-in (regardless of the map), but I go 4 gases roach/ling as I thought it was the "standard" way to defend this and never could get my hydras on time anyway or in ridiculously low numbers. I noticed to save your minerals by not making any zergling and using them on hydras instead, while still getting some roaches, and only add a few lings later when you start floating minerals. Is it a gambit you make or is it the best way to hold this all-in in your experience? Is it map dependant? I can see the benefit of going hydras in the long run though... Often, my P opponent sees all my ling roach and backs off, takes a 3rd and continue to threaten me with his mass units while I'm stuck on roach/ling and I can't punish him directly, whereas I could do a strong roach hydra push before he gets colossi if I went directly for them. I'm just afraid of the first moments of this push that I would not have enough units. More generally, I wonder why this all-in is not considered as strong as it was in WoL and not used too often. In WoL it was considered nearly OP, but nothing has changed in HOTS, it only got worse with the MC. SH can't be out on time and Hydra speed does not really matter, so what changed exactly? - Blink All-in. These, I feel, come in various shapes and forms and at different timings (with DT or not, etc.). I never get enough units against these, at how many drones should I stop to counter the most standard blink timing? Do I have to get hydras ASAP or should I stay on Roach/Ling? Thank you! | ||
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