EDIT: Although this was written quite some time ago, this build is still very viable! Especially with the recent Hydra Buff!
EDIT 2: Interested in watching a video as well? I recently (31/03/14) did a video guide on it. It's about half an hour long. Reading this as well as watching the video will provide more than enough info to start exponentially improving your ZvP! :D
Hey guys, I decided to write this because there have been a lot of questions on ZvP in this sub (/r/allthingszerg) lately. After seeing how successful Juno's ZvT post was, it motivated me to write this.
I will first outline what my plan is. I'll briefly describe my general build ( I don't want to get to into the supply times because vP is very reactionary)
My basic ZvP plan is to get a sizeable roach hydra viper army while getting my ranged upgrades and trading with toss efficiently. As I am doing this, I take up to 5-8 bases at least and saturate the gases. I play as passive as possible while banking a lot of gas and getting mutalisk upgrades. As soon as I have around 5k gas, I trade my army fully as best as I can and remax on 50+ mutas.
The thing about this match up is that the protoss is the race that has to do damage to you asap. If they let Z snowball, it's over. As long as you can contain them on 3-4 bases, they can't do anything. Especially with the muta switch coming. Some things they like to do is warp prism harras or dts. I like getting 2 spores and 3-4 spines per base as my minerals stack. That does enough to defend from those harrases. You're end goal is to switch to mutalisks and to kill the opponent from that. However, sometimes you can win with solid roach hydra engagements, macro and hitting crisp timings.
I like opening 15 pool every game for a few reasons. 15 hatch is almost an auto lose vs gateway proxies. It is also hard to hold off cannon rushes. If you 15 pool, you also don't have to drone scout which I don't do.
You're first overlord should be sent to their natural so you can see if they FFE or Gateway FE. You WILL see intime to put down a gas early enough (around 3:50 latest). On 4 player maps, I play how I play vs FFE.
vs FFE is standard pool-hatch-hatch 3 queen opening. 6:00 double gas, speed-lair. 7:00 Roach Warren etc.
I don't get evo chambers untill the opponent has taken a third base. I find it easier to hold allins with just more units rather than upgrades.
My goal vs 2 base toss is to have 4 gases, possibly a macro hatch (started at 9:00 latest), and minerals fully saturated. At lair I will get a hydra den, burrow and roach speed. Max amount of hydras you want is around 12. Roach ling is important to have. With solid macro doing what is said above along with scouting very well with overseers and overlords (6:45 double overlord poke, after that overseer scout regularly) this should hold any 2 base toss. Obviously respond to their allins with the correct response. I.e if they go mass void 2 base get lots of hydras and maybe more queens.
vs Gateway First I will get a gas when I scout it and pull off after speed is started. At 6:00 I will fill back up my gas and get 1 more as well as a roach warren at 6:30. My third is started at the same time I fill back up gas.
Scouting the front of the wall if protoss goes gateway first is ESSENTIAL. Depending on what buildings you see have different responses. Sometimes toss will put tech in their wall which will tell you if you can drone a lot or not.
If you see 3 extra gateways (4 in total) MAKE LINGS!! You need to scout all around your side of the map to deny the proxy pylon. Denying the proxy pylon is a huge advantage for you.
If you see a forge and a sentry or two, you won't have any early pressure hitting you for a while and means you're free to drone over making zerglings. Lair is gotten at 100 gas, and I get burrow with the next 100. Forgot to mention, for this build AND the FFE build you will get you're extra 2 gases around 7:30-8:30 (any time is fine).
So let's say toss has taken a third without doing any big allin and it's all standard. First thing to do is get double evo chambers, a macro hatch if you don't have it already and a fourth base. When you start your +1/+1 get an infestation pit. Hive asap. Take a fifth if you feel safe and have enough minerals. Get like 5 guys on minerals at the fourth and the gases saturated. Mass up roach hydrra (max 15 hydras) and get 3 vipers only when your hive finishes.
At this point, you just start trading with the toss army without fully engaging. Pulling the odd collosus or immortal while not losing many units. Expanding and getting gases. When you get you're vipers started, get a spire. I like getting two sometimes, but one is still fine. Begin muta upgrades asap (I get all attack ups first) to prepare for the later switch.
Some things you can do are set up roach ling counterattacks for later. Burrow with this is so strong because you can burrow and the toss will think they killed the unit. Later just unburrow and snipe some probes. I know I didn't provide a proper supply build order, but if there is a need for it I can add it in.
I am also willing to show some replays of mine. I am a mid master Zerg on EU server. You can follow me @LYGFLucoda where I will post about my starcraft stuff, playing cups, ladder and what not!
I've also started a bit of coaching as of late. All free of course. I have about five students on skype who send me replays and ask questions. You can tweet me your questions and ask for anything sc2 related and I WILL get back to you asap. I check twitter every day!
If you guys would like, I can do a tutorial for my ZvZ. vZ is also a good MU of mine which I have many builds for!
Thanks for reading guys, point out any mistakes! You don't like something? Tell me! I'd love to hear from you guys!
TL;DR: Trade efficiently with Roach Hydra Viper while getting a monster economy. Don't fully trade armies untill you have 5k/5k around banked, trade fully and muta switch.
BUILD ORDERS: _________________________ VS FFE or Nexus First::
>15 pool >16 hatch >15 O/L >Queen and 4 Lings >3:45-4:00 (when your overlord has scouted FFE) 3rd base >Make queens as they come available to make (Only make 3) You should have one active creep tumour. >6:00 Double gas. >6:30 Roach Warren. >6:45 overlord poke scout with overlord at his natural air space and one at the main air space. >Speed then lair. >8:00 Double gas >9:00 Macro Hatchery _________________________ Vs Gateway Expo::
>15 pool >16 hatch >15 overlord >Queen and 4 lings >3:45-4:00 1 extractor (when your overlord has scouted gateway expo) >Send two lings to watch towers. Send one ling to patrol for proxy pylons. Use the other to scout the front of the wall (VERY VERY IMPORTANT.) >@100 gas get speed for lings and take all three out of gas. >You should go 3 queen as well, but seeing as the hatch will be delayed, you will have about 3-4 active tumours. >6:00 Third base, fill up gas, take one more gas. >If he added 3 more gateways at the front of wall (4 gate) pump at least 6 sets of lings. If anything else make 3 sets of lings. >6:30 Roach Warren >@6:45 Overlord poke scout. >Lair @100 gas >8:00 double gas >9:00 Macro hatch (If you can afford it)
_________________________ THE TRANSITION TO THE MIDGAME::
>At lair finish, get burrow, roach speed and a hydralisk den. >Keep droning untill you have 60 drones (16 mining minerals at each base, 3 guys on 4 different gases.) >Pump roaches and lings at this point to prepare for a 2 base timing. >When hydra den pops get grooved spines and make 10-12 hydras before returning to roach production. >From this point until seeing a third base come down from toss, you are just pumping units and not getting any more upgrades. >When toss takes a third:: >Get two evo chambers ASAP as well as a 4th base and macro hatch if you didnt already have them. >Infestation Pit at before 10:30 if you can. >Drone little to 4th base, as long as the gases are saturated it's cool, make sure you have like 8 on minerals though! >Hive asap and +1/+1 ranged upgrades. >PUMP OVERLORDS, ROACHES AND HYDRALISKS FROM THIS POINT. >@Hive finish make 3 vipers and contaminate off hatcheries. >Get 1 spire (or two if you want, it's personal preference.) >Take bases as soon as you have money for it. You want to be fighting with the roach hydra army while having at least 5-7 bases in the background. >Saturate gases asap and begin muta upgrades asap. >Trade efficiently without trading the whole army. PLAY PASSIVE AND LET MONEY GROW FOR BIG SWITCH. Then you will go and trade armies.
_________________________ Those are the basic buildorders. However, there are situations when you will need a different composition over roach hydra viper. I will explain what to make in different situations.
>>vs Voidray heavy comp: Hydralisk Infestor SwarmHost. Make like 10 SH max, and about 12 infestors max. Rest should be hydra. Also optional to do a 3-4 base 2-2 nydus queen hydra allin.
>>vs Templar/Archon: Roach little hydra SH Viper. About 10 SH do the job. If they dont have collosi then dont have vipers.
Those are essentially the main macro armies toss go for. I can also go through each 2 base all in and describe how to hold them, but honestly each one is exactly the same. Good macro, 4 gases, 3 base saturation, roach hydra ling. If they go blink allin make more hydra than roach. Otherwise get roaches!! Thanks for reading guys!
Peter "Lucoda" Healy. @LYGFLucoda Team Love Your Girlfriend @LYGFsc2.
If there is interest I will do more guides!
REPLAYS: http://drop.sc/368607 - Protoss takes a third and pushes out aggressively. This shows why burrow is great vs Protoss. http://drop.sc/368608 - This is a standard macro game vs Protoss. I think adding some swarm hosts instead of vipers would have done great. http://drop.sc/368629 - Protoss goes for the macro game. Mass voidrays. I use SwarmHost,Hydra,Queen to beat it. This is the style you want to use to defeat mass voids! http://drop.sc/375180- Typical Immortal Sentry all in. Identify what's coming, waste force fields, any units that do get trapped box them and shift attack vulnerable sentries, wait to get a good engage and then BAM win! http://drop.sc/375600- When I play vs a Protoss who plays a macro style without getting a Stargate (i.e robo opening) I like to go straight to mutalisk/zergling and play from there. Here is a typical game where I play muta/ling vs a robo opening! http://drop.sc/375601- Complete "bread and butter" style of this build. I play vs a robo opening but decide to go for the roach hydra viper anyway.
Really nice guide! I tried to use roach/hidra/viper against Toos but when he plays turtle style accumulating colosi and he is on 200/200 I feel my army become weaker each second till late game and I feel vulnerable till my Vipers are out. When do you go Hive?
I guess the worst case scenario for this style would be a protoss making real early HT:s together with a few robo units (together with some left over gateway units, standard sentry count, mb a few cannons), most likely immortals given the heavy gas cost of those early templars. Thats a bit of a greedy way to play for a protoss, but if he sees the early hive comming combined with your mass ranged, he probably should aim to get just that composition very early. You cant use vipers very good vs that early feedback and you cant break his 3 base with mass ling/roach/hydra vs storm + immo/forcefield.
A muta transition at this point might not be so wise imo, since you really wont be able to do a good trade to begin with, which obviously is a main factor in the strength of the muta switch (downsizing the protoss army while clearing up supply for your mutas). So if you open up the way you suggest and face a protoss playing like described above, I suggest trying to get a sick creepspread going (since you will contain him for a while) and then perhaps a transition into swarm hosts and from that point playing it out Firecake/Stephano style (you already have those vipers from the midgame).
In most other scenarios, as in vs non fast templar tech, trading well with roach hydra viper and going for a muta switch I think should work well.
In any case, you have inspired me to use ranged + vipers in the midgame vs protoss now. One just needs to be carefull vs those feedbacks.
On December 20 2013 16:55 Destruktor wrote: Really nice guide! I tried to use roach/hidra/viper against Toos but when he plays turtle style accumulating colosi and he is on 200/200 I feel my army become weaker each second till late game and I feel vulnerable till my Vipers are out. When do you go Hive?
Hey man, thanks for reading! I generally try and get hive started as soon as my Infestation Pit is up. However, as I mentioned, if they are going voidray heavy without collosi, feel free to delay the hive for faster Swarm Hosts. In this case you only need hive for 3-3 really. Infestation Pit should be down by the 10:30 mark latest really, unless they are 2 base allining you and haven't attacked yet ofc.
On December 20 2013 21:03 Babru wrote: Well written guide.
I guess the worst case scenario for this style would be a protoss making real early HT:s together with a few robo units (together with some left over gateway units, standard sentry count, mb a few cannons), most likely immortals given the heavy gas cost of those early templars. Thats a bit of a greedy way to play for a protoss, but if he sees the early hive comming combined with your mass ranged, he probably should aim to get just that composition very early. You cant use vipers very good vs that early feedback and you cant break his 3 base with mass ranged vs storm + immo/forcefield.
Vs this i suggest setting up a contain, trying to get a sick creep spread going seing as he will be contained for a while, and going into swarmhosts. Keep those vipers alive and they will come in very handy for the swarm host transition (a la Stephano/Firecake style). A muta transition at this point might not be so wise imo, since you really wont be able to do a good trade to begin with, which is a main factor in the strength of the muta swtich (downsizing the protoss army while clearing up supply for your mutas). And even if you achieve good trades with your ranged + vipers, he still has storm/archon tech already done which is very good vs mutas. I dont suggest broods at this point either, because the toss will have plenty of opportunity to see it comming and with storm already in his army he just needs to squeeze out a handful of void rays to make your ranged + brood(/corru) composition almost worthless. Since you have already gone for ranged grades, and since he has a few immortals already, ultras probably is not ideal either. So Im thinking swarm host is the way to go in this scenario.
In most other scenarios, as in vs non fast templar tech, trading well with roach hydra viper and going for a muta switch I think should work well.
In any case, you have inspired me to use ranged + vipers in the midgame vs protoss now. Just look out for those feedbacks!
Hey man, you're spot on here. If they are going templar before collosi, I would get around 10 SwarmHosts before getting vipers. Vipers are only really there to deal with Archons, Immortals and Collosi (mainly collosi). The same still stands with getting the monster economy and the eventual muta switch.
The Immortal Templar style is quite a potent one for Protoss and I've been seeing it crop up a lot lately. The thing is though, they HAVE to use storm to deal with the locusts because the other AOE will just die (Archons.) You could actually get up to fifteen swarm hosts vs this as long as the collosi count is dealt with by the vipers!
On December 20 2013 21:04 WGT-Baal wrote: This guide is really nice and well written! Thank you! Can you upload one or 2 replays please?
And you mentionned doing a ZvZ guide, please do!! I totally need one right now!
Thanks a million again!
Hi there! I am actually in the middle of going through replays and will upload them as I find them. I will also upload any relevant ZvP game as I play them over the coming weeks.
As for the ZvZ guide, I was thinking of writing it today! It will be up on TL either tonight or tomorrow. Follow me on Twitter @LYGFLucoda and I'll keep you guys posted
REPLAYS ARE ADDED. Only two right now, but I will add games as I play them. Most games will be ladder against mid-high master players as well as the odd tournament game!
On December 21 2013 23:17 BuiBui wrote: Its a good mid game strategy. Its seems to be a blend of Snute's and Vortex's game plan in zvp.
I would really like to see your ideal overlord timings until the mid game (8-10 min) As well as your macro bench marks
Hey man, yea Vortix's style of low upgrade mass units is the theme of this style untill the midgame. I really like the style and it works great!
So the typical overlord timings would be (9,15(after hatch),24,30,38,44,54,60...) After that you get an overlord or two every time you are 6-10 supply from the maxed supply at that time. When I am waiting to find out exactly what the opponent is doing, I would sometimes make up to 12 overlords at a time before making units. No reason not to, and I don't want to make units I won't necesarily need.
Macro bench marks, it's kind of hard to say seeing as you have two different openers, but I would say you want to have your optimal drone count by the very latest of 8 mins-8:15. You want like 44-50 supply at 6:00. As I said, it's hard to pick macro benchmarks, have a look at the replays and try and make goals of when I have x supply at y mins.
Wonderful guide! Very helpful. I have a question about scouting information and proper reactions, though. You say that if you scout 4 gates after a gateway expand, then you should make lings, and if you scout tech, then make drones. My question is, what do I do if I scout something in between a 4 gate and tech. For example, what should my reaction be if I scout a stargate (or a robo) and 3 total gateways with my overlord sac and ling pokes? Very often I will see a tech structure along with a small number if gateways and think that I am safe to drone, only to lose my 3rd base to zealots (sometimes with +1 attack, even) and a MsC sometime between 7:00 and 9:00 minutes. Other times I will scout the same thing, but play it more safely and make units in preparation, only to find that the pressure never comes, and then my tech and economy are both delayed for nothing.
So yeah... How do I react to a Protoss player who throws down some gates AND tech before 7:00 without being too greedy or overreacting?
On February 23 2014 10:16 Frankie Teardrop wrote: Wonderful guide! Very helpful. I have a question about scouting information and proper reactions, though. You say that if you scout 4 gates after a gateway expand, then you should make lings, and if you scout tech, then make drones. My question is, what do I do if I scout something in between a 4 gate and tech. For example, what should my reaction be if I scout a stargate (or a robo) and 3 total gateways with my overlord sac and ling pokes? Very often I will see a tech structure along with a small number if gateways and think that I am safe to drone, only to lose my 3rd base to zealots (sometimes with +1 attack, even) and a MsC sometime between 7:00 and 9:00 minutes. Other times I will scout the same thing, but play it more safely and make units in preparation, only to find that the pressure never comes, and then my tech and economy are both delayed for nothing.
So yeah... How do I react to a Protoss player who throws down some gates AND tech before 7:00 without being too greedy or overreacting?
Great question! I was mainly refering to around 5:00-6:00 for the ling making or drone making time. Generally if you see 4 gateways in that time with no tech (or any number of gateways without seeing tech such as a robo/stargate/forge) you should make lings. This is because a zealot pressure is gonna hit very soon-generally 6:00 it'll hit. It's important to scout actively with the zerglings you made earlier for a probe that may be hiding on the map.
Now, the pressure that you are talking about is pretty different. You see the tech with the overlord scout, you're free to drone BUT you're not out of the woods yet. Very commonly with a Stargate opener, the protoss will also do a big attack with Zealots at your third base. It's important to be active with your lings on the map to see if he has a pylon up anywhere AFTER scouting a SG. In this case, your gonna want spores in good positions to deal with the pheonixes and a bunch of roaches (10 is a max I would say.) You should always make about 5 roaches regardless. These are what I call the "Oh Shit Roaches" They are there in case you messed up the scout and didn't see everything so they are there for safety.
So in conclusion, to deal with your pressure:
1) Scout the Stargate. 2) Scout around the map for a hidden probe or pylon with lings. Hints could also be if the protoss is trying to send out a probe or MSC. 3)Make 5 roaches just incase, when confirmed make 5 more. 4)Spores in good position.
I hoped this helped! I'm happy to answer any more questions!
Thanks for this guide, I use it a lot and it works very well. I've got some questions though! ('im top dia)
1) What do you do if the opponent opens double stargate heavy void ray into templars. I know you advise hydras, infestors and SH, but in what order exactly? Do you try to do an early attack or do you just mass up units? I feel like its difficult to use SH if I have little creep spread and map control, even more so on a big open map, and at the same time vipers are useless and I'm not sure what my plan should exactly be. Another time a P turtle into mass carriers directly, and I was not able to punish him.
2) What if an opponent stays on 2 bases and mass up a force without taking a 3rd (with colossus). He just waits to have 200 pop and moves out. I am force to make lot of units as if it is an all in, like roach hydra, and dont tech cause he can move out any time. Then I took 2 more bases and get a high econ, but then he just moved out and steamrolled me and I had not the time to remax into anything whereas I got all the tech going. Should I need to tech earlier and get vipers? How do I know he's not moving out and I'm safe to tech up?
3) One time a P stayed on 2 bases forever and just massed up chargelot, immortal and archon. I did go mutas or anything cause I was constantly under the threat of an incoming push. I got maxed on RH and he had like 130 pop of his shit, and still killed everything I got despite me having a good concave. Should have I gone SH with RH as soon as scouted that? I have watched the replay and thought I could get a bane nest and go RH/bane to blow up his massive zealot wall, is it a good response.
Thanks for this guide, I use it a lot and it works very well. I've got some questions though! ('im top dia)
1) What do you do if the opponent opens double stargate heavy void ray into templars. I know you advise hydras, infestors and SH, but in what order exactly? Do you try to do an early attack or do you just mass up units? I feel like its difficult to use SH if I have little creep spread and map control, even more so on a big open map, and at the same time vipers are useless and I'm not sure what my plan should exactly be. Another time a P turtle into mass carriers directly, and I was not able to punish him.
2) What if an opponent stays on 2 bases and mass up a force without taking a 3rd (with colossus). He just waits to have 200 pop and moves out. I am force to make lot of units as if it is an all in, like roach hydra, and dont tech cause he can move out any time. Then I took 2 more bases and get a high econ, but then he just moved out and steamrolled me and I had not the time to remax into anything whereas I got all the tech going. Should I need to tech earlier and get vipers? How do I know he's not moving out and I'm safe to tech up?
3) One time a P stayed on 2 bases forever and just massed up chargelot, immortal and archon. I did go mutas or anything cause I was constantly under the threat of an incoming push. I got maxed on RH and he had like 130 pop of his shit, and still killed everything I got despite me having a good concave. Should have I gone SH with RH as soon as scouted that? I have watched the replay and thought I could get a bane nest and go RH/bane to blow up his massive zealot wall, is it a good response.
Thank you very much!
1)So there are two different situations here. I'll deal with the more macro and standard orientated style of VR/Templar. If they stick to 2 base, I'll get hydra queen army out asap. That will help a ton! If it's three base, get infestors out to help the queen hydra army. Vs this style, you want 10 SH around. That will help clear out the ground army while the fungals and hydra/queen take out voids!
If they go straight to carriers, something that works for me is to get double spire and 6+ bases asap. Just get a huge econ going with a small hydra roach force to kill gateway harras and pylons. They wont be aggressive with this style. Wait till they start to go out with their 200/200 army, sack your small army and baserace with 50+ muta. Essentially you skip the roach hydra stage! Just hold off on the muta for a while because you want him to be maxxed so he cant make phoenixes!
2) This is one thing that will be tough if you decide to play evo chamber less. If you identify a Robo Support Bay then rather than staying on roach hydrea no evos, either get 1 evo for attack range ups or get a spire for corrupters. Hydra Roach is tough vs this! With solid macro you can win though. If you see an early robo bay for collosi AND lack of third at same time he will 2 base timing you most likely.
3) This is a very uncommon style. I've never played vs it. I'd be happy to analyse a replay though if you have one!
Are there any situations where you'd take infestors over vipers? Also, does it favor you to trade aggressively (trying to deny 5th) or defensively? Usually roach/hydra/viper comps are done as an aggressive timing, bit you mentioned playing defensively. Also, have you considered single evo vs double evo? If you're dumping 300+ gas into the second evo, it's definitely slowing your switch down.
Will watch the replays later. Thanks for the guide!
I had no upgrades, but as I said before I don't know when do I start them when I see no 3rd. I really did not expected him to attack this late, and everytime I said to myself 'ok hes not attacking yet, lets do something' I didnt get the ups cause they make forever to complete and I was certain he was going to move out any second.
On March 01 2014 09:27 Lobotomist wrote: Are there any situations where you'd take infestors over vipers? Also, does it favor you to trade aggressively (trying to deny 5th) or defensively? Usually roach/hydra/viper comps are done as an aggressive timing, bit you mentioned playing defensively. Also, have you considered single evo vs double evo? If you're dumping 300+ gas into the second evo, it's definitely slowing your switch down.
Will watch the replays later. Thanks for the guide!
Yes, there are. For example, if they go for a more voidray based army I would rather 4-8 Infestors with my army before adding vipers (if even adding vipers) . Fungal really does well vs Voids!
I think it's very situational. If you're about to hit an upgrade timing, just go and attack and see if you can find a good engagement. Don't force engagements. Only engage if you feel you can trade well. You want to be playing defensive of sorts, like you don't want to keep trading armies over and over. The aim is to have a solid army with vipers and to pull costly units into your ball without losing too much. Like I said, if you feel you can engage and win on just Roach Hydra, just go for it. The main aim is for muta switch off the superior econ!
Having a second evo chamber doesn't effect the muta switch at all really. You're not going muta off 1k gas, you're going muta off 4k/5k gas. Having a second evo going won't effect the switch AND will make you roach viper army more efficient to make the muta switch more effective!
I had no upgrades, but as I said before I don't know when do I start them when I see no 3rd. I really did not expected him to attack this late, and everytime I said to myself 'ok hes not attacking yet, lets do something' I didnt get the ups cause they make forever to complete and I was certain he was going to move out any second.
Your third base was incredibly late. Should be started at 4:00 vs FFE! You took 4 gases at 7:00 instead of 2 at 6:00. Follow the build order. It is not very efficient to do 4 at 7:00 for this style!
Okay so at 12:00 you have double the supply of the opponent. In this situation where it's kinda late and he's not taking a third base, just go and get aggressive. Don't let him get what he wants to get. Put the pressure on! You would have won at 12:00 if you attacked.
Poor engagement at your third. You went on top of his army before attacking which meant he got sooo many hits off before you started engaging. You were also quite clumped which meant the archons did a ton of work. What you should have done is send about a quarter of your army towards the destructable rocks to the south of the ramp he came up. Then engage from different places. This would reduce the surface area the zealots got on you as well as making the archon splash do worse. The army from the south could also pick off archons by force firing them.
Again, in the second engagement you go right ontop of the army before engaging. This is doing nothing but bad for you. Engage at the max range your army fires. You are losing so much to just going point blank range.
Something I've started doing is getting one evo chamber at 7:00 so I can get +1 and +2 missiles. It helps vs 2 base allins more than I thought and you can hit better timings in the macro game. Maybe try that?
TL;DR: React to what you've scouted by being aggressive and starting upgrades. Seeing so much tech means it's gonna be a very delayed push.
Engage better. Flank the army, split the army, all that good stuff!
Not a problem man. Feel free to post your replays in here if you're not sure why you lost! If your interested in free coaching, I do twitter competitions every so often so follow me @LYGFLucoda for more info!
On March 02 2014 01:45 LucoxP wrote: Not a problem man. Feel free to post your replays in here if you're not sure why you lost! If your interested in free coaching, I do twitter competitions every so often so follow me @LYGFLucoda for more info!
You're welcome! Feel free to post a replay of you losing with it if you want some help. Or feel free to post a replay of you #rekting a player to reinforce the guide!
1) I have some trouble vs Protoss who go for a Colossus-based strategy and tech directly into HT's (they make fewer Stalkers I noticed, probably to save up the gas). When I poke at their base with my Roach Hydra Viper maxed army (I hit them at their front at app. 15:00), they feedback my Vipers and I end up losing a lot for nothing, and it is very often game ending.
What they are doing, I can't always scout exactly, sometimes I just don't see the Templars. What shoud I do? Retreat with my Roach Hydra and tech into something else? I'm talking about the first engagement here, where I don't have enough gas to get a sizable muta count. I was thinking about upgrading my spire and get Broodlords ASAP to make use of my army and try to do damage before switching to something else, but I am not sure how good it is.
2) What do you do with your overlords for map control and how do you react to Phoenix? It is useful to send them everywhere as it get you invaluable scouting (notably for proxy pylon locations), but when if P gets Phoenixes he just destroys them all. Do you just send 3 or 4 or them, research speed at some point? Or you just don't care losing them?
On March 12 2014 12:58 DjayEl wrote: 2) What do you do with your overlords for map control and how do you react to Phoenix? It is useful to send them everywhere as it get you invaluable scouting (notably for proxy pylon locations), but when if P gets Phoenixes he just destroys them all. Do you just send 3 or 4 or them, research speed at some point? Or you just don't care losing them?
Thank you
In ZvP, with the prevalence of stargate openers, you should only be sending approximately 3 overlords out to the enemy side of the map, with a general idea of where they're going to go before the game begins. Something like this: 1. Starting overlord - goes to enemy main to spot opener, gas, pylon placement. Moves to enemy nat to spot wall/gas/nexus timing 2. 9 overlord - goes to your nat to spot pylon block/cannon rush. Then goes to your 3rd to spot pylon block/cannon rush 3. 15-18 overlord - goes to enemy main airspace to spot tech/gateway count/etc 4. 4th overlord goes to enemy 3rd to spot timing.
This is a rough outline (varies by map/build/etc) but any more and you become too vulnerable to air. I don't think you can rely on overlords to spot proxy pylons without exposing yourself to bad supply blocks, need to use lings instead.
1) I have some trouble vs Protoss who go for a Colossus-based strategy and tech directly into HT's (they make fewer Stalkers I noticed, probably to save up the gas). When I poke at their base with my Roach Hydra Viper maxed army (I hit them at their front at app. 15:00), they feedback my Vipers and I end up losing a lot for nothing, and it is very often game ending.
What they are doing, I can't always scout exactly, sometimes I just don't see the Templars. What shoud I do? Retreat with my Roach Hydra and tech into something else? I'm talking about the first engagement here, where I don't have enough gas to get a sizable muta count. I was thinking about upgrading my spire and get Broodlords ASAP to make use of my army and try to do damage before switching to something else, but I am not sure how good it is.
Thank you
15:00 is a solid time to be hitting. You get a knack after a while to be able to micro against low counts of HT. Splitting off 4-5 roaches to focus down ones out of position can be game winning.
You gotta remember as well that you don't always want to try and win off the roach hydra viper push. You just want to be applying light pressure to get map dominance so you can start taking bases and making a big bank. Maybe try getting a hit squad of like 10 roaches to attack his nat wall while you push in to his third when they are out of position. Broodlords aren't necesary, especially if you decide to skip SHs. And if the toss skipped a SG, it's alright to go straight into muta. There's a replay of me doing that vs a robo opening.
On March 12 2014 12:58 DjayEl wrote: 2) What do you do with your overlords for map control and how do you react to Phoenix? It is useful to send them everywhere as it get you invaluable scouting (notably for proxy pylon locations), but when if P gets Phoenixes he just destroys them all. Do you just send 3 or 4 or them, research speed at some point? Or you just don't care losing them?
I send one to the opponents natural air space (normally my first overlord) second goes to my natural and then to the air space outside his main base. Then I send the rest to common proxy pylon locations as well as attack paths. If I see pheonix opener I'll probably lose at least 2 overlords because of the two at his base. This isn't a big deal because you can just send them in and get a scout off. However you will want to send all the overlords on the map at proxy locations back to your base if you see pheonixes. Reacting to pheonixes: I get 1-2 spores per mineral line and maybe one between my natural and third.
Hi Lucoda, I've got some questions for you if you don't mind.
I've great success with your style of play when it comes to standard late game situations, but I must confess I still get some troubles defending most basic 2-base all-ins.
- vs Immortal Sentry : in your video you showcase a game on Yeonsu (same as one of your replays) where you defend this using Roach and Hydra. I see you stick on 5 gases for a moment. I lose a lot to this all-in (regardless of the map), but I go 4 gases roach/ling as I thought it was the "standard" way to defend this and never could get my hydras on time anyway or in ridiculously low numbers. I noticed to save your minerals by not making any zergling and using them on hydras instead, while still getting some roaches, and only add a few lings later when you start floating minerals. Is it a gambit you make or is it the best way to hold this all-in in your experience? Is it map dependant? I can see the benefit of going hydras in the long run though... Often, my P opponent sees all my ling roach and backs off, takes a 3rd and continue to threaten me with his mass units while I'm stuck on roach/ling and I can't punish him directly, whereas I could do a strong roach hydra push before he gets colossi if I went directly for them. I'm just afraid of the first moments of this push that I would not have enough units.
More generally, I wonder why this all-in is not considered as strong as it was in WoL and not used too often. In WoL it was considered nearly OP, but nothing has changed in HOTS, it only got worse with the MC. SH can't be out on time and Hydra speed does not really matter, so what changed exactly?
- Blink All-in. These, I feel, come in various shapes and forms and at different timings (with DT or not, etc.). I never get enough units against these, at how many drones should I stop to counter the most standard blink timing? Do I have to get hydras ASAP or should I stay on Roach/Ling?
On April 03 2014 17:39 DjayEl wrote: Hi Lucoda, I've got some questions for you if you don't mind.
I've great success with your style of play when it comes to standard late game situations, but I must confess I still get some troubles defending most basic 2-base all-ins.
- vs Immortal Sentry : in your video you showcase a game on Yeonsu (same as one of your replays) where you defend this using Roach and Hydra. I see you stick on 5 gases for a moment. I lose a lot to this all-in (regardless of the map), but I go 4 gases roach/ling as I thought it was the "standard" way to defend this and never could get my hydras on time anyway or in ridiculously low numbers. I noticed to save your minerals by not making any zergling and using them on hydras instead, while still getting some roaches, and only add a few lings later when you start floating minerals. Is it a gambit you make or is it the best way to hold this all-in in your experience? Is it map dependant? I can see the benefit of going hydras in the long run though... Often, my P opponent sees all my ling roach and backs off, takes a 3rd and continue to threaten me with his mass units while I'm stuck on roach/ling and I can't punish him directly, whereas I could do a strong roach hydra push before he gets colossi if I went directly for them. I'm just afraid of the first moments of this push that I would not have enough units.
More generally, I wonder why this all-in is not considered as strong as it was in WoL and not used too often. In WoL it was considered nearly OP, but nothing has changed in HOTS, it only got worse with the MC. SH can't be out on time and Hydra speed does not really matter, so what changed exactly?
- Blink All-in. These, I feel, come in various shapes and forms and at different timings (with DT or not, etc.). I never get enough units against these, at how many drones should I stop to counter the most standard blink timing? Do I have to get hydras ASAP or should I stay on Roach/Ling?
Thank you!
Great question! I'll deal with the Immortal Sentry all in first because you made a few good points. Roach ling is a really solid way, probably the best way, to deal with the 8:45 Immortal Sentry timing. However, you'll notice that his push was about a minute or so later. This gives him an extra Immortal and more Sentries. The reason I go for Hydras in this situation is because, with the grooved spines upgrade, Hydralisks can shoot over the forcefields and trade very efficiently.
Roach Ling is fantastic on a large map such as Frost/Alterzim/Daedalus because you can get massive flanks off with the speed of the units and because of how many units you have. However on Yeonsu it's hard to get those flanks off so I prefer risking the Hydralisks so I can transition better. If you manage to just get 4-5 out it's so worth it. You could even just make 8ish and then pump out roach lings and try and go for the big flanks. That would probably be the best way to go about it. MAKE SURE YOU HAVE A MACRO HATCH!!!!!! That is so important to have enough units out.
Now, you asked what has changed. Hydralisks are so much more viable these days which really helps out vs Immo Sentry. They can snipe the Warp Prism (which is a massive deal) and can snipe the MSC. The Hydra speed sort of indirectly helps because now Hydras are viable in the mid game (with the speed) so having them in the early game is fine!
Blink all in is probably the easiest 2 base all in to defend once scouted at a good time. There are two responses and both depend on how much time you have. If you scout it in good time, Hydra Ling is the way to go. This DESTROYS the blink composition. Skip roaches completely in this case. The second method is when you scout it too late to get hydras and a fifth gas out in time. Stay 3-4 gas and get burrow+roach/lings. You will be aiming to do with JD did vs Dear at Blizzcon and burrow on top of the tosses stalker ball. Drone count should be at least 55ish drones.
Thank you Lucoda, everything makes much more sense to me now.
I've got another question and I'd love to hear your input on this. It's about SwarmHosts.
I know your goal is to play "SwarmHostless", but you agree yourself you need them into some situation. Like you said, you get about 10 of them in various situation involving air and templars/archons. This is one of the situation that scares me most, since when you go RHV you can grab units and run all over the place while expanding, you don't have to commit to a big attack too soon or at the very least you will deal enough damage to the Protoss to retreat, thus letting you bank enough gas for the big Muta switch.
Whereas vs Void Ray/Chargelot/Templar openings, I feel like I must deal damage with a big hydra ling timing, and sometimes I'll run into Chargelots/Voids that repel my push so easily they just counterattack and I die. I've never been in a situation where 10 SH help me contain them really, and if I've not banked enough gas my last chance is just to do the turtle SH style that so many people hate
What is your opinion aout this: is there some situation where you thing switching to turtling SH is a necessity not to lose? Like, in some games when you can't expand as much as you wish you could or don't have time to bank enough gas, or just fell behind after a bad engagement from which you need to recover from?
I'm not only asking that because I try to avoid the SH playstyle (it is not so boring to me and I like long games), it is just that I feel their immobility is too much abusable on too many maps (open ones like Polar Night or big ones like Frost). That's why I feel that when P opens with mass Voids/Templar I'm automatically at a disadvantage on these maps, cause Viper is useless and I'm forced into making very immobile unit that do shit without securing solid map control first. I wonder if this style has been somewhat figured out (ie Protoss mass air fast templars), for many of korean P pros I see playing tend to build Phoenix/Colossi/ground now much more than they used to.
Actually, if you can provide me with a few more replay of yours playing against this style it would help a lot!
Thank you
EDIT: I'll provide you with a typical replay where I have some trouble vs P opening SG and void ray https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/45931329/Frost LE (130).SC2Replay He goes onto templar and colossus into that, and he is really being super greedy early game. Often I play vs super greedy toss with 3 fast bases and go VR/colo with almost no ground and I don't know how to punish it without SH. I tried them here, but I feel the map just doesnt suit them
EDIT2, 12 hours later: I started to think this out by myself as I got really obsessed with it and I've thought of something, I would like to have your input on this as well:
Let's say I am on a big map (that mitigates the efficiency of SH) and my opponent goes double stargate, I would assume he is going to expand fast. In this situation, a rule of thumb could bo to go queens for air defense, double upgrades for lings into infestors. From there, I can go fast T3 and make ultras if he goes colossus, or BL/Corruptor if he is very archon/templar heavy, then try my best to trade armies and eventually go for the muta switch. Does this sound good to you?
Another possibility can be mutas to stop VR production in favor of Phoenix, then add corruptors and play from there. It always looked like a big gamble to me to go mutas vs air when I see pros do it, do you think it is a legit strategy or more of a risky all-in?
EDIT3, here's a typical game vs templar/archon on an open map (Polar Night) and I found it just impossible to play:
On April 10 2014 16:27 DjayEl wrote: Thank you Lucoda, everything makes much more sense to me now.
I've got another question and I'd love to hear your input on this. It's about SwarmHosts.
I know your goal is to play "SwarmHostless", but you agree yourself you need them into some situation. Like you said, you get about 10 of them in various situation involving air and templars/archons. This is one of the situation that scares me most, since when you go RHV you can grab units and run all over the place while expanding, you don't have to commit to a big attack too soon or at the very least you will deal enough damage to the Protoss to retreat, thus letting you bank enough gas for the big Muta switch.
Whereas vs Void Ray/Chargelot/Templar openings, I feel like I must deal damage with a big hydra ling timing, and sometimes I'll run into Chargelots/Voids that repel my push so easily they just counterattack and I die. I've never been in a situation where 10 SH help me contain them really, and if I've not banked enough gas my last chance is just to do the turtle SH style that so many people hate
What is your opinion aout this: is there some situation where you thing switching to turtling SH is a necessity not to lose? Like, in some games when you can't expand as much as you wish you could or don't have time to bank enough gas, or just fell behind after a bad engagement from which you need to recover from?
I'm not only asking that because I try to avoid the SH playstyle (it is not so boring to me and I like long games), it is just that I feel their immobility is too much abusable on too many maps (open ones like Polar Night or big ones like Frost). That's why I feel that when P opens with mass Voids/Templar I'm automatically at a disadvantage on these maps, cause Viper is useless and I'm forced into making very immobile unit that do shit without securing solid map control first. I wonder if this style has been somewhat figured out (ie Protoss mass air fast templars), for many of korean P pros I see playing tend to build Phoenix/Colossi/ground now much more than they used to.
Actually, if you can provide me with a few more replay of yours playing against this style it would help a lot!
Thank you
EDIT: I'll provide you with a typical replay where I have some trouble vs P opening SG and void ray https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/45931329/Frost LE (130).SC2Replay He goes onto templar and colossus into that, and he is really being super greedy early game. Often I play vs super greedy toss with 3 fast bases and go VR/colo with almost no ground and I don't know how to punish it without SH. I tried them here, but I feel the map just doesnt suit them
EDIT2, 12 hours later: I started to think this out by myself as I got really obsessed with it and I've thought of something, I would like to have your input on this as well:
Let's say I am on a big map (that mitigates the efficiency of SH) and my opponent goes double stargate, I would assume he is going to expand fast. In this situation, a rule of thumb could bo to go queens for air defense, double upgrades for lings into infestors. From there, I can go fast T3 and make ultras if he goes colossus, or BL/Corruptor if he is very archon/templar heavy, then try my best to trade armies and eventually go for the muta switch. Does this sound good to you?
Another possibility can be mutas to stop VR production in favor of Phoenix, then add corruptors and play from there. It always looked like a big gamble to me to go mutas vs air when I see pros do it, do you think it is a legit strategy or more of a risky all-in?
EDIT3, here's a typical game vs templar/archon on an open map (Polar Night) and I found it just impossible to play:
It is definitely not a "necessity" to switch into SH turtle style if you fall behind. It is of course viable to go for it if you feel the need to, but I have never had to go down that road in my games. I can either carry on with the style, or I am so far behind that it's GG anyway.
Regarding your second edit, both are very common ways to play vs protoss and are viable. However, I don't have much experience going down that road with the build. Generally RHV works well enough for me to stay on!
What do you do if the protoss is going heavy voidray/collosi? Do you still go for a roach hydra viper push or do you transition into something else? I feel like the hydras are not enough to take out all the voidrays. You mention that swarm hosts are good against voidray but if they also have 5~ collosi they won't do much.
What do you do if the protoss is going heavy voidray/collosi? Do you still go for a roach hydra viper push or do you transition into something else? I feel like the hydras are not enough to take out all the voidrays. You mention that swarm hosts are good against voidray but if they also have 5~ collosi they won't do much.
Yes, I'd stick with roach hydra viper. I'd also add in a few corrupters or more hydralisks cause the voids would be a problem. Maybe infestors? Solid macro with roach hydra viper infestor should do the job!
EPT
