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On April 30 2013 06:47 Kompicek wrote:
The most improtant thing about this build order is to be safe against early pressure, yet you dont post any replays doing so. This undermines this guide a lot. How does it deal with 8 stalker rush? How does it deal with korean 4gate and 4gate? Sorry but the 5th replay cant be taken seriously, the guy didnt know what he was doing at all. I mean 6:40 attack with 6 stalkers? (he is like platinum?) Normal 3gate pressure does 8 stalkers in 6:15. I am desperately trying to find some safe build without the need of going stargate. I would maybe try this one out if you would post replays of defending against many allins happening on ladder.
I have to agree with him, i tried several time and not working at mid master level at least for me. Lose to severals push.
I am working on it and maybe I will come with some modifications
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Hello. I read this guide and tried it out, and the timings are really smooth. However I was worried about the actual strength of the build when I read that a lot of people criticized it for delaying an expansion too much. I'm only a diamond toss, so while this might work perfectly on my level, it worries me that it wont be as good if I get better.
A few people pointed out that a 2-gate into expand is more beneficial overall, so I tried to alter the build a little bit. I used the opener from the OP up until the MSC at 25 supply, and changed it into this:
25 MSC
@100% MSC -> send a probe to your natural to build a nexus
-> 1 pylon
-> 2x sentries
I found out that if the build is executed perfectly, you can do this while keep making and CBing probes. Also, after the two sentries are made, you will in a short moment have enough money for any tech path.
Since I'm only diamond, I don't know if those sentries are worth it, but to me it seems like a good investment for safety while not delaying the tech for too long and getting the expansion up. 
Opinions on this?
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One thing that I love about this guide: the timings. I opened this thread up and immediately threw these timings into my build order notebook. (PvP is definitely my least researched matchup. So this is great, thanks!)
Also, I'm enjoying the discussion on expo timings. Even if this build turns out to be non-optimal, you've started a much needed conversation by making this thread.
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EDIT: Nevermind. Did a simple search to find my answer (about the 8 stalker rush)
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On May 06 2013 12:19 ma70 wrote:
EDIT: Nevermind. Did a simple search to find my answer (about the 8 stalker rush)
Maybe keep what you wrote before, alternatively tell us what you found?
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Hi guys! Thanks for all your feedback. It seems like a lack of replays is an issue, but frankly despite me laddering a lot in the weeks since the publication of this guide, for the most part I just don't face the strategies you're suggesting on ladder. You're welcome to PM me for some games! In particular, I'll address this post as an example:
On April 30 2013 06:47 Kompicek wrote:
The most improtant thing about this build order is to be safe against early pressure, yet you dont post any replays doing so. This undermines this guide a lot. How does it deal with 8 stalker rush? How does it deal with korean 4gate and 4gate? Sorry but the 5th replay cant be taken seriously, the guy didnt know what he was doing at all. I mean 6:40 attack with 6 stalkers? (he is like platinum?) Normal 3gate pressure does 8 stalkers in 6:15. I am desperately trying to find some safe build without the need of going stargate. I would maybe try this one out if you would post replays of defending against many allins happening on ladder.
So there's a few things going on here. Let's address them sequentially.
"Is he like Platinum?"
Actually, just a note here if anyone was wondering. I finished at 1.5k Masters last season and all replays are matchmade games so that's sort of the level we're operating at.
8 Stalker MSC Rush
I'm very familiar with this build, having used it myself for a long time (see guide). However, despite a couple of dozen PvPs played since the 20th, I haven't had this used against me once. What I can give you is several replays of me easily fending off people who go for 6 Stalker MSC at 6:15 with some form of tech; from there, in the absence of replays all I can say is that dealing with an 8 Stalker MSC rush is "similar". Two extra Stalkers will do very little against an early Photon Overcharge. The game progresses in a similar manner because you can just add Immortals and a Sentry if you want to block the ramp. However, given the confrontational tone of your post I feel that you will not accept this as proof.
Please let me know if you'd like to see the 6 Stalker replays. They're comfortable enough defenses and the games go into macro/midgame situations, but they're not particularly different in nature to the one in the OP apart from them hitting at 6:15 instead of a bit later.
EDIT: Basically the only difference between a 6 Stalker MSC and 8 Stalker MSC is that the latter requires a little better micro and you have to be a little more cautious for a little longer.
"Korean 4-Gate"
I'm not sure if this term has changed meaning, but back when I used to play in 2010-2011 this referred to people who go 10-Gate, mine 50 gas and then spam Pylons in your base. I will assume that's what you're referring to.
I also never see this on ladder any more. I've never even seen this on ladder since I started playing again post-HotS, or for some time pre-HotS. There's a good reason; the same reason people stopped doing it in Wings. You can simply adjust your build to chrono out units instead of Probes or WGR. The same tricks that apply to any other build to beat a Korean 4-Gate also apply here. I haven't seen it used against me or in pro games for a long, long time.
I've even got a replay of me beating an unscouted 10-Gate-Gate proxy with this build (including a spectacular forgetting of my second Gate). Again, however, this is not specifically what you're asking for and therefore I feel this answer will disappoint you.
Of course, you may be referring to something else, in which case please be more specific!
Conventional 4-Gate
You're in luck here! I trawled through all my autosaved replays just for you. In the 27 PvPs I've played since publishing the guide, I've been 4-Gated twice. I lost one of these because I mis-microed my MSC and had to Time Warp to keep it alive, thereby not having energy for Photon Overcharge.
Luckily, here's the other, which I won fairly convincingly. I don't even pick off the Probe during the rush, which is a huge micro mistake. I'll also add it to the OP. I didn't do anything fancy after beating the rush, I pretty much just bombed down the other end of the map and won it.
4-Gate is largely an issue of micro and always has been. If you can keep your MSC alive until you have 100 energy, you can then get out more Gateway units and Immortals and Sentries and all that good stuff.
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EPT
