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On April 12 2013 23:30 Mellon wrote:
U guys saw Creator vs Life? Creator got picked apart using this build. It's just such a huge investment and not any surprise power in this build. once you go 3 stargate you will have a hard time tech swapping. It feels gimmicky, and the mobility is gonna be a huge problem with this build..
I agree that mobility is a problem. and is the reason the big moment of the build is getting a third base. But saying that life picked it apart is more because Life is just better than Creator. No builds are perfect or at least they should not be. Life won because he is a better player I think not because of the build being bad or gimmicky.
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could you post some replays of you doing this? I'm not able to watch the linked games.
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Creator has been doing this build nearly all his PvZ. However, the main weaknesses is still towards mass Hydra. Templar should be the better option after setting up 3 bases as they do not need upgrades compared to Colo.
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Hes been showcasing this build ALOT on his stream and out of all the games I've seen him play, I only say him lose once. His barcode account also shows that his best matchup is indeed pvz with almost 70% winrate. He doesnt do it all of his Pvz but generally he will do it on daybreak and akilon waste most of the time.
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On April 12 2013 23:30 Mellon wrote:
U guys saw Creator vs Life? Creator got picked apart using this build. It's just such a huge investment and not any surprise power in this build. once you go 3 stargate you will have a hard time tech swapping. It feels gimmicky, and the mobility is gonna be a huge problem with this build..
Creator seriously threw that. Fighting with a small number of rays vs hydras in an open area with no land unit or cannon support is pretty dumb, nor did he pull back the weak ones or anything. That was definitely not a good example of how to control vs hydra pushes. Cannons and zealots actually wreck hydras pretty bad unlike roaches, theyr just so delicate.
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On April 12 2013 07:31 rsvp wrote:It might help if you link the game I believe you're talking about - Creator vs Crazy on Daybreak: http://www.twitch.tv/wcs_gsl/b/386405377Mass void ray opening is indeed an extremely strong build. I've been experimenting a lot with it recently with similar success at high levels. Most zergs react to stargate openers with hydra, but you can actually get out enough voids with this style along with sentry/cannon to stop hydra attacks. This is a great build to safely secure an early 3rd. I will say a few things though; - This is a style you should only play against 3 base zerg, 2 base builds like hydra or SH will kill it. - Creator opts for void/sentry combination with few cannons, which is only possible with 3rds that are more easily defendable like Daybreak. On maps where the 3rd is not as easily defendable (like most ladder maps that are not akilon or daybreak), I recommend going mass cannon at both natural and 3rd instead of sentries. - Dangerous reactions from the zerg include hydra into muta (only dangerous if you don't catch the muta switch in time), 3 base hydra/SH, and sometimes hardcore hydra/queen pushes can be difficult to hold. BTW, while it's cool you took the time to note his entire build order, keep in mind that build orders (in terms of supply) after ~40 or so is pretty useless. Instead of memorizing numbers like that, try to figure out his general game plan - for example, standard FFE, sentries off of initial gateway, void rays from stargate and no phoenix, fast 3rd, 2 additional stargates for more void rays, add robo + fleet beacon for tempest + colossi, secure 4th and start pushing and taking the map. Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 07:26 gobbledydook wrote:
I've seen roach hydra corruptor timings crush void ray based armies as the 8-9 corruptors hit when only a few Void Rays are out, and then the Void rays die and the hydra roach kills the gateway army and Protoss loses.
The Void Ray composition takes a long time to build, and it is possible to fungal it or use queens, or otherwise whittle it down and then since Zerg remaxes on tech units faster than Protoss, Z has advantage.
Then of course you could just cheese Protoss out :p No, this build is different. It's essentially a mass void build off of 3 stargates, with very few if none at all gateway units. Voids counter corruptors, roaches are completely useless, hydras are good but due to defensive positions and the sheer number of void rays the mass voids can actually take out mass hydras. Infestors are ok but by the time you can get out decent infestor numbers the protoss will have 3 or even 4 bases and access to other anti-infestor tech. Additionally, MSC recall is an easy lifeline against chain fungals. Queens though, yes I agree those can be dangerous early on.
Voidrays are very strong, but, the specific build creator performed has a lot of holes (in my opinion). I'm just beginning to experiment with this style right now. However, I don't really understand how Creators build allows you to obtain adequate scouting information to make reactions vs muta tech switches or vs roach-hydra all-ins (which are situations you need either an entirely different unit, or a greater number of sentries & cannons then he had in the game vs Crazy). You have such a minimal number of sentries that spending energy on hallucinations might be the death of your 3rd and what little army you have.
Rsvp, when you've been performing this build, are you playing and accomplishing the scouting necessary to make these switches on such a low # of sentries?
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I laughed at how you described EVERYTHING even stuff like 'build a zealot at 147 supply' or whatever. Really, a BO is just something to remember for the first few minutes ingame, maybe up to something like 60 supply. I do think mass void ray will lose to mass hydra though. You def need storm/colossi before the number gets too big.
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As have been said by others, NO, void rays are not too strong.
Most Z's are just outdated with their builds, just that, prolly used to how easy was ZvP in the last year (hard truth).
The "skytoss too stronk" claims are false, coming mostly from those outdated Z's, missing their past WoL dominance.
Here is a video of Minigun using pure skytoss composition, powerless, vs the Catz lategame composition.
http://es.twitch.tv/colminigun/b/389419173
Game starts at 15 min.
Is not the build in the op, but shows that Z can indeed deal with the "perfect" skytoss army.
From the Z pov, I would go for an infestor composition vs mass voids. Or muta cloud, since voids can't stop muta harass due to mobility and late phoenix production is hopeless vs an assembled muta cloud.
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I don't see the advantage of opening voidrays over phoenix. As a zerg I am always more comfortable when i see a voidray coming at me. The only advantage is it keeps you safer vs roach pressure but sacrificing any ability to get out on the map, discourage mutas, kill queens/workers just doesnt seem worth it to me.
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On April 16 2013 02:52 Stealthypoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 07:31 rsvp wrote:It might help if you link the game I believe you're talking about - Creator vs Crazy on Daybreak: http://www.twitch.tv/wcs_gsl/b/386405377Mass void ray opening is indeed an extremely strong build. I've been experimenting a lot with it recently with similar success at high levels. Most zergs react to stargate openers with hydra, but you can actually get out enough voids with this style along with sentry/cannon to stop hydra attacks. This is a great build to safely secure an early 3rd. I will say a few things though; - This is a style you should only play against 3 base zerg, 2 base builds like hydra or SH will kill it. - Creator opts for void/sentry combination with few cannons, which is only possible with 3rds that are more easily defendable like Daybreak. On maps where the 3rd is not as easily defendable (like most ladder maps that are not akilon or daybreak), I recommend going mass cannon at both natural and 3rd instead of sentries. - Dangerous reactions from the zerg include hydra into muta (only dangerous if you don't catch the muta switch in time), 3 base hydra/SH, and sometimes hardcore hydra/queen pushes can be difficult to hold. BTW, while it's cool you took the time to note his entire build order, keep in mind that build orders (in terms of supply) after ~40 or so is pretty useless. Instead of memorizing numbers like that, try to figure out his general game plan - for example, standard FFE, sentries off of initial gateway, void rays from stargate and no phoenix, fast 3rd, 2 additional stargates for more void rays, add robo + fleet beacon for tempest + colossi, secure 4th and start pushing and taking the map. On April 12 2013 07:26 gobbledydook wrote:
I've seen roach hydra corruptor timings crush void ray based armies as the 8-9 corruptors hit when only a few Void Rays are out, and then the Void rays die and the hydra roach kills the gateway army and Protoss loses.
The Void Ray composition takes a long time to build, and it is possible to fungal it or use queens, or otherwise whittle it down and then since Zerg remaxes on tech units faster than Protoss, Z has advantage.
Then of course you could just cheese Protoss out :p No, this build is different. It's essentially a mass void build off of 3 stargates, with very few if none at all gateway units. Voids counter corruptors, roaches are completely useless, hydras are good but due to defensive positions and the sheer number of void rays the mass voids can actually take out mass hydras. Infestors are ok but by the time you can get out decent infestor numbers the protoss will have 3 or even 4 bases and access to other anti-infestor tech. Additionally, MSC recall is an easy lifeline against chain fungals. Queens though, yes I agree those can be dangerous early on. Voidrays are very strong, but, the specific build creator performed has a lot of holes (in my opinion). I'm just beginning to experiment with this style right now. However, I don't really understand how Creators build allows you to obtain adequate scouting information to make reactions vs muta tech switches or vs roach-hydra all-ins (which are situations you need either an entirely different unit, or a greater number of sentries & cannons then he had in the game vs Crazy). You have such a minimal number of sentries that spending energy on hallucinations might be the death of your 3rd and what little army you have. Rsvp, when you've been performing this build, are you playing and accomplishing the scouting necessary to make these switches on such a low # of sentries?
I make 1 phoenix as my first unit out of a stargate, and use that as a permanent scout instead of hallu scouts. You don't have to necessarily find a zerg's hidden spire to scout a muta tech switch - keep an eye on things like his rally point, what units are coming out of eggs, how big his current hydra army is. If his hydra army keeps growing, then keep making voids and cannons. If you see him making drones, then prepare for a tech switch (add some minerals in your cannon lines, make sure you have a fleet beacon if you don't already have one, etc.). Your voids + cannons + stalker warp ins should be able to handle the first wave of mutas, and then you already have 3 stargates and a fleet beacon to easily transition into phoenix.
On April 16 2013 11:41 Insomni7 wrote:
I don't see the advantage of opening voidrays over phoenix. As a zerg I am always more comfortable when i see a voidray coming at me. The only advantage is it keeps you safer vs roach pressure but sacrificing any ability to get out on the map, discourage mutas, kill queens/workers just doesnt seem worth it to me.
There are two main advantages of void rays over phoenix:
- Much earlier 3rd for the protoss. I can safely get a 3rd at 8:00 by opening void instead of phoenix.
- Being able to start building your core deathball earlier on - this lets you finally move out with a threatening army earlier than you normally would.
I'm going to draw a parallel between this this style and the gateway expand vs FFE battle we had back in early WoL days - a protoss going FFE sacrifices the ability to pressure the zerg before 7-8 minutes and allows the zerg 3 free bases, but the toss feels comfortable dealing with 3 base zerg when he's on 2 bases. By going void -> fast 3rd instead of phoenix and slower 3rd, you again sacrifice your ability to pressure the zerg early on and let the zerg get 4-5 bases/the whole map, but the toss feels comfortable taking on anything when he has 3 bases of his own.
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add some minerals in your cannon lines
xD
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Why not queens to fight off voids? Voids have become worse against light in actuality but much better against armored.
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I was been having trouble against a zerg that maxes fast with hydras and some queens, specially on maps without a pocket third where they can position between my bases and avoid half of the cannons. So I started going robo + stargate after my 8min third (instead of 2 stargates).
The first colossus is done just in time for the first hydra poke if I can delay him it a bit with forcefields and good positioning, and than I will have a good number of colossus when he is maxed. It feels much more confortable defending this way and I am preemptively positioned against a 3 base swarm host contain, but the downside is that my upgrades are delayed (I can't really afford twilight council and/or fleet beacon before setting up my fourth) and I am clearly more vulnerable against a muta switch (if I scout it in time I am fine, but if I don't it really hurts not to have a preemptive void ray ball to defend the first mutas).
Is anyone doing something similar? I am afraid I might be giving up too much by going colossus so early, should I just focus on better control/positiong to defend mass hydras+queens? I've been just experimenting at this point.
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On April 16 2013 13:19 bertu wrote:
I was been having trouble against a zerg that maxes fast with hydras and some queens, specially on maps without a pocket third where they can position between my bases and avoid half of the cannons. So I started going robo + stargate after my 8min third (instead of 2 stargates).
The first colossus is done just in time for the first hydra poke if I can delay him it a bit with forcefields and good positioning, and than I will have a good number of colossus when he is maxed. It feels much more confortable defending this way and I am preemptively positioned against a 3 base swarm host contain, but the downside is that my upgrades are delayed (I can't really afford twilight council and/or fleet beacon before setting up my fourth) and I am clearly more vulnerable against a muta switch (if I scout it in time I am fine, but if I don't it really hurts not to have a preemptive void ray ball to defend the first mutas).
Is anyone doing something similar? I am afraid I might be giving up too much by going colossus so early, should I just focus on better control/positiong to defend mass hydras+queens? I've been just experimenting at this point.
While faster colo does work, I think by doing so you're not really doing this build anymore - the essence of this build is use mass voids to counter hydras - which typically are the counter to voids. The other thing is even with colo, I don't see how that helps you defend on maps with hard to defend 3rds (where like you said they can just position their army between your natural and 3rd).
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Those are good points, thanks. I still have a good number of void rays (two stargate production), but it's not mass air anymore since I halt air production at times. I haven't faced a super good zerg that splits well his max hydra/queen army against colossus+VR, the better players I face just back down and start teching to something else when they see colossus.
For anyone interested, here are replays of what I was doing (ignore late game bad play, it's just to show to the initial BO up till 12min):
http://drop.sc/324231
http://drop.sc/324375
http://drop.sc/324374
I will keep experimenting more.
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more and more zergs are figuring out the airstyle now I think. Voids are not good at all against hydra's and this build is not really that strong. The power lies in having a smooth transition to an almost complete air composition which though strong is really not that unbeatable. On a more open map it's much better to just go mildly on stargate units, just 1 stargate worth and not neccesarily all voids and transition into an air heavier composition later if you want.
Still I hope they nerf this style a bit. Even though I think it's perfectly beatable it causes the most dreadful games thinkable. Mass cannon styles should never be viable in top play, action packed play needs to be promoted not some sort of deathball extreme.
My suggestion would be to give the corruptor some sort of AoE ability to replace the most boring ability in the game right now: corrupt. Hopefully that would give zerg a better answer to MASS air like muta's and void/tempest/carrier. Not because I think they absolutely need it for balance but just because it's also good to nerf strategies for boredom reasons.
Afterall it's quite silly to give Z the swarmhost to have an option to push turtling players yet hots actually faces more boring turtling in some cases..
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I have trouqble against zergs that harass witg hydras and attack with a max hydra infestor comp. I think you need storm to beat it but then it goes back to turtle zerg with swarm host static defense which toss can't beat. This build might be good on maps like neoplanet where zerg can't turtle but otherwise skytoss isn't the best
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nvm just noticed someone posted replays
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Is this build still being used currently? How do you deal with hydra swarmhost corruptor ?
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EPT
