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Every PVZ I have been played lately has I have used creator(most likely he did not invent it but i have used his specif order) And I most say I have been dominating. PvZ which was before this buildorder my weakest matchup. I am jubilant when i get PVZ on the ladder. Because i see it as a pretty safe win. Since i have started using the build I have lost 2-3 games with a winrate of about 80%. Every time it has been my fault i have let my macro slip or miss microed. This is the build order Which i wrote down from the GSL replay.
http://www.twitch.tv/wcs_gsl/b/386405377
http://www.gomtv.net/2013wcs1/vod/72024/?set=11
+ Show Spoiler +pylon 9 in base
rally probe 15(supply)
nexsus 16
forge 17
pylon 18 exp
gateway 19
cannon 19
gas 21/21x2
nexus completes
cyber 26
zealot 27
pylon 31
warpgate 33
sentrie 33/34
gas 36x2
stargate 38
pylon 38
sentrie 42
pylon 44/46
pylon 52
voidray 54
cut probes when about 16/18 on each mineral line and full gas
shield upgrade 56
mothership core 56
gate 59
void 63
pylon 63
start probes again
weapon air65
pylon 71
voidray 71
nexsus 71
pylon 71
zealot 73
zealot 77
voidray 79
cannon 83
zealot 85
stargate x2 87
pylon 88
zealot 91
gas 92x2
pylon 96
void ray 98
pylon 100
armor air 101
voidray x2 101/107 constant voidray production
pylon 115
cut probes should be fully saturated 3 bases
115 zealotsx2
gateway 119
pylon 119
voidray 125/129x2
zealot x2 126
pylon 136
nexus 136
robo 148
voidray 148
zealot x2
pylon 148
weapon ground 152
zealot 157
continue voidray production
fleetbecan 164
obsver 165
when fleet is down start tempest production and upgrade weapon 2+
nexus 186
robo 186
ship weapon 3+ when 2+ is done
extended lance when robo is done and start to produce a few coll.
This build reqiures you to use hallusination quite a lot to scout out what your zerg opponent is doing
My question is this not only a strong buildorder but overpowerd I am Diamond(mid-high diamond) So I don't know if Master/GM players feel that Voidray's is not just a bit to powerful but counters pretty much everything. I have tried the build against pretty much every normal meta builds. from 2 base Swarm host to hydra pushes which is the hardest to hold on some maps like Newkirk precinct. But is very easy to hold on most other maps. Or muta builds which I scout early on with hallusination and switch to phoenix and get 2+ range very fast it is pretty much a auto win. I have lost one once after meeting mutas, where he tech switched back to hydras something I should have scouted. So I look at the as my fault not the BO. So like I said is it just me or is Voidrays just to powerful and how should they be changed if you think so.
sorry one of the questions is suppose to be No, we just need to figure out how to counter them
also they counter everything and need to nerfed
sorry I missed those errors and can't correct them.
Poll: Is Voidrays to powerful?No, we just need how to counter them (75) 57% Yes, but they need only to be nerfed slightly. (22) 17% No, they where just under used in WOL (21) 16% Yes, the counter everything and need to be nerfed hard (13) 10% 131 total votes Your vote: Is Voidrays to powerful? (Vote): No, we just need how to counter them
(Vote): No, they where just under used in WOL
(Vote): Yes, but they need only to be nerfed slightly.
(Vote): Yes, the counter everything and need to be nerfed hard
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Cool stuff. Very long list though, will try it it against AI sometime when I have a lot of free time to nail everything. 
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I definately don't think Vr's are too powerful. People thought they were the only choice in pvp, they clearly aren't. I don't think mass VR is that amazing in pvz either and i definately don't think zergs are struggeling with the matchup. People are using way too few infestors vs VR and hydra still own them. I think we'll definately see a diminish in their use, as most master player's know to pull back with the charge activated, and without it they aren't really that impressive. They are strong for sure, but not nearly imbalanced.
Edit: Think you should change the "underused in WOL" option to "they are fine". Since they were not good in wol, they were a gimmick and only useful if you could get charged, which was a terrible mechanic. You had to charge each vr individually in a big fight to even get it to do good damage.
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I've seen roach hydra corruptor timings crush void ray based armies as the 8-9 corruptors hit when only a few Void Rays are out, and then the Void rays die and the hydra roach kills the gateway army and Protoss loses.
The Void Ray composition takes a long time to build, and it is possible to fungal it or use queens, or otherwise whittle it down and then since Zerg remaxes on tech units faster than Protoss, Z has advantage.
Then of course you could just cheese Protoss out :p
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It might help if you link the game I believe you're talking about - Creator vs Crazy on Daybreak: http://www.twitch.tv/wcs_gsl/b/386405377
Mass void ray opening is indeed an extremely strong build. I've been experimenting a lot with it recently with similar success at high levels. Most zergs react to stargate openers with hydra, but you can actually get out enough voids with this style along with sentry/cannon to stop hydra attacks. This is a great build to safely secure an early 3rd. I will say a few things though;
- This is a style you should only play against 3 base zerg, 2 base builds like hydra or SH will kill it.
- Creator opts for void/sentry combination with few cannons, which is only possible with 3rds that are more easily defendable like Daybreak. On maps where the 3rd is not as easily defendable (like most ladder maps that are not akilon or daybreak), I recommend going mass cannon at both natural and 3rd instead of sentries.
- Dangerous reactions from the zerg include hydra into muta (only dangerous if you don't catch the muta switch in time), 3 base hydra/SH, and sometimes hardcore hydra/queen pushes can be difficult to hold.
BTW, while it's cool you took the time to note his entire build order, keep in mind that build orders (in terms of supply) after ~40 or so is pretty useless. Instead of memorizing numbers like that, try to figure out his general game plan - for example, standard FFE, sentries off of initial gateway, void rays from stargate and no phoenix, fast 3rd, 2 additional stargates for more void rays, add robo + fleet beacon for tempest + colossi, secure 4th and start pushing and taking the map.
On April 12 2013 07:26 gobbledydook wrote:
I've seen roach hydra corruptor timings crush void ray based armies as the 8-9 corruptors hit when only a few Void Rays are out, and then the Void rays die and the hydra roach kills the gateway army and Protoss loses.
The Void Ray composition takes a long time to build, and it is possible to fungal it or use queens, or otherwise whittle it down and then since Zerg remaxes on tech units faster than Protoss, Z has advantage.
Then of course you could just cheese Protoss out :p
No, this build is different. It's essentially a mass void build off of 3 stargates, with very few if none at all gateway units. Voids counter corruptors, roaches are completely useless, hydras are good but due to defensive positions and the sheer number of void rays the mass voids can actually take out mass hydras.
Infestors are ok but by the time you can get out decent infestor numbers the protoss will have 3 or even 4 bases and access to other anti-infestor tech. Additionally, MSC recall is an easy lifeline against chain fungals. Queens though, yes I agree those can be dangerous early on.
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On April 12 2013 07:31 rsvp wrote:It might help if you link the game I believe you're talking about - Creator vs Crazy on Daybreak: http://www.twitch.tv/wcs_gsl/b/386405377Mass void ray opening is indeed an extremely strong build. I've been experimenting a lot with it recently with similar success at high levels. Most zergs react to stargate openers with hydra, but you can actually get out enough voids with this style along with sentry/cannon to stop hydra attacks. This is a great build to safely secure an early 3rd. I will say a few things though; - This is a style you should only play against 3 base zerg, 2 base builds like hydra or SH will kill it. - Creator opts for void/sentry combination with few cannons, which is only possible with 3rds that are more easily defendable like Daybreak. On maps where the 3rd is not as easily defendable (like most ladder maps that are not akilon or daybreak), I recommend going mass cannon at both natural and 3rd instead of sentries. - Dangerous reactions from the zerg include hydra into muta (only dangerous if you don't catch the muta switch in time), 3 base hydra/SH, and sometimes hardcore hydra/queen pushes can be difficult to hold.
Ya will Add that to the main post tnx.
I have to disagree with the 2 base Swarmhost will autokill it. I have myself beaten it though again not against a Master/Gm but a diamond that said that he has pretty much walked over every toss so far.
The build is a optimal build. And will change if you get pressured a lot. But if you hold the normal pressures that will come you have great windows to snipe hatches with your voids since they have such a high dps.
also if you don't catch the muta switch in time it is not the build order fault you are not scouting enough this build requires you to use hallusination many times to see what your opponent is doing.
hardcore hydra queen pushes will auto kill this I have no doudt, but it is so rare and if that becomes meta toss has a lot to auto counter that meta change.
On April 12 2013 07:26 gobbledydook wrote:
I've seen roach hydra corruptor timings crush void ray based armies as the 8-9 corruptors hit when only a few Void Rays are out, and then the Void rays die and the hydra roach kills the gateway army and Protoss loses.
The Void Ray composition takes a long time to build, and it is possible to fungal it or use queens, or otherwise whittle it down and then since Zerg remaxes on tech units faster than Protoss, Z has advantage.
Then of course you could just cheese Protoss out :p
The thing with this build you have not that few voidrays out pretty fast. Also every engagement you are doing should be some cannons or Nexus cannon. the zealots that you have warped in tank a lot of damage from the ground units and the corrupters fall pretty fast if you focus fire them with cannons voidrays and nexus while microing. Also that is a hard counter and if you don't scout the 3 stargates you will not do that push. Crazy scouted it and did not do that push. He might not have though about it or though it was to risky I don't know but it is I think it's a sure way to kill the BO
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On April 12 2013 07:39 Noxblood wrote:
I have to disagree with the 2 base Swarmhost will autokill it. I have myself beaten it though again not against a Master/Gm but a diamond that said that he has pretty much walked over every toss so far.
A proper 2 base swarmhost is accompanied with many queens (followed by spores) and hits really early while you're still on 1 stargate. If you get lucky you may be able to snipe a few units here and there with the voids but usually there will just be too many queens for your voids to handle.
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Cool build, although isn't it not all that helpful to list food numbers to such high supply? Surely you can anticipate some form of engagement occurring in the meantime to mess with your food count a little. At a certain point you might want to go by the game time, rather than the food count, although I suppose that might be a little more work to make into a list.
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On April 12 2013 07:44 rsvp wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 07:39 Noxblood wrote:
I have to disagree with the 2 base Swarmhost will autokill it. I have myself beaten it though again not against a Master/Gm but a diamond that said that he has pretty much walked over every toss so far.
A proper 2 base swarmhost is accompanied with many queens (followed by spores) and hits really early while you're still on 1 stargate. If you get lucky you may be able to snipe a few units here and there with the voids but usually there will just be too many queens for your voids to handle.
In my situation it hit when I was on 2 bases. I had just trowned down a 3 nexus and produced probes out out of since i was planing to sack my natural. when i had about 8 voidrays(which did not take long since my the stargates was up not long after the first swarmhost was attacking my buildings. I moved out he had about 4 spores and 4 queens which i killed of quite fast. I think I could have manage more air defence than was present. and moved my oracle which I have started to get vision. though it did not make in time and he got back in to the nydus work. I then I went right at his natural and start sniping buildings. since i had about 10 voidrays then i manage to snipe his spores quite fast also his hydras which he had teched to. Like I said he was not master/GM player but he had some skill. He had also stolen the buildorder from TLO he stated when i said that he must be a fan of TLO since he is the only Pro I have seen do that build regularly.
On April 12 2013 07:52 ChristianS wrote:
Cool build, although isn't it not all that helpful to list food numbers to such high supply? Surely you can anticipate some form of engagement occurring in the meantime to mess with your food count a little. At a certain point you might want to go by the game time, rather than the food count, although I suppose that might be a little more work to make into a list.
I agree after about 70 food the chance to follow the buildorder by number becomes quite low. And timings would be more practical. And if i had a normal replay I would do it but I had only a GSL vod to work with. And used about 2 hours getting all the numbers in. In the future when I have encountered enough Muta play I will try to make a branch build out of it and show what I do when encounter it(though I am only a diamond player and my macro slips sometimes )
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I don't have a GSL subscription, so can't watch the replay, but are you sure that's right? He's only building 3 stargates and 3 gateways before taking a 4th? Surely he must have constructed more gateways somewhere.
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On April 12 2013 09:46 FlyingBeer wrote:
I don't have a GSL subscription, so can't watch the replay, but are you sure that's right? He's only building 3 stargates and 3 gateways before taking a 4th? Surely he must have constructed more gateways somewhere.
You can get a 3 day pass by entering the name of the current GSL tournament on gomtv.net
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On April 12 2013 09:46 FlyingBeer wrote:
I don't have a GSL subscription, so can't watch the replay, but are you sure that's right? He's only building 3 stargates and 3 gateways before taking a 4th? Surely he must have constructed more gateways somewhere.
Nopp. if you constantly build units you macro will be ok. Remember that Voidrays cost 250m 150g so they are expensive. Also you are cronoboosting them out if you have the macro. so 3 stargates with crono is not to little for 3 bases. + upgrades and zealots here and there. But if you think you can't keep your money low build more strutures. that is a pretty good rule none the less. if you are floating alot of money build more strutures. But it should be enough until your 4 base is complete.
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Wouldn't this straight up die to a roach rush or ling all in?
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On April 12 2013 10:47 Larkin wrote:
Wouldn't this straight up die to a roach rush or ling all in?
Roaches die REALLY fast to void rays, FFE into Void Rays is the safest Protoss expansion that exists. The addition in HotS of the mothercore allows good early game scouting and the nexus canon means an early third should be holdable vs anything that isn't fairly easy to scout.
An eco bane-bust can do some serious damage, but it's very risky and map/walloff-dependent.
It's strong. It can certainly be beaten in the late game (ultra-hydra-infestor or swarm host-hydra-spore), but there's no really refined (yet) way to beat this (that I'm aware of).
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There was a post about this build on reddit, with a much shorter and cleaner looking build order: http://www.reddit.com/r/allthingsprotoss/comments/1bww98/wrote_down_creators_skytoss_build_figured_id/
I took my own notes watching over the game and made some changes to the reddit post. I also wrote some additional notes even if they were obvious, because I don't like to leave out much when going over new complex builds. I then tried the BO against the computer and changed some timings. I'm still testing things out and I also like to play greedily, so take it with a grain of salt, as I'm in the process of personalizing it for my own playstyle. Warning: its kind of sloppy because of random notes and I stopped keeping track of supply after 38.
+ Show Spoiler +
• 9 pylon
• 17 nexus
• 17 forge
• 17 pylon
• 20 gateway
• 20 cannon (covers wall+ramp)
• 21 gas #1
• 21 gas #2
• 26 cybercore
• warpgate when core finishes/OR +1 air(current build is based on warpgate first)
• zealot ---> sentry
• 36 gas #3 & #4 (5:20 - 5:30 min)
• 38 stargate (5:50 min)
• second sentry after stargate
• MSC 6:30 mins~
• +1 shields 6:45 mins ~
• Army @ 7.30= 1 zealot 2 sentry 1 void ray
• +1 air attack 8:00 mins ~, finishes slightly late for 3 voidray poke. chrono consistently and maybe it finishes in time.
• third base 8:00 mins
• 3 more gates to wall off third
• 2 more stargates 9:20 mins
• +1 Shields finishes at 9:40, hydras start at same time, attack with 3 voids now!
• Keep zerg occupied with voidray presence, msc + voids + units at home to defend.
• +1-1 air fast
• Gas 5-6 ASAP
• Creator takes a fourth with 9 zealots.
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Robo and +1 ground attack 12:30 ~, after fourth base is put down.
• Creator gets fleet beacon at 13:00 minutes.
• After fleet beacon go into +2 air attack and tempest (should have 14 ish void rays).
• Creator has 17 voids when he goes into tempest.
• Make observer(s), and warp prism(s) for zealot drops, do multi-pronged attacks with voidrays, bring msc with voids.
• Put down twilight, get templar archives and +2 shields.
colossus tech around same time as twilight (done vs hydra army).
• Charge and +3 shields or +attack.
•
Creator gets 78 probes, maxed with only 3 tempest. 4-5 tempest is better imo.
• Blink, dt shrine, and more gateways.
• Dt's really help with defense.
• Make 1 oracle for revelation.
• Storm drops, especially if zealots/dts harass can't do damage.
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On April 12 2013 07:44 rsvp wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 07:39 Noxblood wrote:
I have to disagree with the 2 base Swarmhost will autokill it. I have myself beaten it though again not against a Master/Gm but a diamond that said that he has pretty much walked over every toss so far.
A proper 2 base swarmhost is accompanied with many queens (followed by spores) and hits really early while you're still on 1 stargate. If you get lucky you may be able to snipe a few units here and there with the voids but usually there will just be too many queens for your voids to handle.
Voids put you in a decent position to basetrade though. If they use the 2 base swarmhost you can for example get a prism or blink to escape the lock along with your voids and start basetrading. You can always use sentries to keep your main safe if needed.
What I like but haven't tested enough against the slow army of queen/SH is to expand somewhere remote on the map. You can sacrifice your nat and just recall your probes over to the new nexus then. With early SH/hydra attacks in the game I think it's always good to keep most of your tech structures in your main now.
Overall I really like this style. It's great because the voids let you take a third quite early, you can take it much faster than creator took (which was an awful game by the way because of crazy's terrible play).
I prefer starting out with 1 oracle though, it's better against hydra's anyway and let's you put on a bit of pressure faster to force those spores. It's also great for defending a third against speedlings at which voids suck a bit. A 1-of oracle in your composition is also really useful for detection/scouting with it's other abilities, I can't think of a reason to go voids before an oracle really.
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On April 12 2013 17:11 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 07:44 rsvp wrote:On April 12 2013 07:39 Noxblood wrote:
I have to disagree with the 2 base Swarmhost will autokill it. I have myself beaten it though again not against a Master/Gm but a diamond that said that he has pretty much walked over every toss so far.
A proper 2 base swarmhost is accompanied with many queens (followed by spores) and hits really early while you're still on 1 stargate. If you get lucky you may be able to snipe a few units here and there with the voids but usually there will just be too many queens for your voids to handle. Voids put you in a decent position to basetrade though. If they use the 2 base swarmhost you can for example get a prism or blink to escape the lock along with your voids and start basetrading. You can always use sentries to keep your main safe if needed. What I like but haven't tested enough against the slow army of queen/SH is to expand somewhere remote on the map. You can sacrifice your nat and just recall your probes over to the new nexus then. With early SH/hydra attacks in the game I think it's always good to keep most of your tech structures in your main now. Overall I really like this style. It's great because the voids let you take a third quite early, you can take it much faster than creator took (which was an awful game by the way because of crazy's terrible play). I prefer starting out with 1 oracle though, it's better against hydra's anyway and let's you put on a bit of pressure faster to force those spores. It's also great for defending a third against speedlings at which voids suck a bit. A 1-of oracle in your composition is also really useful for detection/scouting with it's other abilities, I can't think of a reason to go voids before an oracle really.
I second starting with an Oracle first. Either they aren't prepared for it, and you do a bunch of economic damage, or they are prepared and already used money on spores, slowing them down. And even in this case, you get to scout their whole base, and then go and start your third super early, since an oracle can take out any number of counterattacking lings. And if you see a roach warren, well your main plan was voids anyway, so no problem.
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U guys saw Creator vs Life? Creator got picked apart using this build. It's just such a huge investment and not any surprise power in this build. once you go 3 stargate you will have a hard time tech swapping. It feels gimmicky, and the mobility is gonna be a huge problem with this build..
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On April 12 2013 23:30 Mellon wrote:
U guys saw Creator vs Life? Creator got picked apart using this build. It's just such a huge investment and not any surprise power in this build. once you go 3 stargate you will have a hard time tech swapping. It feels gimmicky, and the mobility is gonna be a huge problem with this build..
I agree that mobility is a problem. and is the reason the big moment of the build is getting a third base. But saying that life picked it apart is more because Life is just better than Creator. No builds are perfect or at least they should not be. Life won because he is a better player I think not because of the build being bad or gimmicky.
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could you post some replays of you doing this? I'm not able to watch the linked games.
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Creator has been doing this build nearly all his PvZ. However, the main weaknesses is still towards mass Hydra. Templar should be the better option after setting up 3 bases as they do not need upgrades compared to Colo.
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Hes been showcasing this build ALOT on his stream and out of all the games I've seen him play, I only say him lose once. His barcode account also shows that his best matchup is indeed pvz with almost 70% winrate. He doesnt do it all of his Pvz but generally he will do it on daybreak and akilon waste most of the time.
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On April 12 2013 23:30 Mellon wrote:
U guys saw Creator vs Life? Creator got picked apart using this build. It's just such a huge investment and not any surprise power in this build. once you go 3 stargate you will have a hard time tech swapping. It feels gimmicky, and the mobility is gonna be a huge problem with this build..
Creator seriously threw that. Fighting with a small number of rays vs hydras in an open area with no land unit or cannon support is pretty dumb, nor did he pull back the weak ones or anything. That was definitely not a good example of how to control vs hydra pushes. Cannons and zealots actually wreck hydras pretty bad unlike roaches, theyr just so delicate.
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On April 12 2013 07:31 rsvp wrote:It might help if you link the game I believe you're talking about - Creator vs Crazy on Daybreak: http://www.twitch.tv/wcs_gsl/b/386405377Mass void ray opening is indeed an extremely strong build. I've been experimenting a lot with it recently with similar success at high levels. Most zergs react to stargate openers with hydra, but you can actually get out enough voids with this style along with sentry/cannon to stop hydra attacks. This is a great build to safely secure an early 3rd. I will say a few things though; - This is a style you should only play against 3 base zerg, 2 base builds like hydra or SH will kill it. - Creator opts for void/sentry combination with few cannons, which is only possible with 3rds that are more easily defendable like Daybreak. On maps where the 3rd is not as easily defendable (like most ladder maps that are not akilon or daybreak), I recommend going mass cannon at both natural and 3rd instead of sentries. - Dangerous reactions from the zerg include hydra into muta (only dangerous if you don't catch the muta switch in time), 3 base hydra/SH, and sometimes hardcore hydra/queen pushes can be difficult to hold. BTW, while it's cool you took the time to note his entire build order, keep in mind that build orders (in terms of supply) after ~40 or so is pretty useless. Instead of memorizing numbers like that, try to figure out his general game plan - for example, standard FFE, sentries off of initial gateway, void rays from stargate and no phoenix, fast 3rd, 2 additional stargates for more void rays, add robo + fleet beacon for tempest + colossi, secure 4th and start pushing and taking the map. Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 07:26 gobbledydook wrote:
I've seen roach hydra corruptor timings crush void ray based armies as the 8-9 corruptors hit when only a few Void Rays are out, and then the Void rays die and the hydra roach kills the gateway army and Protoss loses.
The Void Ray composition takes a long time to build, and it is possible to fungal it or use queens, or otherwise whittle it down and then since Zerg remaxes on tech units faster than Protoss, Z has advantage.
Then of course you could just cheese Protoss out :p No, this build is different. It's essentially a mass void build off of 3 stargates, with very few if none at all gateway units. Voids counter corruptors, roaches are completely useless, hydras are good but due to defensive positions and the sheer number of void rays the mass voids can actually take out mass hydras. Infestors are ok but by the time you can get out decent infestor numbers the protoss will have 3 or even 4 bases and access to other anti-infestor tech. Additionally, MSC recall is an easy lifeline against chain fungals. Queens though, yes I agree those can be dangerous early on.
Voidrays are very strong, but, the specific build creator performed has a lot of holes (in my opinion). I'm just beginning to experiment with this style right now. However, I don't really understand how Creators build allows you to obtain adequate scouting information to make reactions vs muta tech switches or vs roach-hydra all-ins (which are situations you need either an entirely different unit, or a greater number of sentries & cannons then he had in the game vs Crazy). You have such a minimal number of sentries that spending energy on hallucinations might be the death of your 3rd and what little army you have.
Rsvp, when you've been performing this build, are you playing and accomplishing the scouting necessary to make these switches on such a low # of sentries?
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I laughed at how you described EVERYTHING even stuff like 'build a zealot at 147 supply' or whatever. Really, a BO is just something to remember for the first few minutes ingame, maybe up to something like 60 supply. I do think mass void ray will lose to mass hydra though. You def need storm/colossi before the number gets too big.
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As have been said by others, NO, void rays are not too strong.
Most Z's are just outdated with their builds, just that, prolly used to how easy was ZvP in the last year (hard truth).
The "skytoss too stronk" claims are false, coming mostly from those outdated Z's, missing their past WoL dominance.
Here is a video of Minigun using pure skytoss composition, powerless, vs the Catz lategame composition.
http://es.twitch.tv/colminigun/b/389419173
Game starts at 15 min.
Is not the build in the op, but shows that Z can indeed deal with the "perfect" skytoss army.
From the Z pov, I would go for an infestor composition vs mass voids. Or muta cloud, since voids can't stop muta harass due to mobility and late phoenix production is hopeless vs an assembled muta cloud.
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I don't see the advantage of opening voidrays over phoenix. As a zerg I am always more comfortable when i see a voidray coming at me. The only advantage is it keeps you safer vs roach pressure but sacrificing any ability to get out on the map, discourage mutas, kill queens/workers just doesnt seem worth it to me.
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On April 16 2013 02:52 Stealthypoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 07:31 rsvp wrote:It might help if you link the game I believe you're talking about - Creator vs Crazy on Daybreak: http://www.twitch.tv/wcs_gsl/b/386405377Mass void ray opening is indeed an extremely strong build. I've been experimenting a lot with it recently with similar success at high levels. Most zergs react to stargate openers with hydra, but you can actually get out enough voids with this style along with sentry/cannon to stop hydra attacks. This is a great build to safely secure an early 3rd. I will say a few things though; - This is a style you should only play against 3 base zerg, 2 base builds like hydra or SH will kill it. - Creator opts for void/sentry combination with few cannons, which is only possible with 3rds that are more easily defendable like Daybreak. On maps where the 3rd is not as easily defendable (like most ladder maps that are not akilon or daybreak), I recommend going mass cannon at both natural and 3rd instead of sentries. - Dangerous reactions from the zerg include hydra into muta (only dangerous if you don't catch the muta switch in time), 3 base hydra/SH, and sometimes hardcore hydra/queen pushes can be difficult to hold. BTW, while it's cool you took the time to note his entire build order, keep in mind that build orders (in terms of supply) after ~40 or so is pretty useless. Instead of memorizing numbers like that, try to figure out his general game plan - for example, standard FFE, sentries off of initial gateway, void rays from stargate and no phoenix, fast 3rd, 2 additional stargates for more void rays, add robo + fleet beacon for tempest + colossi, secure 4th and start pushing and taking the map. On April 12 2013 07:26 gobbledydook wrote:
I've seen roach hydra corruptor timings crush void ray based armies as the 8-9 corruptors hit when only a few Void Rays are out, and then the Void rays die and the hydra roach kills the gateway army and Protoss loses.
The Void Ray composition takes a long time to build, and it is possible to fungal it or use queens, or otherwise whittle it down and then since Zerg remaxes on tech units faster than Protoss, Z has advantage.
Then of course you could just cheese Protoss out :p No, this build is different. It's essentially a mass void build off of 3 stargates, with very few if none at all gateway units. Voids counter corruptors, roaches are completely useless, hydras are good but due to defensive positions and the sheer number of void rays the mass voids can actually take out mass hydras. Infestors are ok but by the time you can get out decent infestor numbers the protoss will have 3 or even 4 bases and access to other anti-infestor tech. Additionally, MSC recall is an easy lifeline against chain fungals. Queens though, yes I agree those can be dangerous early on. Voidrays are very strong, but, the specific build creator performed has a lot of holes (in my opinion). I'm just beginning to experiment with this style right now. However, I don't really understand how Creators build allows you to obtain adequate scouting information to make reactions vs muta tech switches or vs roach-hydra all-ins (which are situations you need either an entirely different unit, or a greater number of sentries & cannons then he had in the game vs Crazy). You have such a minimal number of sentries that spending energy on hallucinations might be the death of your 3rd and what little army you have. Rsvp, when you've been performing this build, are you playing and accomplishing the scouting necessary to make these switches on such a low # of sentries?
I make 1 phoenix as my first unit out of a stargate, and use that as a permanent scout instead of hallu scouts. You don't have to necessarily find a zerg's hidden spire to scout a muta tech switch - keep an eye on things like his rally point, what units are coming out of eggs, how big his current hydra army is. If his hydra army keeps growing, then keep making voids and cannons. If you see him making drones, then prepare for a tech switch (add some minerals in your cannon lines, make sure you have a fleet beacon if you don't already have one, etc.). Your voids + cannons + stalker warp ins should be able to handle the first wave of mutas, and then you already have 3 stargates and a fleet beacon to easily transition into phoenix.
On April 16 2013 11:41 Insomni7 wrote:
I don't see the advantage of opening voidrays over phoenix. As a zerg I am always more comfortable when i see a voidray coming at me. The only advantage is it keeps you safer vs roach pressure but sacrificing any ability to get out on the map, discourage mutas, kill queens/workers just doesnt seem worth it to me.
There are two main advantages of void rays over phoenix:
- Much earlier 3rd for the protoss. I can safely get a 3rd at 8:00 by opening void instead of phoenix.
- Being able to start building your core deathball earlier on - this lets you finally move out with a threatening army earlier than you normally would.
I'm going to draw a parallel between this this style and the gateway expand vs FFE battle we had back in early WoL days - a protoss going FFE sacrifices the ability to pressure the zerg before 7-8 minutes and allows the zerg 3 free bases, but the toss feels comfortable dealing with 3 base zerg when he's on 2 bases. By going void -> fast 3rd instead of phoenix and slower 3rd, you again sacrifice your ability to pressure the zerg early on and let the zerg get 4-5 bases/the whole map, but the toss feels comfortable taking on anything when he has 3 bases of his own.
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add some minerals in your cannon lines
xD
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Why not queens to fight off voids? Voids have become worse against light in actuality but much better against armored.
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I was been having trouble against a zerg that maxes fast with hydras and some queens, specially on maps without a pocket third where they can position between my bases and avoid half of the cannons. So I started going robo + stargate after my 8min third (instead of 2 stargates).
The first colossus is done just in time for the first hydra poke if I can delay him it a bit with forcefields and good positioning, and than I will have a good number of colossus when he is maxed. It feels much more confortable defending this way and I am preemptively positioned against a 3 base swarm host contain, but the downside is that my upgrades are delayed (I can't really afford twilight council and/or fleet beacon before setting up my fourth) and I am clearly more vulnerable against a muta switch (if I scout it in time I am fine, but if I don't it really hurts not to have a preemptive void ray ball to defend the first mutas).
Is anyone doing something similar? I am afraid I might be giving up too much by going colossus so early, should I just focus on better control/positiong to defend mass hydras+queens? I've been just experimenting at this point.
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On April 16 2013 13:19 bertu wrote:
I was been having trouble against a zerg that maxes fast with hydras and some queens, specially on maps without a pocket third where they can position between my bases and avoid half of the cannons. So I started going robo + stargate after my 8min third (instead of 2 stargates).
The first colossus is done just in time for the first hydra poke if I can delay him it a bit with forcefields and good positioning, and than I will have a good number of colossus when he is maxed. It feels much more confortable defending this way and I am preemptively positioned against a 3 base swarm host contain, but the downside is that my upgrades are delayed (I can't really afford twilight council and/or fleet beacon before setting up my fourth) and I am clearly more vulnerable against a muta switch (if I scout it in time I am fine, but if I don't it really hurts not to have a preemptive void ray ball to defend the first mutas).
Is anyone doing something similar? I am afraid I might be giving up too much by going colossus so early, should I just focus on better control/positiong to defend mass hydras+queens? I've been just experimenting at this point.
While faster colo does work, I think by doing so you're not really doing this build anymore - the essence of this build is use mass voids to counter hydras - which typically are the counter to voids. The other thing is even with colo, I don't see how that helps you defend on maps with hard to defend 3rds (where like you said they can just position their army between your natural and 3rd).
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Those are good points, thanks. I still have a good number of void rays (two stargate production), but it's not mass air anymore since I halt air production at times. I haven't faced a super good zerg that splits well his max hydra/queen army against colossus+VR, the better players I face just back down and start teching to something else when they see colossus.
For anyone interested, here are replays of what I was doing (ignore late game bad play, it's just to show to the initial BO up till 12min):
http://drop.sc/324231
http://drop.sc/324375
http://drop.sc/324374
I will keep experimenting more.
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more and more zergs are figuring out the airstyle now I think. Voids are not good at all against hydra's and this build is not really that strong. The power lies in having a smooth transition to an almost complete air composition which though strong is really not that unbeatable. On a more open map it's much better to just go mildly on stargate units, just 1 stargate worth and not neccesarily all voids and transition into an air heavier composition later if you want.
Still I hope they nerf this style a bit. Even though I think it's perfectly beatable it causes the most dreadful games thinkable. Mass cannon styles should never be viable in top play, action packed play needs to be promoted not some sort of deathball extreme.
My suggestion would be to give the corruptor some sort of AoE ability to replace the most boring ability in the game right now: corrupt. Hopefully that would give zerg a better answer to MASS air like muta's and void/tempest/carrier. Not because I think they absolutely need it for balance but just because it's also good to nerf strategies for boredom reasons.
Afterall it's quite silly to give Z the swarmhost to have an option to push turtling players yet hots actually faces more boring turtling in some cases..
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I have trouqble against zergs that harass witg hydras and attack with a max hydra infestor comp. I think you need storm to beat it but then it goes back to turtle zerg with swarm host static defense which toss can't beat. This build might be good on maps like neoplanet where zerg can't turtle but otherwise skytoss isn't the best
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nvm just noticed someone posted replays
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Is this build still being used currently? How do you deal with hydra swarmhost corruptor ?
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EPT
