Seeing as I am only a Diamond (EU) player, Window Mines have been giving me headaches, much like everyone else below mid-masters I suspect. I have seen VODS of pros sniping Window Mines with pure Muta, I thought I would drop into a unit tester today and work out how to do it. As my results were AWESOME I wanted to make a short guide telling my fellow mid- and especially lower- leaguers how it's done!
Behold! MSPaint!
DANGER! DANGER! IF THERE ARE MARINES BEHIND THE MINES REMEMBER TO SHIFT-CLICK AWAY AFTER RIGHT-CLICKING THE MINE OR YOU WILL EAT LEAD!
Edit: Clarification - 'double-click when arriving here' refers to a double right-click of the ground (this will bunch your mutas and bring your overseer forward into the group for spotting).
Upgrades: I have tested the upgrades for +attack on Mutas and +armour on Widow Mines and they are 1:1, as follows:
10 unupgraded Mutas kill 1 unupgraded Widow Mine in 1 volley (your most likely situation in a 12 min push);
Also, if you're not getting upgrades for muta attack: 13 unupgraded Mutas kill 1 armour +2 Widow Mine; 15 unupgraded Mutas kill 1 armour +3 Widow Mine.
Additionally:
Because I'm a Diamond League show-off (!) I also tried to micro 2 groups of 10 +0attack Mutas (20 Mutas) into two +0armour Widow Mines burrowed touching each other. With the two groups hitting together (i.e. I started one group slightly further back so I could give commands in turn to each group), I took 0 losses and killed both mines. So as long as you have 20 Mutas (depending on ups), double-burrowing mines will not help the Terran to kill your Mutas - because you, like me, are a badass.
other ways of disabling mines:
-Overlords (maybe make a couple extra when the push is coming) will take 2 shots to kill so you can disable 1 or 2 mines with 1 ovie.
-Individual/small groups of Zerglings. Press your Zergling control group, left click a portrait and right click inside mine radius, shift click hold position.
-What Life did, and I, like you, will likely not be replicating that. There's a guide on it on TL the other day, check it out!!!
You can see that I am an average player (not yet good), and that I walzed my lings and then mutas into some widow mines. BUT THEN I methodically picked some off and won. I could just have easily have lost all the mutas, or lost my mutas and lings, so I think this game is a good example of the difference it makes to micro (and to wait for your overseers to catch up!).
Thanks I just thought that there's got to be a way that's accessible to everyone, and I think this, and some ling/overlord sacs really gives us a fighting chance. After all, Blizz wants us Zerg to have more of a thoughtful game instead of pure macro and I'm with them on that. The Life/Flash games were just scintillating to watch!
Govie I'm so down with that, Wayne's World 2 was on last night in the UK! ('and I had to beat them to death with their own shoes' is just the best line).
I dont get it. What you're basically saying is, have an overseer, pack your mutas so they hit all at same time and have enough to one shot mines? Or is there something more i didnt get?
1) make sure you pack your mutas near the mine rather than a screen away. This is important because your overseer will then not be spotting the mine when you're supposed to be clicking it (and you will eat the shot)
2) not be too close to the mine (in the radius) which may mean the acceleration of the mutas may mean you eat the shot
3) know the number of Mutas you need per your opponent's upgrade to avoid embarassment
4) be aware of other ways to avoid mines
5) enjoy the glory of MSPaint like the reveller above ( <3 to you btw)
You also have a replay of me doing it badly and then adequately, and you can see the difference it made in the game.
Oh and if you mean to insinuate that everyone knows this already, well I didn't, and certainly not that it was workable at my level (and with my atrocious apm). I wrote this guide for people at my level or lower on TL who are having trouble with WM, which is probably most of us.
On March 26 2013 05:11 Stardroid wrote: Natalya, if you follow the guide you will also -
1) make sure you pack your mutas near the mine rather than a screen away. This is important because your overseer will then not be spotting the mine when you're supposed to be clicking it (and you will eat the shot)
2) not be too close to the mine (in the radius) which may mean the acceleration of the mutas may mean you eat the shot
3) know the number of Mutas you need per your opponent's upgrade to avoid embarassment
4) be aware of other ways to avoid mines
5) enjoy the glory of MSPaint like the reveller above ( <3 to you btw)
You also have a replay of me doing it badly and then adequately, and you can see the difference it made in the game.
Oh and if you mean to insinuate that everyone knows this already, well I didn't, and certainly not that it was workable at my level (and with my atrocious apm). I wrote this guide for people at my level or lower on TL who are having trouble with WM, which is probably most of us.
yes so pretty much to kill widow mines by rightclicking by having enough mutas to oneshot them...
On March 26 2013 06:43 agahamsorr0w wrote: It doesnt work if there are more than one widow mines in vicinity. the other one will shoot at ur mutas.
I think he said the answer to that was to have 2 groups of mutas then to attack each widow mine with a separate group. Nice going with the paint, actually relatively explanatory, now for people to stop whining!
On March 26 2013 06:43 agahamsorr0w wrote: It doesnt work if there are more than one widow mines in vicinity. the other one will shoot at ur mutas.
I think he said the answer to that was to have 2 groups of mutas then to attack each widow mine with a separate group. Nice going with the paint, actually relatively explanatory, now for people to stop whining!
I think its easier and more efficient to just let some mutas die to widow mines and deal damage rather than taking the time to split mutas in separate groups. I've played a quite a bit of zvt vs bio widow mine with mass (30+) muta.
On March 26 2013 06:43 agahamsorr0w wrote: It doesnt work if there are more than one widow mines in vicinity. the other one will shoot at ur mutas.
I think he said the answer to that was to have 2 groups of mutas then to attack each widow mine with a separate group. Nice going with the paint, actually relatively explanatory, now for people to stop whining!
I think its easier and more efficient to just let some mutas die to widow mines and deal damage rather than taking the time to split mutas in separate groups. I've played a quite a bit of zvt vs bio widow mine with mass (30+) muta.
I always imagined as Zerg you'd like to have your mutas on two hotkeys if you had that many, harass at two bases seems pretty good. I never play Z though so I wouldn't know what's actually going on. ^^
On March 26 2013 06:43 agahamsorr0w wrote: It doesnt work if there are more than one widow mines in vicinity. the other one will shoot at ur mutas.
It takes 2 mines to kill an overseer. So to do it vs 2 mines let the overseer tank 1 shot the use the mutas to kill the active one then the deactivated one.
On March 26 2013 06:43 agahamsorr0w wrote: It doesnt work if there are more than one widow mines in vicinity. the other one will shoot at ur mutas.
I think he said the answer to that was to have 2 groups of mutas then to attack each widow mine with a separate group. Nice going with the paint, actually relatively explanatory, now for people to stop whining!
I think its easier and more efficient to just let some mutas die to widow mines and deal damage rather than taking the time to split mutas in separate groups. I've played a quite a bit of zvt vs bio widow mine with mass (30+) muta.
I always imagined as Zerg you'd like to have your mutas on two hotkeys if you had that many, harass at two bases seems pretty good. I never play Z though so I wouldn't know what's actually going on. ^^
mutas escalate in strenght exponentially with high numbers so having 40 mutas in 1 control group is not only better but less risky than having 40 mutas in 2 hotkeys. You just risk taking aoe damage but with the rapid regen i guess its almost irrelevant taking shots from thors. The only problem is widow mines, which one shot mutas and deal splash.
You can easily snipe a command center guarded by 6-10 turrets if the terran is out of position with 40 muta.
I second a YouTube. Despite being the OP I'm crap with da internetz.
As for the 2 widow mines or more issue, remember that they need to be overlapping within about 2 range of each other because your Mutas have 3 range and the second (or third!) mine requires 5 range, assuming that you're not shooting the mine at the back (whoops!), so when you're shooting down 1 mine you may or may not be in range of another. Just don't push your luck if they're right next to each other but please do engage when they are a bit more spread out. From what I've seen they're either peppered around or clumped up, and if they're peppered around pick them off using the micro. However, even if they're fairly concentrated the Mutas can still snipe. I suggest going into unit tester and looking at what the overlapping range is for the Muta snipe and look for this in your games.
I did say that in the unit tester I can micro 2 groups of 10 lings to take out 2 clumped mines, and I suppose you could do a trial and error to take out 3 (from correct angles), but even killing 2 mines this way is incredibly impractical and not something I can do consistently, I really said that for illustrative purposes because it hammers the point home that this is winning micro, not because it's good in a game. Expecting to take out 3 with 30 mutas would be kinda nuts :D
If there are two mines on top of each other, best bet is to send something else in, like a couple of lings or an ovie. you could take one out with mutas and eat a shot, but unless it's a crucial situation you shouldn't want to do that (you waste a Muta and take damage on the rest = big win for Terran). This isn't a magic bullet micro for Widow Mines in every situation, but it IS a magic bullet for Widow Mines that are:
1) not on top of each other in a clump (bye bye mutas) 2) not attended by marines right next to them (you shouldn't want to engage that anyway) 3) out in the open, or sometimes messing up your territory, like one in between your nat and third, the 'cheeky ones' 4) guarding some space such as the entrance to an expo, or the back of a base
So we're left with the clumped mines and I've done some testing (and I saw this in VODS too!), I suggest overlords are the best way to get rid of clumped widow-mines (i.e. sac 1 or 2 ovies in and follow up with lings while they're on cooldown = mineral solution to a gas investment!). I think banes are a terrible overcommitment to taking out clumped mines. You will need ovie speed for this, and it's available early if you spot a factory all-in! It also researches hella fast.
I'm glad Blizzard hasn't nerfed anything too heavily yet. Just as they hoped, people such as the OP are figuring out ways to micro against things that were (and maybe still are) considered OP. Great guide! Now time to roll some Terrans.
I just went back to the unit tester and you can snipe mines that are effectively right next to each other! The only way to avoid this is for Terran to have them almost touching each other, I mean really tightly packed, which isn't exactly space control!
Natalya - Marine splits had to be figured out, I remember seeing MarineKing doing it and thinking 'but who but MarineKing can do that'! lol
This is almost comparable although mines are more of a support unit (banelings and fungals were pretty much essential to Zerg for the longest time), but of course I don't claim to have invented it, it was done in the beta by the pros! Life ftw by the way!
And if you want to not have your lings die to them you can box the first 1-3 lings and peel them back as you enter the mine's radius. I'm doing this now in unit tester and I'm losing 1 ling every time. EZ.
Blizzard you are forgiven. This average gamer is now comfortable with Widow Mines. Thank you for a thoughtful and skillful addition to SC2!!
On March 26 2013 08:39 Stardroid wrote: And if you want to not have your lings die to them you can box the first 1-3 lings and peel them back as you enter the mine's radius. I'm doing this now in unit tester and I'm losing 1 ling every time. EZ.
Blizzard you are forgiven. This average gamer is now comfortable with Widow Mines. Thank you for a thoughtful and skillful addition to SC2!!
I get this... but practicing something in a unit tester and saying its EZ are extremely different
I can micro 10 lings just as well as Life, if that's all I need to do.
Yeah I get your point but the Muta micro isn't that much harder than putting the mines down in the first place, and your advantage in doing so is really a lot considering how it allows you to engage with a surround. As for lings if you're a-moving your lings into terran and looking away that's a bad choice! It only takes a second to peel some lings away from the front of your force. Of course, under stress, it will not be anywhere near what I can achieve in the unit tester, but that's the nature of the game and the more we play actual games utilising proper micro, the more comfortable we will be and the more consistently we will avoid damage imho.
On March 26 2013 08:22 Stardroid wrote: Natalya - Marine splits had to be figured out, I remember seeing MarineKing doing it and thinking 'but who but MarineKing can do that'! lol
This is almost comparable although mines are more of a support unit (banelings and fungals were pretty much essential to Zerg for the longest time), but of course I don't claim to have invented it, it was done in the beta by the pros! Life ftw by the way!
marine-split was already standard 15 years ago in broodwar or even starcraft.
I read this thread and thought I am stupid I as I dont get the clue until I saw this post:
On March 26 2013 08:05 Natalya wrote: the move command past the mines is useless... Just clump your mutas, spot with overseer, click on the mine. That's it. This thread is not worth it.
I mean this would be the same as a thread saying "split your marines vs fungal"...
is this a guide that basically says: 1. scout the widow mine 2. right click it with your mutalisks
I mean really???
None of the real issues with widow mines are adressed here. I am thinking about widow mines that are mixed into the bio ball and kill all banes/lings when you try to engage it as the terran can just stim move back few centimeters and lets you run into the mines. I am thinking about how widow mines make any early aggression/harrassment vs terran a stupid random suicide mission and therefore change metagame into terran is unattackable mode. I think about widow mines that are randomly dropped into your eco to easily prevent you mining or even kill half your eco instantly and those mines that potentially kill all your mutalisks when you just fly into terran mainbase to harrass some buildings. What does this guide help about any of these things?
On March 27 2013 06:58 _Barbarossa_ wrote: Has anyone run into mine armies? Like 50 or so? As zerg, I am unsure how to react.
replay pls?
It sounds very unlikely a terran would go mass widow mine with nothing else. he would need a lot of time to do it and a lot of factories to make that many widow mines. I'm guessing mass baneling would do very well if spread correctly.
On March 27 2013 06:58 _Barbarossa_ wrote: Has anyone run into mine armies? Like 50 or so? As zerg, I am unsure how to react.
wow. that's...ridiculous. I would think swarm hosts would destroy pure mines. Or at that point, broodlords. Seems like it'd be hard for T to put on much pressure with just mines, but I've never played against anything quite like this.
On March 26 2013 08:31 Stardroid wrote: A way to deal with clumped mines!
Use changelings. Yes, CHANGELINGS DETONATE MINES! send em in one at a time. EZ
Interesting. My changelings did not detonate his mines. Also, while this is an interesting thread is it really relevant or is it just for when a T has random mines on the map? I usually dont face those much, usually there is a rather large ball of bio + medivacs
I would just like to add to this that overlord speed upgrade increases the movement speed of your overseers as well. It's a worthwhile investment to help it keep up with your mutalisks so you can spot mines ahead of time.
Also having your overseer follow your mutalisks instead of being in your mutalisk control group is useful since it won't rush forward and get killed. But if the muta it's following dies it will stop so you have to pay attention to that. I prefer the follow method. I use this method for vipers and infestors too. You can still have them in their own control groups but you no longer need to move them separately all the time.
Has anyone tried massing overlords versus a bio ball + mines? I'm having great results in unit tester.
Just throw your ovies into the ball when the mines are burrowed - preferably from high ground so that they can get into the marines without your opponent microing away or unburrowing the mines. They will make it in before they all die and the splash from the mines destroy the marines underneath. You don't even need a huge ling count to clean up and this response can be pure minerals. Even better is mixing in overseers because they have 1 armour and get in faste (but fir mass you should still have plenty of ovies.
This requires getting overlord speed ofc. Try like 60 marines and 10 mines vs 15 ovies, 5 overseers, or something of the kind. You really don't need to continue ling production as long as you have 50 or so for the clean up (you may need less depending on damage dealt), so it's kind of counter-intuitive to make ovies in response to a push but it seems to work. If the units are spread out all the better for your lings after your ovies (also spread) trigger the mines. In the case of big splits (expecting banes I guess) mutas are much better and can clean up directly too.
Best thing about ovie proxying is that no banes are required!
On March 26 2013 06:43 agahamsorr0w wrote: It doesnt work if there are more than one widow mines in vicinity. the other one will shoot at ur mutas.
I think he said the answer to that was to have 2 groups of mutas then to attack each widow mine with a separate group. Nice going with the paint, actually relatively explanatory, now for people to stop whining!
I think its easier and more efficient to just let some mutas die to widow mines and deal damage rather than taking the time to split mutas in separate groups. I've played a quite a bit of zvt vs bio widow mine with mass (30+) muta.
I always imagined as Zerg you'd like to have your mutas on two hotkeys if you had that many, harass at two bases seems pretty good. I never play Z though so I wouldn't know what's actually going on. ^^
mutas escalate in strenght exponentially with high numbers so having 40 mutas in 1 control group is not only better but less risky than having 40 mutas in 2 hotkeys. You just risk taking aoe damage but with the rapid regen i guess its almost irrelevant taking shots from thors. The only problem is widow mines, which one shot mutas and deal splash.
You can easily snipe a command center guarded by 6-10 turrets if the terran is out of position with 40 muta.
No they don't. The reason why you want 1pack of mutas is very simple: The opponent doesn't know where you attack with them, so he spreads himself thin to be somewhat able to drive away mutas no matter where you attack. The countermove to this is to concentrate as many mutalisks as possible at single weakspots and do as much damage as possible before reinforcements arrive. If you split up your 20mutas, you will have (10mutas fighting 10marines and 1turret)*2, so two battles you lose. Unlike if you keep them together, when you will have 20mutas fighting 10marines and 1turret which you will win and be able to pick off more stuff for a few seconds.
On March 26 2013 06:43 agahamsorr0w wrote: It doesnt work if there are more than one widow mines in vicinity. the other one will shoot at ur mutas.
I think he said the answer to that was to have 2 groups of mutas then to attack each widow mine with a separate group. Nice going with the paint, actually relatively explanatory, now for people to stop whining!
I think its easier and more efficient to just let some mutas die to widow mines and deal damage rather than taking the time to split mutas in separate groups. I've played a quite a bit of zvt vs bio widow mine with mass (30+) muta.
I always imagined as Zerg you'd like to have your mutas on two hotkeys if you had that many, harass at two bases seems pretty good. I never play Z though so I wouldn't know what's actually going on. ^^
mutas escalate in strenght exponentially with high numbers so having 40 mutas in 1 control group is not only better but less risky than having 40 mutas in 2 hotkeys. You just risk taking aoe damage but with the rapid regen i guess its almost irrelevant taking shots from thors. The only problem is widow mines, which one shot mutas and deal splash.
You can easily snipe a command center guarded by 6-10 turrets if the terran is out of position with 40 muta.
No they don't. The reason why you want 1pack of mutas is very simple: The opponent doesn't know where you attack with them, so he spreads himself thin to be somewhat able to drive away mutas no matter where you attack. The countermove to this is to concentrate as many mutalisks as possible at single weakspots and do as much damage as possible before reinforcements arrive. If you split up your 20mutas, you will have (10mutas fighting 10marines and 1turret)*2, so two battles you lose. Unlike if you keep them together, when you will have 20mutas fighting 10marines and 1turret which you will win and be able to pick off more stuff for a few seconds.
You seem to be agreeing with each other, mutas grow exponentially in strength because 40 mutas is more then twice as good as 20 mutas, because of the things you described. Mutas really profit from the shock and awe effect.
On March 26 2013 06:43 agahamsorr0w wrote: It doesnt work if there are more than one widow mines in vicinity. the other one will shoot at ur mutas.
I think he said the answer to that was to have 2 groups of mutas then to attack each widow mine with a separate group. Nice going with the paint, actually relatively explanatory, now for people to stop whining!
I think its easier and more efficient to just let some mutas die to widow mines and deal damage rather than taking the time to split mutas in separate groups. I've played a quite a bit of zvt vs bio widow mine with mass (30+) muta.
I always imagined as Zerg you'd like to have your mutas on two hotkeys if you had that many, harass at two bases seems pretty good. I never play Z though so I wouldn't know what's actually going on. ^^
mutas escalate in strenght exponentially with high numbers so having 40 mutas in 1 control group is not only better but less risky than having 40 mutas in 2 hotkeys. You just risk taking aoe damage but with the rapid regen i guess its almost irrelevant taking shots from thors. The only problem is widow mines, which one shot mutas and deal splash.
You can easily snipe a command center guarded by 6-10 turrets if the terran is out of position with 40 muta.
No they don't. The reason why you want 1pack of mutas is very simple: The opponent doesn't know where you attack with them, so he spreads himself thin to be somewhat able to drive away mutas no matter where you attack. The countermove to this is to concentrate as many mutalisks as possible at single weakspots and do as much damage as possible before reinforcements arrive. If you split up your 20mutas, you will have (10mutas fighting 10marines and 1turret)*2, so two battles you lose. Unlike if you keep them together, when you will have 20mutas fighting 10marines and 1turret which you will win and be able to pick off more stuff for a few seconds.
You seem to be agreeing with each other, mutas grow exponentially in strength because 40 mutas is more then twice as good as 20 mutas, because of the things you described. Mutas really profit from the shock and awe effect.
`
yeah basically the purpose of mutas is to harrass and deal damage/divide attention. We can take roaches as example. 40 roaches are just as scary as 20 roaches. Their strenght doesnt grow exponentially but actually diminish per unit once you reach a specific ammount of roaches (we are talking about zvt).
On March 26 2013 06:43 agahamsorr0w wrote: It doesnt work if there are more than one widow mines in vicinity. the other one will shoot at ur mutas.
I think he said the answer to that was to have 2 groups of mutas then to attack each widow mine with a separate group. Nice going with the paint, actually relatively explanatory, now for people to stop whining!
I think its easier and more efficient to just let some mutas die to widow mines and deal damage rather than taking the time to split mutas in separate groups. I've played a quite a bit of zvt vs bio widow mine with mass (30+) muta.
I always imagined as Zerg you'd like to have your mutas on two hotkeys if you had that many, harass at two bases seems pretty good. I never play Z though so I wouldn't know what's actually going on. ^^
mutas escalate in strenght exponentially with high numbers so having 40 mutas in 1 control group is not only better but less risky than having 40 mutas in 2 hotkeys. You just risk taking aoe damage but with the rapid regen i guess its almost irrelevant taking shots from thors. The only problem is widow mines, which one shot mutas and deal splash.
You can easily snipe a command center guarded by 6-10 turrets if the terran is out of position with 40 muta.
No they don't. The reason why you want 1pack of mutas is very simple: The opponent doesn't know where you attack with them, so he spreads himself thin to be somewhat able to drive away mutas no matter where you attack. The countermove to this is to concentrate as many mutalisks as possible at single weakspots and do as much damage as possible before reinforcements arrive. If you split up your 20mutas, you will have (10mutas fighting 10marines and 1turret)*2, so two battles you lose. Unlike if you keep them together, when you will have 20mutas fighting 10marines and 1turret which you will win and be able to pick off more stuff for a few seconds.
You seem to be agreeing with each other, mutas grow exponentially in strength because 40 mutas is more then twice as good as 20 mutas, because of the things you described. Mutas really profit from the shock and awe effect.
What I described was not an exponential growth in strength. All you do is attack where your opponent is not. That doesn't make 40mutalisks over 2times stronger than 20mutalisks. Even more, due to their low damage, low range nature mutalisks rather grow logarithmic in strength, compared to standard ranged singlefire units in Starcraft.
On March 26 2013 06:43 agahamsorr0w wrote: It doesnt work if there are more than one widow mines in vicinity. the other one will shoot at ur mutas.
I think he said the answer to that was to have 2 groups of mutas then to attack each widow mine with a separate group. Nice going with the paint, actually relatively explanatory, now for people to stop whining!
I think its easier and more efficient to just let some mutas die to widow mines and deal damage rather than taking the time to split mutas in separate groups. I've played a quite a bit of zvt vs bio widow mine with mass (30+) muta.
I always imagined as Zerg you'd like to have your mutas on two hotkeys if you had that many, harass at two bases seems pretty good. I never play Z though so I wouldn't know what's actually going on. ^^
mutas escalate in strenght exponentially with high numbers so having 40 mutas in 1 control group is not only better but less risky than having 40 mutas in 2 hotkeys. You just risk taking aoe damage but with the rapid regen i guess its almost irrelevant taking shots from thors. The only problem is widow mines, which one shot mutas and deal splash.
You can easily snipe a command center guarded by 6-10 turrets if the terran is out of position with 40 muta.
No they don't. The reason why you want 1pack of mutas is very simple: The opponent doesn't know where you attack with them, so he spreads himself thin to be somewhat able to drive away mutas no matter where you attack. The countermove to this is to concentrate as many mutalisks as possible at single weakspots and do as much damage as possible before reinforcements arrive. If you split up your 20mutas, you will have (10mutas fighting 10marines and 1turret)*2, so two battles you lose. Unlike if you keep them together, when you will have 20mutas fighting 10marines and 1turret which you will win and be able to pick off more stuff for a few seconds.
You seem to be agreeing with each other, mutas grow exponentially in strength because 40 mutas is more then twice as good as 20 mutas, because of the things you described. Mutas really profit from the shock and awe effect.
What I described was not an exponential growth in strength. All you do is attack where your opponent is not. That doesn't make 40mutalisks over 2times stronger than 20mutalisks. Even more, due to their low damage, low range nature mutalisks rather grow logarithmic in strength, compared to standard ranged singlefire units in Starcraft.
Given that this is a real time strategy, the place you attack is always low on defense when going mutas and terran needs time to move his army to defend so depending on your muta count, you can either kill 6 turrets and a couple of addons or kill 6 turrets and a command centre. See where im going at?
Some observations if you don't want to watch the video: 1. Shift clicking back after targeting down the widow mines sometimes screws up and gets your bunched up flock shot up.
2. The range of widow mines is very big. It is very easy to screw this up.
3. Staggered Mines are better for anti ling decoys.
4!!!!
The most important part of this micro is getting all of the mutalisk shots in before disengaging. Timing is utterly crucial when clicking to move away. A single straggler and your whole flock will suffer damage.
On March 26 2013 06:43 agahamsorr0w wrote: It doesnt work if there are more than one widow mines in vicinity. the other one will shoot at ur mutas.
I think he said the answer to that was to have 2 groups of mutas then to attack each widow mine with a separate group. Nice going with the paint, actually relatively explanatory, now for people to stop whining!
I think its easier and more efficient to just let some mutas die to widow mines and deal damage rather than taking the time to split mutas in separate groups. I've played a quite a bit of zvt vs bio widow mine with mass (30+) muta.
I always imagined as Zerg you'd like to have your mutas on two hotkeys if you had that many, harass at two bases seems pretty good. I never play Z though so I wouldn't know what's actually going on. ^^
mutas escalate in strenght exponentially with high numbers so having 40 mutas in 1 control group is not only better but less risky than having 40 mutas in 2 hotkeys. You just risk taking aoe damage but with the rapid regen i guess its almost irrelevant taking shots from thors. The only problem is widow mines, which one shot mutas and deal splash.
You can easily snipe a command center guarded by 6-10 turrets if the terran is out of position with 40 muta.
No they don't. The reason why you want 1pack of mutas is very simple: The opponent doesn't know where you attack with them, so he spreads himself thin to be somewhat able to drive away mutas no matter where you attack. The countermove to this is to concentrate as many mutalisks as possible at single weakspots and do as much damage as possible before reinforcements arrive. If you split up your 20mutas, you will have (10mutas fighting 10marines and 1turret)*2, so two battles you lose. Unlike if you keep them together, when you will have 20mutas fighting 10marines and 1turret which you will win and be able to pick off more stuff for a few seconds.
You seem to be agreeing with each other, mutas grow exponentially in strength because 40 mutas is more then twice as good as 20 mutas, because of the things you described. Mutas really profit from the shock and awe effect.
What I described was not an exponential growth in strength. All you do is attack where your opponent is not. That doesn't make 40mutalisks over 2times stronger than 20mutalisks. Even more, due to their low damage, low range nature mutalisks rather grow logarithmic in strength, compared to standard ranged singlefire units in Starcraft.
With 40 mutas wouldn't it be sensible to split into two forces if you had the multitasking? 20 mutas is pretty scary and I'm sure would do damage. Just guessing here, like I said, I'm not a Zerg player.
On March 26 2013 06:43 agahamsorr0w wrote: It doesnt work if there are more than one widow mines in vicinity. the other one will shoot at ur mutas.
I think he said the answer to that was to have 2 groups of mutas then to attack each widow mine with a separate group. Nice going with the paint, actually relatively explanatory, now for people to stop whining!
I think its easier and more efficient to just let some mutas die to widow mines and deal damage rather than taking the time to split mutas in separate groups. I've played a quite a bit of zvt vs bio widow mine with mass (30+) muta.
I always imagined as Zerg you'd like to have your mutas on two hotkeys if you had that many, harass at two bases seems pretty good. I never play Z though so I wouldn't know what's actually going on. ^^
mutas escalate in strenght exponentially with high numbers so having 40 mutas in 1 control group is not only better but less risky than having 40 mutas in 2 hotkeys. You just risk taking aoe damage but with the rapid regen i guess its almost irrelevant taking shots from thors. The only problem is widow mines, which one shot mutas and deal splash.
You can easily snipe a command center guarded by 6-10 turrets if the terran is out of position with 40 muta.
No they don't. The reason why you want 1pack of mutas is very simple: The opponent doesn't know where you attack with them, so he spreads himself thin to be somewhat able to drive away mutas no matter where you attack. The countermove to this is to concentrate as many mutalisks as possible at single weakspots and do as much damage as possible before reinforcements arrive. If you split up your 20mutas, you will have (10mutas fighting 10marines and 1turret)*2, so two battles you lose. Unlike if you keep them together, when you will have 20mutas fighting 10marines and 1turret which you will win and be able to pick off more stuff for a few seconds.
You seem to be agreeing with each other, mutas grow exponentially in strength because 40 mutas is more then twice as good as 20 mutas, because of the things you described. Mutas really profit from the shock and awe effect.
What I described was not an exponential growth in strength. All you do is attack where your opponent is not. That doesn't make 40mutalisks over 2times stronger than 20mutalisks. Even more, due to their low damage, low range nature mutalisks rather grow logarithmic in strength, compared to standard ranged singlefire units in Starcraft.
With 40 mutas wouldn't it be sensible to split into two forces if you had the multitasking? 20 mutas is pretty scary and I'm sure would do damage. Just guessing here, like I said, I'm not a Zerg player.
Difference between things dieng instantly and it taking some time for things to die is huge. Don't leave the enemy time to repair, or send troops.
Not to mention how hard it is so micro two muta groups at a time. Twice as likely to get caught off guard by widow or marines.
On March 26 2013 06:43 agahamsorr0w wrote: It doesnt work if there are more than one widow mines in vicinity. the other one will shoot at ur mutas.
I think he said the answer to that was to have 2 groups of mutas then to attack each widow mine with a separate group. Nice going with the paint, actually relatively explanatory, now for people to stop whining!
I think its easier and more efficient to just let some mutas die to widow mines and deal damage rather than taking the time to split mutas in separate groups. I've played a quite a bit of zvt vs bio widow mine with mass (30+) muta.
I always imagined as Zerg you'd like to have your mutas on two hotkeys if you had that many, harass at two bases seems pretty good. I never play Z though so I wouldn't know what's actually going on. ^^
mutas escalate in strenght exponentially with high numbers so having 40 mutas in 1 control group is not only better but less risky than having 40 mutas in 2 hotkeys. You just risk taking aoe damage but with the rapid regen i guess its almost irrelevant taking shots from thors. The only problem is widow mines, which one shot mutas and deal splash.
You can easily snipe a command center guarded by 6-10 turrets if the terran is out of position with 40 muta.
No they don't. The reason why you want 1pack of mutas is very simple: The opponent doesn't know where you attack with them, so he spreads himself thin to be somewhat able to drive away mutas no matter where you attack. The countermove to this is to concentrate as many mutalisks as possible at single weakspots and do as much damage as possible before reinforcements arrive. If you split up your 20mutas, you will have (10mutas fighting 10marines and 1turret)*2, so two battles you lose. Unlike if you keep them together, when you will have 20mutas fighting 10marines and 1turret which you will win and be able to pick off more stuff for a few seconds.
You seem to be agreeing with each other, mutas grow exponentially in strength because 40 mutas is more then twice as good as 20 mutas, because of the things you described. Mutas really profit from the shock and awe effect.
What I described was not an exponential growth in strength. All you do is attack where your opponent is not. That doesn't make 40mutalisks over 2times stronger than 20mutalisks. Even more, due to their low damage, low range nature mutalisks rather grow logarithmic in strength, compared to standard ranged singlefire units in Starcraft.
With 40 mutas wouldn't it be sensible to split into two forces if you had the multitasking? 20 mutas is pretty scary and I'm sure would do damage. Just guessing here, like I said, I'm not a Zerg player.
Difference between things dieng instantly and it taking some time for things to die is huge. Don't leave the enemy time to repair, or send troops.
Not to mention how hard it is so micro two muta groups at a time. Twice as likely to get caught off guard by widow or marines.
First point makes sense, second point I was going with the assumption the player could control 2 groups of mutas.
I don't understand any of this. What's the point of the move command and all that "it takes practise" etc? I just keep my mutas bunched and right click / a click the widow mines to kill them before they shoot?
Some observations if you don't want to watch the video: 1. Shift clicking back after targeting down the widow mines sometimes screws up and gets your bunched up flock shot up.
2. The range of widow mines is very big. It is very easy to screw this up.
3. Staggered Mines are better for anti ling decoys.
4!!!!
The most important part of this micro is getting all of the mutalisk shots in before disengaging. Timing is utterly crucial when clicking to move away. A single straggler and your whole flock will suffer damage.
Great work! Enjoyed seeing it! Don't know how to make the shift command work
You can also 'peel' your front lings off at a right angle if you have an ovie spotting the mine and it's in front of marines. If you're deselecting 2 lings to tank shots the fact that marines will kill the lings means that it won't count and you'll likely eat the shot (unless the mine gets 'confused' but you can't count on that). Boxing your front 2-4 lings works perfectly against this if you know where the mines are because you pull your decoy lings at 90 degrees as they enter range, getting them out of the way of your attacking lings and the marines for a nice fireworks display off to the side! I wonder if you could youtube that as well, it's pretty useful!
On March 26 2013 06:43 agahamsorr0w wrote: It doesnt work if there are more than one widow mines in vicinity. the other one will shoot at ur mutas.
I think he said the answer to that was to have 2 groups of mutas then to attack each widow mine with a separate group. Nice going with the paint, actually relatively explanatory, now for people to stop whining!
I think its easier and more efficient to just let some mutas die to widow mines and deal damage rather than taking the time to split mutas in separate groups. I've played a quite a bit of zvt vs bio widow mine with mass (30+) muta.
I always imagined as Zerg you'd like to have your mutas on two hotkeys if you had that many, harass at two bases seems pretty good. I never play Z though so I wouldn't know what's actually going on. ^^
mutas escalate in strenght exponentially with high numbers so having 40 mutas in 1 control group is not only better but less risky than having 40 mutas in 2 hotkeys. You just risk taking aoe damage but with the rapid regen i guess its almost irrelevant taking shots from thors. The only problem is widow mines, which one shot mutas and deal splash.
You can easily snipe a command center guarded by 6-10 turrets if the terran is out of position with 40 muta.
No they don't. The reason why you want 1pack of mutas is very simple: The opponent doesn't know where you attack with them, so he spreads himself thin to be somewhat able to drive away mutas no matter where you attack. The countermove to this is to concentrate as many mutalisks as possible at single weakspots and do as much damage as possible before reinforcements arrive. If you split up your 20mutas, you will have (10mutas fighting 10marines and 1turret)*2, so two battles you lose. Unlike if you keep them together, when you will have 20mutas fighting 10marines and 1turret which you will win and be able to pick off more stuff for a few seconds.
You seem to be agreeing with each other, mutas grow exponentially in strength because 40 mutas is more then twice as good as 20 mutas, because of the things you described. Mutas really profit from the shock and awe effect.
Can we cool it with the exponentially? Everything that more than doubles with double the numbers is not automatically an exponential increase. We are comparing the effects of split harassment with a united army with great capability of unleashing damaging barrages in both cases. Both you and your opponent are hard supply capped at 200; it does matter what you spent it on and what you can do with them. No blubbering out "exponentially" and assuming that straight up fights with clumps (deathball tactics) is the best use for your army.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/EHFULb7.png)
![[image loading]](http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i179/huertaandrew/Funny%20Pictures/WereNotWorthy.jpg)
