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The HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 351

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders.
BaronVonOwn
Profile Joined April 2011
299 Posts
May 20 2015 19:37 GMT
#7001
Is immortal/sentry a good all-around comp or is it always an all-in? I'm looking for a protoss strat that allows you to be active on the map without risking the whole game. I distinctly remember several games from Stardust's Dreamhack run where this strat usually resulted in some long battles with lots of trading. Zealot/archon might also fit the bill but it seems easier to counter.
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-05-20 19:40:59
May 20 2015 19:40 GMT
#7002
It's only useful to allin. In PvP and PvT you need colossi, in PvZ it's not versatile enough and +2 blink stalker/sentry are a better midgame composition.

Stardust was all-in in those Dreamhack games for that it's worth, his third was just to fake out his opponents.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
Shield
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Bulgaria4824 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-05-20 19:55:54
May 20 2015 19:55 GMT
#7003
On May 21 2015 04:37 BaronVonOwn wrote:
Is immortal/sentry a good all-around comp or is it always an all-in? I'm looking for a protoss strat that allows you to be active on the map without risking the whole game. I distinctly remember several games from Stardust's Dreamhack run where this strat usually resulted in some long battles with lots of trading. Zealot/archon might also fit the bill but it seems easier to counter.


It's not all-in as far as I've heard. It can be either all-in or transition to 3rd base but without the investment that all-in does. I find blink style to be more versatile though because of mutalisks.
KingAlphard
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
Italy1705 Posts
May 20 2015 20:06 GMT
#7004
The point of the immortal sentry composition is to hit early enough so that the zerg players can't have hydras out in time. Once hydras are out it becomes trash. Of course if you can reach 150 supply with blink stalkers it's ok again, but it will definitely be harder considering that you delayed your economy by unnecessarily getting immortals early on.

The best way to be really aggressive early on against zerg and possibly transition is probably San's 4 gate style.
BaronVonOwn
Profile Joined April 2011
299 Posts
May 20 2015 21:00 GMT
#7005
On May 21 2015 04:40 Teoita wrote:
It's only useful to allin. In PvP and PvT you need colossi, in PvZ it's not versatile enough and +2 blink stalker/sentry are a better midgame composition.

Stardust was all-in in those Dreamhack games for that it's worth, his third was just to fake out his opponents.

you know.... I think I'll actually give stalkers a try. As a zerg main and someone who can read liquipedia stat sheets I've learned a certain contempt for stalkers but if you factor in guardian shield they can trade fairly with most threats. They're always going to get shrekt by marauders though :3 Anyway thanks for the replies.
Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
May 21 2015 02:56 GMT
#7006
On May 21 2015 06:00 BaronVonOwn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 21 2015 04:40 Teoita wrote:
It's only useful to allin. In PvP and PvT you need colossi, in PvZ it's not versatile enough and +2 blink stalker/sentry are a better midgame composition.

Stardust was all-in in those Dreamhack games for that it's worth, his third was just to fake out his opponents.

you know.... I think I'll actually give stalkers a try. As a zerg main and someone who can read liquipedia stat sheets I've learned a certain contempt for stalkers but if you factor in guardian shield they can trade fairly with most threats. They're always going to get shrekt by marauders though :3 Anyway thanks for the replies.


You don't use a heavy stalker army in PvT, but you do in PvZ. Stalkers with blink trade quite well against anything zerg has in the midgame with proper micro and sentry support. PvT stalkers can do okay in small to middling numbers, but they start to fail hard once the medivac number gets high. You still want around 12 of them to blink in and pick units off, but you need high DPS to deal with the terran ball with medivacs, and stalkers have durability, not damage output.

Stalker/Colossus balls can work as an all-in very well however, squirtle did a lot of them.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
Icekin
Profile Joined December 2014
88 Posts
May 21 2015 17:45 GMT
#7007
Guys I need your help. I'm havin hyge problems in PvP. I'm currently master standing 70% in pvz and pvt but I only have 30% in pvp.
I loose every single game.

I left cheesy opening when I got promoted in diamond, and my pvp went down from there.
I usually open 2 gate+tech: almost every time I open robo to counter fast dt or blink pressure, while I get my 2nd.

First question here: enemy opens phoenix, wich is the best way to deal with them? stalker+cannons, then tech ht as fast as I can? I don't want to tech blink, it's pretty useless in pvp late game, and it requires too much attention to deal with phoenix this way imho. Opening phoenix would be the best answer I guess, but sometimes i cannot scout it in time and i'm behind the phoenix war.

when 2 base are running, mid game: what to do? i usually try some immortal drop, sometimes works, sometimes not. I mainly aim for their nexus, I wonder if is not better aim for precius tech like robo, bay or forges, what do u guys think?

Late game: this is where I loose every time, mainly because while I'm harassing -and I DO some damage-, enemy just rush in to my base with whole army and kills me.

So...does harassing in mid game is risky ? Because it leave me with less units for late game engage...Shall I stay passive being less aggressive and keeping my unit count higher than enemy?

I need some general advice because I keep harassing, doing damage, but I have every time less units to kill enemy. Or shall I warp more often?
KingAlphard
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
Italy1705 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-05-21 23:19:58
May 21 2015 23:08 GMT
#7008
Blink stalker opening is the only good counter to phoenixes (except for your own phoenixes), everything else kinda sucks.
If you start blink vs phoenixes, you should play very aggressive and at least deny his expansion + contain, or even kill him directly.
If you start without blink or phoenixes, you should still get blink but you will end up behind anyway.
Not surprising that you always lose if you refuse to go blink. I can guess that your problem is that you're playing at a level where you don't have enough control/multitasking to use blink stalkers properly. If in your ladder experience blink stalkers seem weak, then going fast phoenixes yourself is probably the best way to increase your winrate.

Immortal drop is good only if your opponent doesn't have a stargate or blink. In PvP, the best way to harass is with dts/chargelot runbies/drops. Observers are very slow so if you can snipe the cannon(s) then you might do tons of damage. Obviously, it's 10x more effective if you do this while also being aggressive with your army - you might get a free base if he is out of position to counter the drop.
Another way is storm drops but it's a very big commitment, however even koreans do it sometimes and it's much more effective at lower levels, so you should give it a try.

Whitewing
Profile Joined October 2010
United States7483 Posts
May 22 2015 03:19 GMT
#7009
On May 22 2015 08:08 KingAlphard wrote:
Blink stalker opening is the only good counter to phoenixes (except for your own phoenixes), everything else kinda sucks.
If you start blink vs phoenixes, you should play very aggressive and at least deny his expansion + contain, or even kill him directly.
If you start without blink or phoenixes, you should still get blink but you will end up behind anyway.
Not surprising that you always lose if you refuse to go blink. I can guess that your problem is that you're playing at a level where you don't have enough control/multitasking to use blink stalkers properly. If in your ladder experience blink stalkers seem weak, then going fast phoenixes yourself is probably the best way to increase your winrate.

Immortal drop is good only if your opponent doesn't have a stargate or blink. In PvP, the best way to harass is with dts/chargelot runbies/drops. Observers are very slow so if you can snipe the cannon(s) then you might do tons of damage. Obviously, it's 10x more effective if you do this while also being aggressive with your army - you might get a free base if he is out of position to counter the drop.
Another way is storm drops but it's a very big commitment, however even koreans do it sometimes and it's much more effective at lower levels, so you should give it a try.



The caveat is that playing out phoenix strategies is actually harder than blink strategies.
Strategy"You know I fucking hate the way you play, right?" ~SC2John
F0nze
Profile Joined March 2015
United States26 Posts
May 22 2015 08:10 GMT
#7010
protoss scum.
<3
[Every hour, a coward is devoured.] Diamond level Protoss; NA server.
Icekin
Profile Joined December 2014
88 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-05-22 08:23:48
May 22 2015 08:19 GMT
#7011
Well I never play blink strategy because it's very common in PvP, so i prefer play anti-meta and build directly robo and immortals to counter them easly, instead of a blink v blink war. In my experience that requires luck more than skill imho depending on who move first, who shoot first, where army met etc. Usually i counter blink, go colossus, win for tech advantage (the few times i won). Other times, I manage to counter their blink play, have better macro, but poor units, and he kills me in late game despite i was ahead in early mid game.
Guess in PvP units>macro right?

Blink vs Phoenix is much like blink vs mutalisk. Enemy can just turn around my base letting me waste lots of apm and attentions to follow his phoenixs.
The only advantage in this is I can runby with zealots since an heavy phoenix army early means no units at home.
Are my thoughts correct?

By the way, I'm gonna try everything to raise my pvp. When I should place TC? After 2nd gate, 3 stalker and msc are out? Or shall I skip then 2nd gate to make 1 gate TC with msc+stalker?
shizznit
Profile Joined May 2015
23 Posts
May 22 2015 11:26 GMT
#7012
On May 22 2015 17:19 Icekin wrote:
Well I never play blink strategy because it's very common in PvP, so i prefer play anti-meta and build directly robo and immortals to counter them easly, instead of a blink v blink war. In my experience that requires luck more than skill imho depending on who move first, who shoot first, where army met etc. Usually i counter blink, go colossus, win for tech advantage (the few times i won). Other times, I manage to counter their blink play, have better macro, but poor units, and he kills me in late game despite i was ahead in early mid game.
Guess in PvP units>macro right?

Blink vs Phoenix is much like blink vs mutalisk. Enemy can just turn around my base letting me waste lots of apm and attentions to follow his phoenixs.
The only advantage in this is I can runby with zealots since an heavy phoenix army early means no units at home.
Are my thoughts correct?

By the way, I'm gonna try everything to raise my pvp. When I should place TC? After 2nd gate, 3 stalker and msc are out? Or shall I skip then 2nd gate to make 1 gate TC with msc+stalker?


your anti meta style of going robo is gonna hurt you a lot. You have no mobility and a late blink vs imo what is going to be basically half your oppoenents going stargate ( least taht's what it seems like for me ).
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
May 22 2015 12:27 GMT
#7013
Plus, lots of one base robo builds are mediocre against everything including some blink builds. The only thing it's good against is one base 4gate blink allin, and even then you can hold with other styles.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
Xinzoe
Profile Joined January 2014
Korea (South)2373 Posts
May 22 2015 12:50 GMT
#7014
On May 22 2015 17:19 Icekin wrote:
Well I never play blink strategy because it's very common in PvP, so i prefer play anti-meta and build directly robo and immortals to counter them easly, instead of a blink v blink war. In my experience that requires luck more than skill imho depending on who move first, who shoot first, where army met etc. Usually i counter blink, go colossus, win for tech advantage (the few times i won). Other times, I manage to counter their blink play, have better macro, but poor units, and he kills me in late game despite i was ahead in early mid game.
Guess in PvP units>macro right?

Blink vs Phoenix is much like blink vs mutalisk. Enemy can just turn around my base letting me waste lots of apm and attentions to follow his phoenixs.
The only advantage in this is I can runby with zealots since an heavy phoenix army early means no units at home.
Are my thoughts correct?

By the way, I'm gonna try everything to raise my pvp. When I should place TC? After 2nd gate, 3 stalker and msc are out? Or shall I skip then 2nd gate to make 1 gate TC with msc+stalker?


smart players that realize they can't break u will just contain u and expand unless its vaani research or something. there is no way you can punish this with 0 mobility. in addition, holding blink allins sort of depends on your opponents micro as well which is why almost EVERY high level protoss will go blink. it gives you more room to outplay your opponent rather than just doing coinflip blind counters everygame
[PkF] Wire
Profile Joined March 2013
France24228 Posts
May 22 2015 23:03 GMT
#7015
Up until the highest level of competition the 2 gates safe expand build should still be a fairly good way to never end up too far behind. You add the robo before expanding if you sense DTs. Against phoenix, yes you should go blink and up to ~8 stalkers. Then you can transition into colossi and forge, fairly standard.
HelpMeGetBetter
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
United States764 Posts
May 23 2015 16:37 GMT
#7016
I think this topic is quite hilarious: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/36ya4y/macro_nexus_pvp_amazing_new_build_viable_against/

I doubt a macro Nexus is viable. The only use I could possibly see is more chrono boost.
Olli
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Austria24422 Posts
May 23 2015 16:41 GMT
#7017
Hongun is back!
Administrator"Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."
KingAlphard
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
Italy1705 Posts
May 23 2015 16:53 GMT
#7018
I opened the replay against the gm and closed at the 5th minute because it was pretty clear that he wasn't a real gm.
In fact, being rank 192 gm on NA means that you're closer to diamond than anything else.
shizznit
Profile Joined May 2015
23 Posts
May 24 2015 01:20 GMT
#7019
wow is that for real? a gm is closer to diamond then high masters?
Pursuit_
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States1330 Posts
May 24 2015 01:36 GMT
#7020
On May 24 2015 10:20 shizznit wrote:
wow is that for real? a gm is closer to diamond then high masters?


It happens on occassion that someone gets their account boosted or goes on a lucky winstreak the night GM opens and can make it to GM without actually being top 200 in terms of skill. It's pretty common on NA to have 3-4 GMs with Diamond MMR for whatever reason.
In Somnis Veritas
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