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Quick question for PvZ
I mostly go Airtoss and I have had a lot of sucess with it ~65% winrate overall and probably around 90% winrate if I'm able to defend the 9-12 mins hydra pushes. I usually defend this with storm (maybe two HTs + VRs + zealots)...
My question is for mid-late game (14mins and forward)...
What is the best response vs MASS MUTA? Let's say that Z goes mass muta simply to base trade and they are not interested in ever engaging... (I don't know why so many Z do this - base trading is a valid strat nowadays?)
Assuming I scout it early and have 3-4 SGs up.... I know that possibly the best response is to make phoenixes... but is this the only option if I don't want to base trade? How else can I defend my bases? Or force an engagement? With the muta regen... storms don't seem to help defend bases that good...
I find that when I make phoenixes... I'm just chasing the mutas but the mutas have corruptor support and phoenixes can't engage the corruptor and by the time I bring the VRs to help, it's too late cus the Z is on the run again. It's a game of cat and mouse...
Assuming I have time and 4-5 bases econ... is it viable to switch from tempest/VR to carriers? Are carriers (6+ carriers) any good vs mutas?
How can I forcee the game to go differently? I'm not a fan of base trading...
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Ok seriously, is anyone else having issues with Terran? Just me?
83% and 78% in PvZ and PvP respectively. 29% vs Terran.
Watched some CJ Hero vods and he definitely has incredible battle micro.
I think the maps are giving me the hardest time. Before this map pool I was okay in PvT. Wasn't my best but it was never this bad.
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On May 28 2015 23:22 PiPiGranDe wrote:
Quick question for PvZ
I mostly go Airtoss and I have had a lot of sucess with it ~65% winrate overall and probably around 90% winrate if I'm about to get mass the 9-12 mins hydra pushes.
My question is for mid-late game (14mins and forward)...
What is the best response vs MASS MUTA? Let's say that Z goes mass muta simply to base trade and they are not interested in ever engaging... (I don't know why so many Z do this - base trading is a valid strat nowadays?)
Assuming I scout it early and have 3-4 SGs up.... I know that possibly the best response is to make phoenixes... but is this the only option if I don't want to base trade? How else can I defend my bases? Or force an engagement? With the muta regen... storms don't seem to help defend bases that good...
I find that when I make phoenixes... I'm just chasing the mutas but the mutas have corruptor support and phoenixes can't engage the corruptor and by the time I bring the VRs to help, it's too late cus the Z is on the run again. It's a game of cat and mouse...
Assuming I have time and 4-5 bases econ... is it viable to switch from tempest/VR to carriers? Are carriers (6+ carriers) any good vs mutas?
How can I forcee the game to go differently? I'm not a fan of base trading...
If you have a good Skytoss army, Muta flock will never be able to engage you and live. So what you do is just let him add muta and just build a bagillion cannons everywhere. THen you go kill him. If he commits to a base race you just pick 1-2 bases and absolutely flood it with cannons.
That's how I do it at least. Phoenixes are also really good against Muta so you can take some aside to fight the muta while you go kill him with 80-90% of your army,.
You can also leave a couple of archons at home with your cannons to help. They do wonders against muta.
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Hello people, first post here, and sorry for my bad english,i'm french :d Wouallez OGTV !.
I'm here to talk about a "trash build" that works very well at my level (high Platinum) it is "One base Stargate into Robo all-in" :D yes yes
I wanted to take your advice about this build and pottentially increase him,since it is almost my creation,he is'nt optimized at all but work pretty well,(that's why no new topic) i've got 65% Win rate with him, and most of the lose is due to Photon Rush /proxy / gate 10 11 12 rush or late game lose (where the build doesn't matter anymore). It may be less effective in Master level,altough i already beat some Diamond and one Master (i proud toss now) with it.
13 gate
14 Assimilator
16 pylon
18 Cyber
18 Assimilator
23 Stargate
25 A safe Zealot Cancel is possible,although not so usefull
24 pylon
24 Stalker
26 Oracles/phenix (chrono)
28 Robo
30 Stalker Cancel then phenix
then Pylon then 2nd gateway
Probably error as said,and the follow-up is'nt setup correctly for me. i stop probe when the base is satured
I've looked for looking-alike build but i did'nt found anything,beyond the safe stargate build opener. The goal is simple,since most of Protoss think about PvP like Rock/Paper/scissors situation, i open classic stargate one oracle (phenix if i scout/feel Stargate on the other side,or cause it's strong) then phenix,most of time i skip Mothership core AND warpgate, for doing a safe stalker after the first oracle,and then i build 1 robo then 1 gate. Phenix/oracles should scout and see the tech he is going to,and prevent him from doing any agression/scouting. Most of time ppl go heavy stalker,sometime Robo (cause Diamond/platinum i think) or stargate (worst case) and then the brain begin.
Mass Stalker=> I just do few more stalker/zealot,gate might be unused sometime and also u might be forced to cut Warpgate a long time (but since most of your unit come from Robo and Stargate..) and chronoboost Immortal and put in some void rays if i don't commited too much on Phenix. After triggered some Photon Overcharge,i can push With 1/ 2 of Zealot/stalkers/immortal/void rays.The variety is big here, doing great damage against stalker and once they are down,void rays finish the game,still have a few gate unit for tanking eventual Zealot (but since he think you go stargate there should'nt be many) you can also build observer relatively early and relatively late Mcore to deal with eventual DT
Robo=> I keep Phenix Production, put in 1 or 2 immortal as well, you scout harass then hit with some energy in your Phenix,lift his immortal,kill his stalker while, also putting more zealot in your compo might be better.
Stargate=> The early stalker should prevent his oracle to totally kill you,and the greed stargate build should allow you to be even and defend or do damage as well. In this case i go 2nd Stargate most of time while expanding depending on the match.
I found this very strong on ladder, ppl don't expect the robo and immortal that come with them,and opening Stargate allow for a GREAT scout advantage.Your gate doesn't work everytime,but the composition advantage you should get is much better at my level at least.Also with so much tech buildings, the guy might think you want to expand while you hit soon as you scout an advantage/snipe the Mcore or at least for Overcharge.
The Con is Rush stalker, this thing unscouted hit just when you first Stargate unit come out and with no M Core and 1 gate, you have to really out-micro him to survive.
I know this is tricky,but so is the PvP match up and i think with proper Reaction/build, an Stargate into Robo 1base all-in could perform at least decently even in master (altough i'm maybe completely wrong)
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On May 28 2015 23:45 Kenny_mk wrote:
Hello people, first post here, and sorry for my bad english,i'm french :d Wouallez OGTV !.
I'm here to talk about a "trash build" that works very well at my level (high Platinum) it is "One base Stargate into Robo all-in" :D yes yes
I wanted to take your advice about this build and pottentially increase him,since it is almost my creation,he is'nt optimized at all but work pretty well,(that's why no new topic) i've got 65% Win rate with him, and most of the lose is due to Photon Rush /proxy / gate 10 11 12 rush or late game lose (where the build doesn't matter anymore). It may be less effective in Master level,altough i already beat some Diamond and one Master (i proud toss now) with it.
13 gate
14 Assimilator
16 pylon
18 Cyber
18 Assimilator
23 Stargate
25 A safe Zealot Cancel is possible,although not so usefull
24 pylon
24 Stalker
26 Oracles/phenix (chrono)
28 Robo
30 Stalker Cancel then phenix
then Pylon then 2nd gateway
Probably error as said,and the follow-up is'nt setup correctly for me. i stop probe when the base is satured
I've looked for looking-alike build but i did'nt found anything,beyond the safe stargate build opener. The goal is simple,since most of Protoss think about PvP like Rock/Paper/scissors situation, i open classic stargate one oracle (phenix if i scout/feel Stargate on the other side,or cause it's strong) then phenix,most of time i skip Mothership core AND warpgate, for doing a safe stalker after the first oracle,and then i build 1 robo then 1 gate. Phenix/oracles should scout and see the tech he is going to,and prevent him from doing any agression/scouting. Most of time ppl go heavy stalker,sometime Robo (cause Diamond/platinum i think) or stargate (worst case) and then the brain begin.
Mass Stalker=> I just do few more stalker/zealot,gate might be unused sometime and also u might be forced to cut Warpgate a long time (but since most of your unit come from Robo and Stargate..) and chronoboost Immortal and put in some void rays if i don't commited too much on Phenix. After triggered some Photon Overcharge,i can push With 1/ 2 of Zealot/stalkers/immortal/void rays.The variety is big here, doing great damage against stalker and once they are down,void rays finish the game,still have a few gate unit for tanking eventual Zealot (but since he think you go stargate there should'nt be many) you can also build observer relatively early and relatively late Mcore to deal with eventual DT
Robo=> I keep Phenix Production, put in 1 or 2 immortal as well, you scout harass then hit with some energy in your Phenix,lift his immortal,kill his stalker while, also putting more zealot in your compo might be better.
Stargate=> The early stalker should prevent his oracle to totally kill you,and the greed stargate build should allow you to be even and defend or do damage as well. In this case i go 2nd Stargate most of time while expanding depending on the match.
I found this very strong on ladder, ppl don't expect the robo and immortal that come with them,and opening Stargate allow for a GREAT scout advantage.Your gate doesn't work everytime,but the composition advantage you should get is much better at my level at least.Also with so much tech buildings, the guy might think you want to expand while you hit soon as you scout an advantage/snipe the Mcore or at least for Overcharge.
The Con is Rush stalker, this thing unscouted hit just when you first Stargate unit come out and with no M Core and 1 gate, you have to really out-micro him to survive.
I know this is tricky,but so is the PvP match up and i think with proper Reaction/build, an Stargate into Robo 1base all-in could perform at least decently even in master (altough i'm maybe completely wrong)
What do you do if they go Phoenixes? I feel like you are totally dead since Phoenixes kill your Oracle and counter your Robo tech.
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I still scout with 11 12 13 probe,if i see an early gas no 2nd pylon or stargate then i go phoenix (no oracles) as well and 2nd stargate instead of robo,most of time it force the macro game,and you should still be in a classic stargate build the time you see it (mb cancel robo) if he early Stargate as well,he can't deny your scout early, and then you should be even,mb some less probe. Even if he was'nt going Stargate,Phoenix instead of one oracles is still a good option.
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First off, you can't skip stalker/mothership core like that. You're gonna die immediately to a 3 stalker rush, and lose a few probes + allow full scouting information to any kind of poke (a single stalker or a mothership core, usually). The latter isn't even something you can scout.
Honestly I don't get where you are spending your money when your core finishes if you skip msc and stalker, since you should have about 200/250 when core finishes, or something like that, with your build order.
[EDIT: Oh, now I get it. You go 2nd gas after the cybercore. That's really bad for a stargate opening because you don't have enough gas to do anything. You should go double gas at 15 and saturate them immediately. That delays your cybercore though, so you should go 17 core if you want to start 13 gate.]
If you wanna skip all of that, I'd suggest you to go 11-12 gate - core before the 2nd pylon, which allows you to have a ~20 seconds earlier stargate compared to your BO. That's how modern in-base stargate openings are done, in general. It will also be much better against a 3 gate rush, if you decide to scout.
However you can't skip the warpgate. You say your units are coming out of robo or stargate, but warpgate units get warped in immediately, and from a pylon that's very close to your base, so he'll always have more units than you.
So I'd suggest to get at least a mothership core, stalker and warpgate after the stargate, but before the oracle, ideally. You need to mine as much gas as possible to do this, but don't cut probes after your gateway. Otherwise, you can skip either the stalker or warpgate until after your first oracle.
Besides, going robo right after oracle is something we've seen at pro level.
Stargate=> The early stalker should prevent his oracle to totally kill you,and the greed stargate build should allow you to be even and defend or do damage as well. In this case i go 2nd Stargate most of time while expanding depending on the match.
1 stalker to counter 1 oracle doesn't make any difference. He'll run out of energy before you can kill it, i.e. you lose around 15 probes if both micro properly.
I still scout with 11 12 13 probe
Scouting that early in PvP is just a waste of money. You get all the information you need by scouting at 18 (on 2 player maps), because you'll get inside his base right before the first ranged unit comes out (stalker/mothership core), and you still have time to adjust your build. On 4 player maps, you can scout at 13.
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On May 28 2015 23:23 DinoMight wrote:
Ok seriously, is anyone else having issues with Terran? Just me?
83% and 78% in PvZ and PvP respectively. 29% vs Terran.
Watched some CJ Hero vods and he definitely has incredible battle micro.
I think the maps are giving me the hardest time. Before this map pool I was okay in PvT. Wasn't my best but it was never this bad.
Until just recently, PvT has been my best matchup at 55-60%. I've held that since I switched to Protoss shortly after the PatchZerg era of WoL. Over the last two seasons it slipped to second best at 52-54%. I have been a stable low-Diamond player going on ~6 seasons.
The recent map pool does place greater importance on scouting for proxy mine play or the early 2-3 mine drop. The large surface area of the main and sometimes natural make drop defense harder than in the past.
The meta has also been constantly cycling and goto builds do not stay successful. In WoL, 2-3 Colossus into Storm was quite successful for me. Terran tends to overbuild Vikings and get caught out against Templar. I later switched to quick Storm builds, thanks to PartinG, which were more enjoyable for me to play. HotS initially had a huge surge in mine play that buried the Storm-first builds and necessitated quick Colossus. We then entered the SCV pull era. We have cycled back around where quick Templar builds are possible even in the face of mine play.
Since Protoss primarily dictates the tech, it is on us to look for what is happening and go the other way. If they scout our tech path and react appropriately, they win. If they we scout their direction and react appropriately, we win. At the moment, nearly everything Terran does can be countered evenly and vice versa.
Without replays, it is hard to say where you are falling short. If you don't see what is coming, try a 3 Observer build. If you are losing to mine drops, try defensive blink into Colossus or 3-Gate pressure. If it is defending a 3rd, try a Colossus double-Forge build. Sometimes you can also get lucky with a double-Oracle build or Prism play, but they are more unreliable.
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Thx for your answer, will try this out soon.
[EDIT: Oh, now I get it. You go 2nd gas after the cybercore. That's really bad for a stargate opening because you don't have enough gas to do anything. You should go double gas at 15 and saturate them immediately. That delays your cybercore though, so you should go 17 core if you want to start 13 gate.]
Yes, i was struggling for gas and so skipping Mcore and Warpgate for that mistake.
However you can't skip the warpgate. You say your units are coming out of robo or stargate, but warpgate units get warped in immediately, and from a pylon that's very close to your base, so he'll always have more units than you.
Well actually your units should consist mostly of Stargate AND robo unit (except in the case of Stargate where you should be even)
Ideally you come with a greater army value if you did some damage with phoenix/oracles,or almost equal, but he should have only one tech ,so he should have pbly one sentry 10 12 stalkers,a few zealot,while you came in with 2 immortals 1 or 2 void rays,2-3 phoenix 2-3 stalker 2 zealot, you try to focus the stalkers or at least prevent them to doing damage to your void rays/phoenix, while immo are doing great,if there is Immortal even more easy you lift those focus Stalker with immortal and then phoenix/void rays clean zealot and immortal left.
I know this seems bad: you can't get Void Rays Phoenix Oracles Immortals Stalkers zealot, but i feel the stargate really allow you to adjust comp to crush him,since with constant harass (that's why mb i should go everytime phoenix) you see his army and just build whatever is the best,depending also on map,but with most unit coming out of Robo and Stargate.
(not sure if this was clear)
So I'd suggest to get at least a mothership core, stalker and warpgate after the stargate, but before the oracle, ideally. You need to mine as much gas as possible to do this, but don't cut probes after your gateway. Otherwise, you can skip either the stalker or warpgate until after your first oracle.
I have to try with the 15 gas ,but having a fast oracle/phoenix seems important to me, since it force the opponents to keep force at home early on, avoiding poke/agression that you can't manage by the time you get your first immortal,get you a serious scout advantage,more because you deny his scout until his observers is out,which should be too late for him to adjust correctly his composition,while you adjust yours Stargate/Robo comp from the beginning with haras to really crush him (This is supposed to be all-in)
1 stalker to counter 1 oracle doesn't make any difference. He'll run out of energy before you can kill it, i.e. you lose around 15 probes if both micro properly.
Yeah i know, but since you go Stargate too you can go phoenix if you scout or also do great damage since he should'nt have 2 stalkers or the energy to do Overcharge.
Anyways i watch LilBow winning WCS then i try 15 gas and see where this lead,cause still with those error this tricky build is going to get me in diamond if i can fix my PvT,so i want to work this,cause i think optimised it can work really well on ladder, at least until master since i got most of diamonds P i meet. (Only lose lately was to a damn Photon rush)
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On May 29 2015 01:02 justnny wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2015 23:23 DinoMight wrote:
Ok seriously, is anyone else having issues with Terran? Just me?
83% and 78% in PvZ and PvP respectively. 29% vs Terran.
Watched some CJ Hero vods and he definitely has incredible battle micro.
I think the maps are giving me the hardest time. Before this map pool I was okay in PvT. Wasn't my best but it was never this bad. Until just recently, PvT has been my best matchup at 55-60%. I've held that since I switched to Protoss shortly after the PatchZerg era of WoL. Over the last two seasons it slipped to second best at 52-54%. I have been a stable low-Diamond player going on ~6 seasons. The recent map pool does place greater importance on scouting for proxy mine play or the early 2-3 mine drop. The large surface area of the main and sometimes natural make drop defense harder than in the past. The meta has also been constantly cycling and goto builds do not stay successful. In WoL, 2-3 Colossus into Storm was quite successful for me. Terran tends to overbuild Vikings and get caught out against Templar. I later switched to quick Storm builds, thanks to PartinG, which were more enjoyable for me to play. HotS initially had a huge surge in mine play that buried the Storm-first builds and necessitated quick Colossus. We then entered the SCV pull era. We have cycled back around where quick Templar builds are possible even in the face of mine play. Since Protoss primarily dictates the tech, it is on us to look for what is happening and go the other way. If they scout our tech path and react appropriately, they win. If they we scout their direction and react appropriately, we win. At the moment, nearly everything Terran does can be countered evenly and vice versa. Without replays, it is hard to say where you are falling short. If you don't see what is coming, try a 3 Observer build. If you are losing to mine drops, try defensive blink into Colossus or 3-Gate pressure. If it is defending a 3rd, try a Colossus double-Forge build. Sometimes you can also get lucky with a double-Oracle build or Prism play, but they are more unreliable.
The problem is that on these maps, the Terran player can go Yolo with the harass and still be very greedy behind it because any slip up at home on defense is potentially game ending. So even when I defend perfectly with observers in all the right places etc... I still just get steamrolled by his main army becuse it's twice as large as mine.
Look at Vaani for example... to take your third you basically need to be able to take a fight in completely open ground AND also have stuff in place to defend potential drops at your natural which is on the other side of the map.
SO I end up pinned on 2 bases for so long that I lose economic ground even if they waste resources on inefficient harass.
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Well actually your units should consist mostly of Stargate AND robo unit (except in the case of Stargate where you should be even)
Ideally you come with a greater army value if you did some damage with phoenix/oracles,or almost equal, but he should have only one tech ,so he should have pbly one sentry 10 12 stalkers,a few zealot,while you came in with 2 immortals 1 or 2 void rays,2-3 phoenix 2-3 stalker 2 zealot, you try to focus the stalkers or at least prevent them to doing damage to your void rays/phoenix, while immo are doing great,if there is Immortal even more easy you lift those focus Stalker with immortal and then phoenix/void rays clean zealot and immortal left.
I know this seems bad: you can't get Void Rays Phoenix Oracles Immortals Stalkers zealot, but i feel the stargate really allow you to adjust comp to crush him,since with constant harass (that's why mb i should go everytime phoenix) you see his army and just build whatever is the best,depending also on map,but with most unit coming out of Robo and Stargate.
(not sure if this was clear)
So are you saying that you want to push with this composition against blink stalkers? (I assume by "mass stalkers" you mean blink stalkers). That seems a really bold choice. Your army can get kited through all the map, or more simply your opponent can go basetrade immediately, which is something you can't deal with having such a slow army.
If you don't push, then still, I feel like you need warpgate because your immortals and void rays take 1 minute to build , during that time, those resources are "wasted", whereas with warpgate, you get what you paid for immediately.
That and since your opponent has only 1 tech, he should have an overwhelming amount of units. So I think that the best way to deal with blink stalkers is to play passive, skip additional stargate units (no void rays), get 3 warpgates+ immortals, then prevent your opponent from containing you inside your main.
But I know that at lower levels people aren't very good with blink stalkers so if attacking with immortals and void rays works for you, no reason not to do that.
I have to try with the 15 gas ,but having a fast oracle/phoenix seems important to me, since it force the opponents to keep force at home early on, avoiding poke/agression that you can't manage by the time you get your first immortal,get you a serious scout advantage,more because you deny his scout until his observers is out,which should be too late for him to adjust correctly his composition,while you adjust yours Stargate/Robo comp from the beginning with haras to really crush him (This is supposed to be all-in)
That doesn't delay your oracle though, as long as you go 17 core instead of 18 (you need to briefly cut probe production), you get your stargate up at the exact same time. You might have less mineral income, but gas is more important for your opening.
If you follow my advice and go 11/12 gate with cybercore before the 2nd pylon, you can trade a bit more of mineral income for gas, and get an even earlier stargate.
So I didn't really understand that this was an all in before now. I don't think that robo all ins should work. Robo units (just like void rays) take long to produce and to cross the map, reason why all tech 1 base all ins are done with blink or (rarely) stargate.
Also, not having blink, your ground army can be completely denied by forcefields.
Oracle into robo sounds fine to me, but to expand and macro up, not to attack.
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On May 29 2015 02:08 DinoMight wrote:
The problem is that on these maps, the Terran player can go Yolo with the harass and still be very greedy behind it because any slip up at home on defense is potentially game ending. So even when I defend perfectly with observers in all the right places etc... I still just get steamrolled by his main army becuse it's twice as large as mine.
Look at Vaani for example... to take your third you basically need to be able to take a fight in completely open ground AND also have stuff in place to defend potential drops at your natural which is on the other side of the map.
SO I end up pinned on 2 bases for so long that I lose economic ground even if they waste resources on inefficient harass.
I do not disagree that Vaani is tough for PvT, but I don't think it is as grim as you describe.
Some tips for Vaani:
* Terrans LOVE to proxy a Factory and/or put mines between the main and natural. Scout along the perimeter of your base, from outside your main to the gold outside your natural. Then try to add vision in your base by placing a pylon towards the outside of your main, near the ramp to your natural, and towards the outside of your natural, near the gold.
* When you scout, check if he took a gas and where his gas is going. You are looking for a bio timing or a Widow Mine drop.
* It is possible to scout and harass using your MsC, given the short air distance, but don't lose it or be in his base during his ~8min poke.
* A simple poke up with ramp with a Stalker usually will show you the Marine count, how active the Barracks is, and sometimes tech.
* If you go Zealot, Chrono Stalker, Chrono Stalker and poke at his ramp, you can take your natural and you may find that he doesn't mine drop you until after you have a Robo or Forge or both.
* If you go fast Oracle, you will keep him in his base.
* If you go slow Oracle, you need to know if you need that Oracle or a second one for drop defense.
* If you go Robo and know you can defend, Prism harass will keep him in his base.
* If you want to take a 3rd, take an engagement either between your 3rd and the line of sight blocker or beside your 3rd and ramp to the main. Never out in front.
* If you do not take a quick 3rd, tech and defend while keeping an eye out for his 3rd.
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If someone can answer my post, that would be great...
i'm looking at you teoita, hushang and kingalphard.... and anyone else.
thanks!!
note: i'm currently #15 for masters america in nios website. So, most matches are vs GM or high masters.
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There is nothing complicated about mutas if you're going skytoss, really. I'm trying to see a problem but I can't find it.
You have great upgrades, direct access to phoenix range, tons of stargates. Even if he gets corruptors, well upgraded phoenixes can still kite and kill them pretty effectively.
You should also have enough hts/archons, so with the rest of your army you can just attack without being afraid of being engaged by the mutas. Carriers are useless as always in PvZ.
Leaving lots of cannons and a few hts in the most exposed bases can also help if you have the money for it. But overall, 15~20 well upgraded phoenixes can deal with any amount of muta/corruptor.
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United States7483 Posts
On May 28 2015 23:22 PiPiGranDe wrote:
Quick question for PvZ
I mostly go Airtoss and I have had a lot of sucess with it ~65% winrate overall and probably around 90% winrate if I'm able to defend the 9-12 mins hydra pushes. I usually defend this with storm (maybe two HTs + VRs + zealots)...
My question is for mid-late game (14mins and forward)...
What is the best response vs MASS MUTA? Let's say that Z goes mass muta simply to base trade and they are not interested in ever engaging... (I don't know why so many Z do this - base trading is a valid strat nowadays?)
Assuming I scout it early and have 3-4 SGs up.... I know that possibly the best response is to make phoenixes... but is this the only option if I don't want to base trade? How else can I defend my bases? Or force an engagement? With the muta regen... storms don't seem to help defend bases that good...
I find that when I make phoenixes... I'm just chasing the mutas but the mutas have corruptor support and phoenixes can't engage the corruptor and by the time I bring the VRs to help, it's too late cus the Z is on the run again. It's a game of cat and mouse...
Assuming I have time and 4-5 bases econ... is it viable to switch from tempest/VR to carriers? Are carriers (6+ carriers) any good vs mutas?
How can I forcee the game to go differently? I'm not a fan of base trading...
Yes, phoenix are the only option you have other than a base trade. You cannot hold vs mutas over an extended period of time without them. Your options are to attack immediately, since mutas are weak in a straight up engagement against your entire army, or use your ground army to delay while you get phoenix out. You need to get phoenix range and micro them: if the zerg doesn't get a good fungal and you have archons, you should be able to deal with muta/corrupter fairly easily. Storm helps a lot, but you must have a good phoenix count.
Once you've got around 10 phoenix, you should be able to transition. If he keeps making mutas make more phoenix, but you should never need more than 20 ever. Be careful to not get fungaled. Carriers in HOTS are not good against mutas, especially with corrupter support. The muta bounce kills the interceptors very quickly, and a dedicated muta build gets air upgrades. Storm/phoenix/archon/tempest should do fine, void rays can help if you're careful.
And most importantly, use warp prisms and zealot runbys constantly vs someone going mutas. You want to keep the mutas on their side of the map or punish them for trying to attack with them, and your defense is throttled by gas, not minerals, so you might as well burn them attacking.
But base trade is usually the best option against people trying to go heavy muta/corrupter.
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On May 29 2015 08:38 PiPiGranDe wrote:
If someone can answer my post, that would be great...
i'm looking at you teoita, hushang and kingalphard.... and anyone else.
thanks!!
note: i'm currently #15 for masters america in nios website. So, most matches are vs GM or high masters.
I'm not answering your question because I don't play this style at all :3. When I play pvz I always open stalker sentry so if I see muta I just attack and win or drop 2 stargates until I feel comfortable to attack and win x'D.
Edit: After re-reading I bet your problem is that you are not forcing zerg to make units and then the muta switch comes as a big suprise. What whitewing said is all pretty good info if you end up going late game. However, that being said you shouldn't let the zerg ever just sit around not building units. If you do that and the zerg goes muta then you should have way more than enough stargates to pump out phoenix range/upgrades (which you probably already have) and then just constantly chase around the muta/corruptors. If you pressured the zerg properly with your style you will be way ahead in phoenix so you wont have a problem kiting the muta ball. If the zerg goes straight to corruptor then you're probably better tech switching to stalker archon. Go check out all the finals vs soo to see how to do it properly.
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a quick P question...DID YOU WATCHED GSL NOW???? How to win like a Parting?? Omg, so sick micro vs rouge on OverGrowth
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Basically what PartinG showed is that roaches are trash against large numbers of stalkers. I always lose to roach burrow floods when I try to rush to 66 probes, but Parting showed that you can pretty much stay on 2 bases for 14 minutes and push at 150 supply. That's kinda what Myungsik did against Life, too.
But idk, I think that if I tried to do the same my opponent would get hydras out eventually and then I would lose. At least, I feel like if Rogue had 15 hydras in his maxed out army he would have won easily, but maybe he felt too pressured to build them. In the end it was a mistake. You never wanna max out on roaches.
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On May 29 2015 20:27 TedBurtle wrote:
a quick P question...DID YOU WATCHED GSL NOW???? How to win like a Parting?? Omg, so sick micro vs rouge on OverGrowth
Step 1 - Be God.
Step 2 - Make sentries.
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On May 29 2015 20:27 TedBurtle wrote:
a quick P question...DID YOU WATCHED GSL NOW???? How to win like a Parting?? Omg, so sick micro vs rouge on OverGrowth
PartinG wins because of his micro. Don't ever try to copy Parting. The same build won't work for you because your micro is not as good as his.
He is basically God.
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EPT
