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On May 29 2015 21:02 KingAlphard wrote:
Basically what PartinG showed is that roaches are trash against large numbers of stalkers. I always lose to roach burrow floods when I try to rush to 66 probes, but Parting showed that you can pretty much stay on 2 bases for 14 minutes and push at 150 supply. That's kinda what Myungsik did against Life, too.
But idk, I think that if I tried to do the same my opponent would get hydras out eventually and then I would lose. At least, I feel like if Rogue had 15 hydras in his maxed out army he would have won easily, but maybe he felt too pressured to build them. In the end it was a mistake. You never wanna max out on roaches.
Anything that Parting does is of no relevance to strategy or viability of builds/units for any other players.
Parting is just Parting.
Parting ass kissing aside, his micro really does allow him to do things that nobody else can. It shouldn't be possible to attack a maxed zerg with 120 Protoss supply and win, EVER..... but he made it look easy.
He basically traded 20 Protoss Supply for 100+ Zerg supply. That's 10 Stalkers/Sentries for OVER FIFTY ROACHES.
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Parting may be able to get out of really tough situations because of his micro sometimes. Sure. But saying you can't attempt to do his builds (soul train? blink first or gateway all in in PvT? all became pretty common stuff lol) or decide that you want to play like him for stylistic reasons is a loser's mentality.
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On May 30 2015 03:10 vhapter wrote:
Parting may be able to get out of really tough situations because of his micro sometimes. Sure. But saying you can't attempt to do his builds (soul train? blink first or gateway all in in PvT? all became pretty common stuff lol) or decide that you want to play like him for stylistic reasons is a loser's mentality.
No it's not. "Doing a soul train" is not the same as "Doing Parting's Soul Train." Even if you do the same exact build he can move out earlier and with less sentries than you because he is more efficient than you with his FF placement. He hits earlier and with more force.
He still wins with a build that has been, for the most part, figured out for years. Why do you think that is?
Sure at a low level you can do "a Blink all-in" or "a soul train" but if you copy his exact timings and move out at the same time you will lose.
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Also, what PartinG did in that Ro16 match vs Rogue was by no means "a build." He tried to take a 3rd, was denied, fell behind, and ended up going for a desperation all-in.. that only succeeded because he microed like a supernatural being. Casters expected him to lose, and he even admits that he wasn't able to expand when he wanted.
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lol I don't know what you're talking about. Protoss all ins heavily rely on hitting benchmarks and attacking at specific timings. The soul train wasn't an exception. You can only blame yourself if you fail to hit the proper bencharmks. The rest is just execution.
Not everyone here has bad mechanics or is stuck in gold or something. But if you hit too late and you can't force field properly, then a build like the soul train is unlikely to work for obvious reasons. That's not a reason not to do the build though, otherwise nobody would ever play starcraft since skill is something you can only develop through practice.
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Hi..
I´am Diamond Protos player. I´am haveing really hard time against terrans lately. So i´am thinking about going for pheonix/colussus build jimi build.. I found the build on imbabuilds but i think that it out dated. So does anyone know were I can find games or replay were he does this so I can have the bo....
Wanna try this style because i´am getting rekt by widow mine drops ( I always open robo but it does not help most of the time)
Ty
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I'm almost sure this build has been posted on the subreddit /allthingsprotoss. They have several builds there, take a look at "build of the week".
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On May 30 2015 09:21 Raguel wrote:
Hi..
I´am Diamond Protos player. I´am haveing really hard time against terrans lately. So i´am thinking about going for pheonix/colussus build jimi build.. I found the build on imbabuilds but i think that it out dated. So does anyone know were I can find games or replay were he does this so I can have the bo....
Wanna try this style because i´am getting rekt by widow mine drops ( I always open robo but it does not help most of the time)
Ty
My personal experience has been that Phoenix/Colossus is susceptible to a lot of early timings. I haven't fully invested into it and have had mixed results with it. I want to say Classic is another player that favored it over the last few seasons.
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On May 30 2015 21:49 justnny wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2015 09:21 Raguel wrote:
Hi..
I´am Diamond Protos player. I´am haveing really hard time against terrans lately. So i´am thinking about going for pheonix/colussus build jimi build.. I found the build on imbabuilds but i think that it out dated. So does anyone know were I can find games or replay were he does this so I can have the bo....
Wanna try this style because i´am getting rekt by widow mine drops ( I always open robo but it does not help most of the time)
Ty My personal experience has been that Phoenix/Colossus is susceptible to a lot of early timings. I haven't fully invested into it and have had mixed results with it. I want to say Classic is another player that favored it over the last few seasons.
Yeah I found game were gemini does this build and he makes pheonix really late. So i´am just going to stick blink into robo play so I can punish widow mine drops more..
Ty for the help
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How's it going guys. I'm a return protoss, used to be Masters but havn't played for a very long time and I seem to be out of the metagame in PvZ most out of the three matchups.... What are people generally doing as a "go-to", macro oriented build against Zerg? Is forge FE really dead these days? I watched some GSL and saw a lot of gate straight into Nexus, and I'm wondering if that's really a safe build that people do often.
After openers, getting my third up is still as difficult as always.... what upgrades/# gates/tech is usually recommended for pushing towards securing a third base?
Any help would be appreciated ^^. If you want to just reply with VODs or something instead of explaining that would be fantastic as well, I can figure things out from there! Cheers
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13 Gate (+ gateway scout) 17 Nexus is super safe macro opener on 2 player maps. It took me a while to figure out the best way to adapt to different openers with it, but it's a really solid opener if you know what you're doing. If you want to play a blink stalker heavy style with a lot of sentries and constant scouting, this opener is a great choice. You can deal with early pools, go up to 3 gates earlier than if you open FFE and then move out with your msc + 3-4 sentries and warp in another 3 as you take a quick third.
You can also play a similar style if you open nexus forge, but if you do that it's probably more efficient to take a quick third off of a stargate instead. That's because you can't have as many sentries that early if you open nexus forge.
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The problem of 13 gate 17 nexus, with 13 scout, is that the 13 scout delays you quite a bit, to the point that I would rather open core-nexus - scout. Also if you're playing against early pools, even though you can skip the nexus, you have your gas severely delayed, which is not ideal.
PtitDrogo opens with a standard core expand but he 13 scouts and if his opponent went hatch first, he skips gas mining and goes 19 Nexus. But it feels like the minerals he saved by cutting gas mining only repays those he spent to scout 2 minute earlier than usual (although you also get to see the exact gas timing, and you can maybe fake a cannon rush).
Honestly not sure if these early scout builds are worth it. If I want to be super safe, as I said, I would rather go for a standard core-nexus build, scouting only after the nexus to see the 3rd hatch timing (which can give you an idea about the opening/gas timings as well). Yet not many people open early pool, so until the meta changes, 15 Nexus (scout) 15 Gate is the strongest opening imo.
On the other hand, yes the FFE is dead. Straight to gate openings are far superior to expand with. Nowadays the only reason why you would open forge is to cannon rush a hatch first, but if your opponent opens pool, you expand and accept the fact that you are behind.
Usually you take a 3rd at around 7:30 off of 3 warpgates and a forge. After taking your third, you start twilight council, robo, and go up to around 11 gateways, then go for a big timing. It's crazy how much supply you can have with this style, you should be saturated on 3 bases at 10:00, and have around 140 supply of blink stalker-sentry at 12:00, if you do everything correctly.
You can also open with oracle, or against gasless openings, you can get a third at ~6:30 off of 1 gate+forge, since your opponent won't have speed to deny it.
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@kingalphard I don't really agree with anything you said about 13 gate 17 nexus. You can gain tons of info to defend early pools by scouting at 13. Even with cyber before nexus builds you need to scout just after the cyber to be safe. The late gas actually makes it easier to defend a lot of speedling all ins if you do things properly. To defend a lot of them you need to get multiple zealots and you're going to be gathering useless gas with a cyber b4 nexus build. The only reason I see that build being useful is for an early 4 to 5 gate attack.
I don't know what server you play on but I get speedling all innd like 50% of my games easily xD. Whether thats 1312, 1414 or poolgashatch and these are all a lot harder to defend with a 15 nexus.
Do koreans even do cyber nexus ever?
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I think with core expand scouting after the nexus is enough against anything. That's 2 minute later than a 13 scout so you save about 80 minerals. But overall I suppose it comes down to preference. I like to have the best timings possible so I dislike early scouting.
I play on EU and there's not many early pools or 14/14. Around 1 game out of 10 I would say. I don't open nexus gate so often, though, so it's not like people are trying to blind counter me.
Not sure about koreans in particular, but cybercore nexus is still a very common opening.
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Wow thanks for all the great info
@KingAlphard, any VODs or replays of the 11 gateways in 3 bases approach?
Edit: So I've played around with both styles... the gateway into nexus style has been my favorite so far, the early possible aggression against the third works wonders with a recall, especially putting a third behind it. I also tried the core expand, but everything felt a little slower to me, maybe I was doing something wrong, but I def like the gateway into nexus more.
Thanks for all the great info guys... now time to figure out PvT.. lol
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On June 01 2015 19:05 KingAlphard wrote:
The problem of 13 gate 17 nexus, with 13 scout, is that the 13 scout delays you quite a bit, to the point that I would rather open core-nexus - scout. Also if you're playing against early pools, even though you can skip the nexus, you have your gas severely delayed, which is not ideal.
PtitDrogo opens with a standard core expand but he 13 scouts and if his opponent went hatch first, he skips gas mining and goes 19 Nexus. But it feels like the minerals he saved by cutting gas mining only repays those he spent to scout 2 minute earlier than usual (although you also get to see the exact gas timing, and you can maybe fake a cannon rush).
Honestly not sure if these early scout builds are worth it. If I want to be super safe, as I said, I would rather go for a standard core-nexus build, scouting only after the nexus to see the 3rd hatch timing (which can give you an idea about the opening/gas timings as well). Yet not many people open early pool, so until the meta changes, 15 Nexus (scout) 15 Gate is the strongest opening imo.
On the other hand, yes the FFE is dead. Straight to gate openings are far superior to expand with. Nowadays the only reason why you would open forge is to cannon rush a hatch first, but if your opponent opens pool, you expand and accept the fact that you are behind.
Usually you take a 3rd at around 7:30 off of 3 warpgates and a forge. After taking your third, you start twilight council, robo, and go up to around 11 gateways, then go for a big timing. It's crazy how much supply you can have with this style, you should be saturated on 3 bases at 10:00, and have around 140 supply of blink stalker-sentry at 12:00, if you do everything correctly.
You can also open with oracle, or against gasless openings, you can get a third at ~6:30 off of 1 gate+forge, since your opponent won't have speed to deny it.
If you know what you're doing, you won't have a problem with gas against early pools - you don't need gas for anything except the msc. That's no problem because you can go double gas and start mining gas a bit later, since you'll have more probes on minerals for a little longer than a 1 gas msc expand would anyway.
What matters most is whether you can get a zealot out to block your ramp. The early scout allows you to chrono boost a zealot to prevent lings from getting in, which is helpful. It allows you to adapt by building your second pylon 1 hex away from your gateway to place your zealot - that way, not only does the chance of you misplacing your zealot become really small, but also your zealot can't possibly be targeted by more than 1 ling at a time.
Another obvious advantege is that you can decide whether or not to build your second pylon and core at your wall (reaction to hatch first). Sending an early scout also allows you to wall your natural with a forge against certain gas openers that can make your life a living hell if you open nexus gate. If you open nexus gate, anything other than hatch first is much messier. Not to mention you won't have a wall done as early as if you open gate nexus.
Opening msc expand definitely allows for more aggressive timings - which are not the goal of gate nexus openers anyway -, but cutting the early gateway scout doesn't make your economy equal to 13 gate 17 nexus. I opened 13 gate 17 nexus pretty much exclusively last season and watched a whole bunch of replays to learn how to react to all sorts of builds. If your goal is to take a fast third with a bunch of sentries and tech to blink with attack upgrades behind it, 13 gate 17 nexus is a safe opener that transitions nicely into a fast third (not as well as an untouched nexus gate for obvious reasons).
If all you want to do is take a fast third, opening msc expanding is kind of a waste imo - your economy will be worse even if you don't scout and you won't do a gateway timing anyway. Unless you want more flexibility, taking an easier third and being able to adapt more efficiently to all sorts of builds is more worth it than potential aggression imo.
As for nexus forge, I wouldn't say it's bad at all. However, at least until the end of last season, pros were going fast third into blink sentry all the time. The thing is, if you want to go stargate before taking a third, it makes more sense to go nexus forge, unless you want to take a risk and open nexus gate. There's no need for earlier wg if you want to go stargate, so having superior economy is just better imo. Of course, if you pylon scout and see hatch first you can very safely go nexus gate. I could be wrong, but I don't think going nexus gate is really worth it against 14-15 pool openers, At least in my case, skipping the early wall and getting a late zealot on top of that messes up my economy too much to be worth it.
On June 02 2015 11:51 ffadicted wrote:
Wow thanks for all the great info
@KingAlphard, any VODs or replays of the 11 gateways in 3 bases approach?
Edit: So I've played around with both styles... the gateway into nexus style has been my favorite so far, the early possible aggression against the third works wonders with a recall, especially putting a third behind it. I also tried the core expand, but everything felt a little slower to me, maybe I was doing something wrong, but I def like the gateway into nexus more.
Thanks for all the great info guys... now time to figure out PvT.. lol
I feel the same way... msc expanding into a fast third feels very sluggish. Gate nexus just transitions better into this style.
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Well you guys said a lot already, indeed gate nexus is incredibly better than gate/cyber/nexus (except if you're like me and you 4 gate zealot all day everyday )
You don't HAVE to scout at 13, a lot of good toss skip the scouting all the time since it's already a really safe build, but imo the info of expo/gas timing is too important to pass on.
Also 11 gates is way too much, 9 is my go to number and I've never had a problem spending my money in the thousand of PvZ I've played with this style.
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My issue with 13 gate 17 nexus scout is that you're supply blocked against early pools, so unless you try to attack the zergling with the scouting probe hoping that he kills it you can't start the zealot until very late. I asked naniwa about it on stream and he said you should either 13 scout or 13 gate 16 nexus to be really safe.
Your income with 66 probes mining is 1920/720, to spend all your money with 9 warpgates on stalkers you need to hit a warp in every 35 seconds (stalker cooldown is 32) so it requires perfect macro. It's pretty much the same reason why you can go 4 gate (= 12 on 3 bases) blink in PvP when 3 gates (=9 on 3 bases) are enough, you have more time to micro compared to the time spent to warp in units. In the end I don't think that spending 300 more minerals once is such a big deal.
I think that core expand is still good because 4 gate is a strong build against gasless openings, and gas openings take a third really late (5-6 minute mark) so economies are still even, considering that you can take your 3rd normally at 7:30 . You need to be more careful against speedlings, but you also have higher sentry energy. It's also the best build against early pools and 14/14 imo because you can counter attack so fast and hard.
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9 gates is enough because you also have a robo, a shit tons of chronoboost and +3 to research. I agree that adding a 10th gateway isn't probably a big deal but it''s really important to keep producing units constently rather than adding too much gateways and ending up having less.
Core expand in general get countered by hatch first. You just have less economy than the zerg and you end up behind pretty much always. It's indeed better vs 14/14 and arguably better vs pool first (4gate zealot ftw) but that's why you scout at 13 to adapt and being able to mine your gas if you don't see an hatch first.
I can't really relate to the gate nexus 17 problem vs early ling since I always take a gas and build my second pylone before planting down the nexus ^_^
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I've been using NonY's safe 1G FE. It protects the ramp against early pools and can close the natural against gas-first openings. The build sounds like it is not the most economic, however the poke to the 3rd nearly always keeps us even on economy.
I play extremely safe and conservative. For whatever reason, I just cannot react fast enough against the Zergies. I tend to shy away from builds that have thin margins for error.
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EPT
