EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 355
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Laggman
France8 Posts
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HelpMeGetBetter
United States766 Posts
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-HuShang-
Canada393 Posts
On June 03 2015 01:58 HelpMeGetBetter wrote: What is the best BO to safely expand in PvP to ensure a mid- to-late-game game? The one you have practiced the most and have figured out ;p. No matter what build you pick you need to iron out your responses to your opponents tech. Generally I tell my students to go oracle 2 gate robo or dt 2 gate robo. It gives you some light pressure that can often win you games or put you extremely far ahead plus you're quite safe to pressure as long as you react properly. | ||
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-HuShang-
Canada393 Posts
On June 02 2015 23:53 Laggman wrote: When a Terran goes fast expand with 1-1-1 to get his technology and drop mines, what's the best reaction to have when you go macro ? 1 obs with your robo at home between your 2 bases and invest gas in technology or 3 obs with 1 on each nexus and 1 scouting terran base ? Do you mean reaper -> factory or factory first? You said fast expand so I'm going to assume you mean reaper -> factory. The following response will be based on reaper -> factory and assuming you open robo. Phase 1: Scout on 13(safest time to scout in pvt) and you get to the Terrans base and you see gas being mined and a barracks. You'll have to fine tune your game sense here, you should see about 75 gas mined. This means reaper. If you see more than 100 gas mined that's factory. At this point send the probe somewhere the Terran scv is unlikely to go. Phase 2: Now that you know what you're facing you're going along with your build comfortable, you've started your nexus and a msc. At this point send the probe back into the Terrans base. If you send it at the proper time you'll have plenty of room to find out your opponents tech(factory or additional rax) and also get out of the base before marines pop. The reaper CAN come back and kill the probe but just acknowledge that by doing so he greatly diminishes his chance of scouting your tech. Phase 3: Factory or bio? If he's going factory you want to make stalkers, plenty of stalkers. You should be able to make 3 stalkers before you complete warp gate. Keeping warping in stalkers when you can, try to go up to around 6(3 at each base). Your first observer goes to your opponents base and your second observer stays at home. Your opponents drop should come in at around 7:40 depending on the map of course and you will probably have 4-5 stalkers. Be careful of marines coming into the natural at the same time as mines in the main. After this point its up to you, most robo styles go up to 4 observers. However, if you can fit your robo bay in between the 2nd and third obs thats fine. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On June 02 2015 19:00 KingAlphard wrote: My issue with 13 gate 17 nexus scout is that you're supply blocked against early pools, so unless you try to attack the zergling with the scouting probe hoping that he kills it you can't start the zealot until very late. I asked naniwa about it on stream and he said you should either 13 scout or 13 gate 16 nexus to be really safe. Your income with 66 probes mining is 1920/720, to spend all your money with 9 warpgates on stalkers you need to hit a warp in every 35 seconds (stalker cooldown is 32) so it requires perfect macro. It's pretty much the same reason why you can go 4 gate (= 12 on 3 bases) blink in PvP when 3 gates (=9 on 3 bases) are enough, you have more time to micro compared to the time spent to warp in units. In the end I don't think that spending 300 more minerals once is such a big deal. I think that core expand is still good because 4 gate is a strong build against gasless openings, and gas openings take a third really late (5-6 minute mark) so economies are still even, considering that you can take your 3rd normally at 7:30 . You need to be more careful against speedlings, but you also have higher sentry energy. It's also the best build against early pools and 14/14 imo because you can counter attack so fast and hard. Yeah, I know that problem. I have to disagree with Naniwa though. You shouldn't get supply blocked against early pools even if you're going 13 gate 17 nexus. While I was still learning the basics of this build, I did some research and took a couple of notes. I've decided to underline how I solved this "problem" against 10 pools in the early pool section. Keep in mind some of what I wrote is a little too technical for most people. I wrote these notes for myself after all. Most people only look at the third and simple things. I decided to take notes related to idle larva here and there, because zergs sometimes make a whole bunch of lings on NA to try and get inside your base before your wall is up (lol), because they probably believe most NA players don't even know what the idle larva means and straight up ignore it. Probably true for the most part. I know I had my own issues with this before I rewatched Rain's replays and analyzed his scouting patterns. PvZ - 13 gate 17 Nexus (gateway scout) Scouting - Regular Builds + Show Spoiler + Gateway, cybercore, and second pylon placement: As a rule of thumb, I always build (1) my gateway at my ramp, (2) my second pylon as a part of my wall at my natural against hatch first OR somewhere in my main against pool first, AND ideally 1 hex away from my gateway against a pool first with 6 lings to protect my zealot. I always build my (3) cybercore as part of my wall against hatch first OR use it to block my ramp next to my gateway against pool first. • Hatch first --> no pool / gas by 2:55-3:00? --> confirm third --> briefly check geysers in main --> (stylistic/optional) you can cut the zealot and make a stalker instead o Build: 15 hatch 17 hatch 18 pool 17 overlord • Hatch first --> Pool + idle larva at 3:00-3:20 --> confirm 3:30 third o Build: 15 hatch 17 pool 17 hatch 17 overlord o First idle larva pops at 3:00, second pops slightly before 3:20 o A "regular" 2 base opener would make a drone and an overlord at this point. o Not much reason to worry about the idle larva if you see a third. This already delays one of the queens, so it’s clearly a macro-oriented opener rather than a whole bunch of slow lings. In other words, you don't really need to rush up your wall. o (optional/stylistic) Since confirming the early third means there’s no early speed, you can go zealot stalker, send the zealot out on the map immediately, and laugh at any lings because there’s no early speed. PS: I haven't played in a while since the end of last season, but as far as I recall, this notes on idle larva basically mean, if a zerg wants to make a bunch of slow lings to hit you slightly before your wall is up, they won't cut drones at 3:00-3:20, but rather after that. • Pool first --> scout larva o Build: 14 or 15 pool --> 15 hatch --> 14 overlord --> 1-2 larva + queen before anything else o Variation: 15 pool --> 16 hatch --> 15 overlord --> queen --> lings o Scouting: there will be 2 idle larva and 1 overlord in production before the pool finishes. The zerg shouldn’t use more than 1-2 larva before making his queen, unless he’s delaying his queen to rush 6 lings out. If they do make 6 lings, a pylon 1 hex away from the gateway at your main ramp to tuck your zealot in prevents more than 1 ling from hitting it. o If it’s a 15 pool as described above, there will be only 1 idle larva and the second will pop at about 3:00. This means it’s impossible to rush 6 lings out. Scouting/Reaction/Timings - Early Pools and Speedling Builds + Show Spoiler + 6 pool • Spotted at 2:20-2:25, between natural ramp and natural expansion • Third chrono already spent, but you’re still at 16/18. • Arrives at your main ramp at 3:00. 10 pool • Spotted at 2:40-2:41ish. Scout the eggs right as you go up the ramp and the lings will pop out pretty much immediately as soon as you arrive. • You spot this build right when the last probe is about to pop out. Possible to cancel if you have your nexus preemptively selected, but you only have 1-3 seconds. • If you fail to cancel the probe and he doesn’t kill your scouting probe away, just kill one of your probes and start a zealot immediately. • Getting the zealot out is easy. You will have a 4th chrono to make sure it’s not late. • Arrives at your main ramp at 3:30. PS: Of course, you can also save your third chrono since it's not that big a deal. I might have seen a pro do this once, but I can't recall. I don't recall ever being in a situation I didn't have enough time to cancel my probe against a 10 pool. That situation is pretty rare if you scout the eggs and have your nexus preemptively selected anyway, so I think saving your third chrono is playing it a little too safe. Not necessarily bad, perhaps a stylistic thing to a certain extent... but also unnecessary in the grand scheme of things imo. 14-14 speedling • Delay your 2nd geyer. Cut probes briefly to make a wall at your natural with 2 pylons, cybercore, and forge. Obviously, you shouldn't skip the zealot. • Cybercore first gives you a slightly faster msc, but not much. Forge first means a quicker cannon, which is probably very good as well. It seems like both can work. I hope this helps those getting started with this build save some time. I didn't write what I do against a 6 pool, but if anybody needs help with that, just let me know and I'll provide you with a replay. I have a few of those against early pools from practice. Anyway, here's a brief description of what you can do if you're really worried, just found it: Gas management against 6 pools: pylon + double gas (stay on 16/18) zealot + cybercore get enough money for second zealot + third pylon --> start minig gas (basically, 3:15) OR go gas core gas Both options work. These are the most optimal ways to mine gas upon scouting a 6 pool if you haven't taken them yet. ------------------------ Ok, since I've already done this much, I might as well post my practice replay against early pools as well. 6p defense - http://drop.sc/399584 8p, but 20 sec delay, just like 9-10p - http://drop.sc/399585 9p hitting the cybercore - http://drop.sc/399586 9p hitting the zealot without pylon trick - http://drop.sc/399587 9p kinda hitting the zealot with pylon trick - http://drop.sc/399588 | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
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Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
On June 03 2015 05:12 KingAlphard wrote: I was talking about 13 gate 17 nexus 17 scout. If you gateway scout then of course you can change the build order so that you don't supply block. 13 gate 17 nexus 17 scout misses the point of going gasless gate expand in the first place. you're supposed to scout at 13 to adjust your build accordingly. If you 17 scout, might as well go 15 nexus 15 gate since your gate will be finished when probe arrives at enemy base..... now on maps with short enough rush distance, you should be able to cancel your 17th probe in time to not get supply blocked. worst case scenario, you're forced to kill one of your own probes with your probes in your mineral line. | ||
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-HuShang-
Canada393 Posts
@xinzoe You're right about not getting to your opponents base with a 17 scout in time to see what they're doing but you have to consider that on two player maps you will be able to see the lings approaching. With a 15 nexus build your scout is a little bit earlier but you don't have the gate finished. 13 gate 17 nexus with a 17 scout on a 2 player map is the greediest you can be while still being safe vs everything IF you have great micro and great understanding of timings. AKA don't bother unless you're top gm. @vchapter nice rightup ^^ even taught me some timings. With the 13 gate 17 nexus build I think it's pretty good to save your 3rd chrono. You mention that its quite nice for a 10 pool but I've recently found its also amazing vs speedling all ins, particularly 14 14's. With that one extra chrono you can easily get 3 zealots out and a msc which basically denies anything the zerg can do at your natural. The only thing you have to worry about is the zerg getting into your main which can be solved easily by leaving a probe there to make a pylon should the zerg try to go up the ramp. Edit: Can you show me a replay of your 14 14 defence, I don't think walling the natural works. Edit2: I think walling the top of your ramp with a 13 gate is pretty pointless. You can put your 17 pylon at the ramp and wall with a cybercore and its just as effective plus you're so much safer vs 6 through 10 pools and in addition your buildings are safer vs other builds like 12 through 15 pools which lets you be greedier and skip the zealot if you want. | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On June 03 2015 06:24 Xinzoe wrote: 13 gate 17 nexus 17 scout misses the point of going gasless gate expand in the first place. you're supposed to scout at 13 to adjust your build accordingly. If you 17 scout, might as well go 15 nexus 15 gate since your gate will be finished when probe arrives at enemy base..... now on maps with short enough rush distance, you should be able to cancel your 17th probe in time to not get supply blocked. worst case scenario, you're forced to kill one of your own probes with your probes in your mineral line. Yeah that's what I was saying too, 15 nexus 15 gate is better if you want to scout late. To be fair I hate 13 scouting because on maps like coda with suboptimal mineral income your timings become really silly, but that's just me. 13 gate 17 nexus with a 17 scout on a 2 player map is the greediest you can be while still being safe vs everything IF you have great micro and great understanding of timings. AKA don't bother unless you're top gm. Again, what if opponent goes for an early pool, and you can't start a zealot because you're supply blocked at 17/18? After trying 13 gate - scout - 17 nexus and 15 nexus 15 gate - scout, I always feel like the latter is way more powerful, if it goes unpunished. So if you don't get cheesed very often, I would say it can even be a good ladder opening. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On June 03 2015 06:56 -HuShang- wrote: @vchapter nice rightup ^^ even taught me some timings. With the 13 gate 17 nexus build I think it's pretty good to save your 3rd chrono. You mention that its quite nice for a 10 pool but I've recently found its also amazing vs speedling all ins, particularly 14 14's. With that one extra chrono you can easily get 3 zealots out and a msc which basically denies anything the zerg can do at your natural. The only thing you have to worry about is the zerg getting into your main which can be solved easily by leaving a probe there to make a pylon should the zerg try to go up the ramp. Edit: Can you show me a replay of your 14 14 defence, I don't think walling the natural works. Edit2: I think walling the top of your ramp with a 13 gate is pretty pointless. You can put your 17 pylon at the ramp and wall with a cybercore and its just as effective plus you're so much safer vs 6 through 10 pools and in addition your buildings are safer vs other builds like 12 through 15 pools which lets you be greedier and skip the zealot if you want. Thanks. As I said before, I think saving your third chrono is an option that doesn't hurt your economy much, but I never do that myself. You don't need that chrono to deal with 10 pools at all since you have a 4th one to spend before lings get to your base. Walling your ramp isn't pointless. Stylistic, but not pointless. I studied Rain's replays when I decided to learn this build, since he was the one actually doing it last year more than anyone else, and yeah he always built his gate by his main ramp. You're also incorrect when it comes to 10 pools - my version of the build is superior in that case. As you can see in the replays, you can easily get 2 zealots out and buy enough time for your msc to come out without letting lings get into your main if you do my pylon trick (the lings won't kill your first zealot before your second one comes out, so you're good). There's no advantage in letting the lings get in. Against 6 pools, this gateway placement is less efficient, but if you watch my replay you'll see you can hold off 6 pools this way without much trouble at all if you know what you're doing. As long as you pull some probes early enough so that your zealot doesn't get surrounded by lings and avoid getting your gateway unpowered, you'll be in great shape no matter where your gateway is placed. Of course, you don't want to commit to the engagement with your probes to the point you lose them if you can help it, but 6 pools shouldn't be a concern to you if you're doing this build anyway, so I'll leave it at that. Against 14-14 openers, that chrono is pretty much useless in my experience. Walling your natural does work, you just happen to get a late cannon. This response is like turning your build into a FFE of sorts. I might have a replay, but I'll have to do some digging to see if I can find one because I played so many games last season. I actually learned this from Stats, so fortunately there's a vod. It's a 14-13, which is basically the same thing. Here: | ||
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-HuShang-
Canada393 Posts
On June 03 2015 07:53 KingAlphard wrote: Again, what if opponent goes for an early pool, and you can't start a zealot because you're supply blocked at 17/18? After trying 13 gate - scout - 17 nexus and 15 nexus 15 gate - scout, I always feel like the latter is way more powerful, if it goes unpunished. So if you don't get cheesed very often, I would say it can even be a good ladder opening. you kill a probe and dont lose the game. If you open 15 nexus 15 gate you lose. Of course 15 nexus 15 gate is way better if they dont cheese you, but thats not the point. The point is you dont die to anything with 13 gate 17 nexus. You can't really compare 15 nexus vs 15 gate. One is obviously safe and one is obviously superior economically but greedy. I thought we were comparing cyber expo vs 13 gate 17 nexus. @vhapter that defence was so razor thin vs the 14 13 x'D. Didnt realize you could hold at the bottom. Your building placement has to be super perfect though, no way he holds that on a map where you cant rewall that pylon with a gateway. If you're on a map where you can't wall like that the chrono definitely helps a lot. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
But yeah, that's a map dependent way to hold a 14-14. Fortunately, most maps allow you to wall your natural like that nowadays, so as long as you get your wall up and play it right, you should be perfectly fine. However, not attempting to take your natural against a 14-14 definitely puts you in a very tricky position. If you're facing a 10 pool with speed, yeah that makes sense. But as far as I know, you'll probably get wrecked against a 14-14 if you delay it. I don't recall ever seeing a pro cancel his natural against a 14-14 even when opening nexus gate, let alone 13 gate 17 nexus. Of course, holding off that build with a nexus gate opener is an entirely different affair, so I'll leave it at that. | ||
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qjasiu
7 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
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HelpMeGetBetter
United States766 Posts
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[PkF] Wire
France24239 Posts
On June 05 2015 04:00 HelpMeGetBetter wrote: What are you supposed to do against Vipers? Is there a way to know if they are trying to pull Colossus or use use the blinding cloud? and every time I try to feedback them the templars just get pick off. No idea what to do when I see them The viable styles that involve getting colossi are phoenix opening into quick colossi and oracle into void ray colossi. If you're going for a standard forge twilight fast third style there is zero reason to get colossi instead of storm and even just more blink stalkers and sentries. Nevertheless, if you're some hardcore fan of stargate openings into colossi, once you identify a viper timing (quite easy to see : he gets range upgrades and a quick hive), you should cut stalkers/void rays entirely (basically no gas unit except templars), research charge and make a templar archives. You cut colossi at 3 and then get a warp prism to inflict counter damage while he's positioning his max army around your base. While waiting for the attack, you just spam chargelots and templars, you want 4 of them to feedback every viper, and then you add some archons. When he comes, you dance your templars in front of your army and under an overcharge to try and get the feedbacks. Once storm finishes you should just defend. Normally you have dealt some counter damage with your warp prism ; you can then push and most of the times finish the game. | ||
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HelpMeGetBetter
United States766 Posts
On June 05 2015 05:11 [PkF] Wire wrote: The viable styles that involve getting colossi are phoenix opening into quick colossi and oracle into void ray colossi. If you're going for a standard forge twilight fast third style there is zero reason to get colossi instead of storm and even just more blink stalkers and sentries. Nevertheless, if you're some hardcore fan of stargate openings into colossi, once you identify a viper timing (quite easy to see : he gets range upgrades and a quick hive), you should cut stalkers/void rays entirely (basically no gas unit except templars), research charge and make a templar archives. You cut colossi at 3 and then get a warp prism to inflict counter damage while he's positioning his max army around your base. While waiting for the attack, you just spam chargelots and templars, you want 4 of them to feedback every viper, and then you add some archons. When he comes, you dance your templars in front of your army and under an overcharge to try and get the feedbacks. Once storm finishes you should just defend. Normally you have dealt some counter damage with your warp prism ; you can then push and most of the times finish the game. You mean try not to get Colossus if they have Vipers? | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24239 Posts
On June 05 2015 05:21 HelpMeGetBetter wrote: You mean try not to get Colossus if they have Vipers? It should be kind of logical, isn't it ? Vipers are made to help deal with colossi, so don't be surprised to lose if you get 4+ colossi while he has vipers. Blink colossi is the worst composition ever against vipers since vipers will abduct the colossi and blind the stalkers. It's very bad against ultras too. Those are playstyles you need to adjust heavily against -same with mutas in a weaker way. The only thing blink colossi is very good against is roach hydra, it's decent vs numbers of brood lords that aren't too high ; it used to be very good against SHs but SHs are irrelevant in PvZ in their current state. Otherwise blink colossi is a good base composition to get out of a stargate opening, but you need more to make it a competitive army (templars with storm against vipers, immortals against ultras, void rays/tempests vs brood lords, phoenix/archons vs mutas etc). | ||
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Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
Honestly i don't see a reason to go phoenix/colossus over 3base blink (and you can open oracle before going blink anyway if you like stargate builds) other than to mixing things up for a BoX series, or if you're just bored of blink builds. | ||
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Icekin
88 Posts
Fast question here I just got a very good terran against: typical late game engagement, i have zealots, some stalkers, colossus and hts, he got bioball and ghosts. before the engage, he scan my army, sent cloacked ghosts, sniped my obs and emped my whole army. I lost the engage, gg. How could I prevent the obs sniping from terrans? What should I do in that case? | ||
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