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Hello mates, I really appreciate your help everytime I come here !
My latest question is against zerg.
1/ How do you react when you go 1G expand and the zerg takes your natural with a hatch ?
I tried to killed with 1 zealot +5/6 probes because I saw some protoss doing the same on a stream but it takes a lot of mining time. I tried also to go all in 4G while leaving the proxy hatch, but that's no good either because of the larvas>lings killing my probes.
So I'm not sure yet how i shoud react vs a hatch on my natural. The only thing I know for sure is that when I'm done dealing with this proxy hatch, I'm behind the zerg in term of economy because he delayed my expand for so long.
2/ Consequently, I think I should put a probe to patrol on my natural. But at which timing should I take that probe out of my mineral line ?
3/ Proxy hatch on a protoss natural seems really effective even if the zerg cancels the proxy. Why zergs do not do that more often ? Is there some kind of disadvantage ? It seems to me that zergs can still take their natural while doing so, so I don't see the black point in doing so.
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Hello
Ho to counter the recent push Terrans do in ladder? They hit with 2 hellions in natural+4 marine and 2 mines on main (drop).
All i got is 3 stalkers and a msc.
Ho to deal with this? I think this was dream vs hero in starleague semifinal, where hero lost all games vs this opening
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On June 11 2015 21:22 Laggman wrote:
Hello mates, I really appreciate your help everytime I come here !
My latest question is against zerg.
1/ How do you react when you go 1G expand and the zerg takes your natural with a hatch ?
I tried to killed with 1 zealot +5/6 probes because I saw some protoss doing the same on a stream but it takes a lot of mining time. I tried also to go all in 4G while leaving the proxy hatch, but that's no good either because of the larvas>lings killing my probes.
So I'm not sure yet how i shoud react vs a hatch on my natural. The only thing I know for sure is that when I'm done dealing with this proxy hatch, I'm behind the zerg in term of economy because he delayed my expand for so long.
2/ Consequently, I think I should put a probe to patrol on my natural. But at which timing should I take that probe out of my mineral line ?
3/ Proxy hatch on a protoss natural seems really effective even if the zerg cancels the proxy. Why zergs do not do that more often ? Is there some kind of disadvantage ? It seems to me that zergs can still take their natural while doing so, so I don't see the black point in doing so.
Hatch blocking is only really effective if you scout it late or try to go nexus first. sholip made one of his great threads about the math of it - click me.
He does the math considering you only have probes to kill it/force a cancel. In this case you will end up slightly behind, but it's still not game ending.
As you can see from the numbers sholip gives, the Zerg is also delaying his build by quite a bit as well as losing mining time, thus with a gate expand you are in a good shape to deal with the hatch blocking.
edit: don't forget to chrono your zealot once you scout the block!
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On May 28 2015 23:45 Kenny_mk wrote:
Hello people, first post here, and sorry for my bad english,i'm french :d Wouallez OGTV !.
I'm here to talk about a "trash build" that works very well at my level (high Platinum) it is "One base Stargate into Robo all-in" :D yes yes
I wanted to take your advice about this build and pottentially increase him,since it is almost my creation,he is'nt optimized at all but work pretty well,(that's why no new topic) i've got 65% Win rate with him, and most of the lose is due to Photon Rush /proxy / gate 10 11 12 rush or late game lose (where the build doesn't matter anymore). It may be less effective in Master level,altough i already beat some Diamond and one Master (i proud toss now) with it.
13 gate
14 Assimilator
16 pylon
18 Cyber
18 Assimilator
23 Stargate
25 A safe Zealot Cancel is possible,although not so usefull
24 pylon
24 Stalker
26 Oracles/phenix (chrono)
28 Robo
30 Stalker Cancel then phenix
then Pylon then 2nd gateway
Probably error as said,and the follow-up is'nt setup correctly for me. i stop probe when the base is satured
I've looked for looking-alike build but i did'nt found anything,beyond the safe stargate build opener. The goal is simple,since most of Protoss think about PvP like Rock/Paper/scissors situation, i open classic stargate one oracle (phenix if i scout/feel Stargate on the other side,or cause it's strong) then phenix,most of time i skip Mothership core AND warpgate, for doing a safe stalker after the first oracle,and then i build 1 robo then 1 gate. Phenix/oracles should scout and see the tech he is going to,and prevent him from doing any agression/scouting. Most of time ppl go heavy stalker,sometime Robo (cause Diamond/platinum i think) or stargate (worst case) and then the brain begin.
Mass Stalker=> I just do few more stalker/zealot,gate might be unused sometime and also u might be forced to cut Warpgate a long time (but since most of your unit come from Robo and Stargate..) and chronoboost Immortal and put in some void rays if i don't commited too much on Phenix. After triggered some Photon Overcharge,i can push With 1/ 2 of Zealot/stalkers/immortal/void rays.The variety is big here, doing great damage against stalker and once they are down,void rays finish the game,still have a few gate unit for tanking eventual Zealot (but since he think you go stargate there should'nt be many) you can also build observer relatively early and relatively late Mcore to deal with eventual DT
Robo=> I keep Phenix Production, put in 1 or 2 immortal as well, you scout harass then hit with some energy in your Phenix,lift his immortal,kill his stalker while, also putting more zealot in your compo might be better.
Stargate=> The early stalker should prevent his oracle to totally kill you,and the greed stargate build should allow you to be even and defend or do damage as well. In this case i go 2nd Stargate most of time while expanding depending on the match.
I found this very strong on ladder, ppl don't expect the robo and immortal that come with them,and opening Stargate allow for a GREAT scout advantage.Your gate doesn't work everytime,but the composition advantage you should get is much better at my level at least.Also with so much tech buildings, the guy might think you want to expand while you hit soon as you scout an advantage/snipe the Mcore or at least for Overcharge.
The Con is Rush stalker, this thing unscouted hit just when you first Stargate unit come out and with no M Core and 1 gate, you have to really out-micro him to survive.
I know this is tricky,but so is the PvP match up and i think with proper Reaction/build, an Stargate into Robo 1base all-in could perform at least decently even in master (altough i'm maybe completely wrong)
What the hell are you going to defend with against early pressure/ cheeze? Do you even scout? This sounds like a bronze league build order
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On June 11 2015 21:22 Laggman wrote:
Hello mates, I really appreciate your help everytime I come here !
My latest question is against zerg.
1/ How do you react when you go 1G expand and the zerg takes your natural with a hatch ?
I tried to killed with 1 zealot +5/6 probes because I saw some protoss doing the same on a stream but it takes a lot of mining time. I tried also to go all in 4G while leaving the proxy hatch, but that's no good either because of the larvas>lings killing my probes.
So I'm not sure yet how i shoud react vs a hatch on my natural. The only thing I know for sure is that when I'm done dealing with this proxy hatch, I'm behind the zerg in term of economy because he delayed my expand for so long.
2/ Consequently, I think I should put a probe to patrol on my natural. But at which timing should I take that probe out of my mineral line ?
3/ Proxy hatch on a protoss natural seems really effective even if the zerg cancels the proxy. Why zergs do not do that more often ? Is there some kind of disadvantage ? It seems to me that zergs can still take their natural while doing so, so I don't see the black point in doing so.
1. Quick Mothership Core/ Zealot and preferrably sentry to force field your ramp from zerglings at the proxy hatch. Pulling that many probes that early really screws you over. Just consider that the zerg wasted 300 mins to lay down a production building that's going to eventually be killed, so you need to consider that his strategy is somewhat all in/ early pressure and agression. Factor that into how you would handle your build order
2. The amount of times you'll face a zerg going proxy hatch in my opinion doesn't validate losing that mining time for just sending a probe to patrol. If you want, send a probe after 9 pylon to scout. If you see an early drone scout, that's an indicator that you may be proxy hatched.
3. Zerg sacrifice a lot of their macro and econ to proxy hatch. Since zerg gets absolutely destroyed mid/ late game against protoss if this isn't successful, a zerg would rather do a 2 hatch pool or 3 hatch before pool to get a head start on a protoss economically and get some map control with zerglings to deny proxy pylons. This game is about speed and macro rather than fancy micro and cheeze.
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On June 11 2015 22:35 Icekin wrote:
Hello
Ho to counter the recent push Terrans do in ladder? They hit with 2 hellions in natural+4 marine and 2 mines on main (drop).
All i got is 3 stalkers and a msc.
Ho to deal with this? I think this was dream vs hero in starleague semifinal, where hero lost all games vs this opening
Your question is a little vague as you aren't giving us any info on your build order or tech. It sounds like you went quick forge with your expand and gas with maybe 3/ 4 gate. Best build order in PvT is a 1 gate FE into robo and 1 or 2 extra gateways. Quick ob to scout what they're going for/ safety against widow mines. You have photon overcharge with your MSC and stalkers shouldn't have a problem against marines. Are you bronze/ silver league?
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On June 12 2015 23:03 dr3am_b3ing wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2015 21:22 Laggman wrote:
Hello mates, I really appreciate your help everytime I come here !
My latest question is against zerg.
1/ How do you react when you go 1G expand and the zerg takes your natural with a hatch ?
I tried to killed with 1 zealot +5/6 probes because I saw some protoss doing the same on a stream but it takes a lot of mining time. I tried also to go all in 4G while leaving the proxy hatch, but that's no good either because of the larvas>lings killing my probes.
So I'm not sure yet how i shoud react vs a hatch on my natural. The only thing I know for sure is that when I'm done dealing with this proxy hatch, I'm behind the zerg in term of economy because he delayed my expand for so long.
2/ Consequently, I think I should put a probe to patrol on my natural. But at which timing should I take that probe out of my mineral line ?
3/ Proxy hatch on a protoss natural seems really effective even if the zerg cancels the proxy. Why zergs do not do that more often ? Is there some kind of disadvantage ? It seems to me that zergs can still take their natural while doing so, so I don't see the black point in doing so. 1. Quick Mothership Core/ Zealot and preferrably sentry to force field your ramp from zerglings at the proxy hatch. Pulling that many probes that early really screws you over. Just consider that the zerg wasted 300 mins to lay down a production building that's going to eventually be killed, so you need to consider that his strategy is somewhat all in/ early pressure and agression. Factor that into how you would handle your build order 2. The amount of times you'll face a zerg going proxy hatch in my opinion doesn't validate losing that mining time for just sending a probe to patrol. If you want, send a probe after 9 pylon to scout. If you see an early drone scout, that's an indicator that you may be proxy hatched. 3. Zerg sacrifice a lot of their macro and econ to proxy hatch. Since zerg gets absolutely destroyed mid/ late game against protoss if this isn't successful, a zerg would rather do a 2 hatch pool or 3 hatch before pool to get a head start on a protoss economically and get some map control with zerglings to deny proxy pylons. This game is about speed and macro rather than fancy micro and cheeze.
things only go downhill if you let the hatch go up (think creep and larvae in your natural as well as the danger of a queen getting out and dropping a tumor).
with a gate expand there is no reason not to deny the hatch with a zealot and some probes. from there on you can play a normal game and be just fine. moreover, letting the hatch finish means you are playing the game of the Zerg, who probably has more experience in this situation considering how uncommon hatch blocks have become on ladder.
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On June 12 2015 23:12 dr3am_b3ing wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2015 22:35 Icekin wrote:
Hello
Ho to counter the recent push Terrans do in ladder? They hit with 2 hellions in natural+4 marine and 2 mines on main (drop).
All i got is 3 stalkers and a msc.
Ho to deal with this? I think this was dream vs hero in starleague semifinal, where hero lost all games vs this opening Your question is a little vague as you aren't giving us any info on your build order or tech. It sounds like you went quick forge with your expand and gas with maybe 3/ 4 gate. Best build order in PvT is a 1 gate FE into robo and 1 or 2 extra gateways. Quick ob to scout what they're going for/ safety against widow mines. You have photon overcharge with your MSC and stalkers shouldn't have a problem against marines. Are you bronze/ silver league?
I'm master league...im doing hero build, with blink -> dt drop-> colossus -> third base
Terran hits around 7:00 mins with 2 hellions in natural and 4rine+2mine in main drop. I have just 3 stalker and a msc out, guess I can get 5 stalker, but anyway I take damage if unscouted.
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What do you guys think of this build vs Terran? What do you think it can be weak against?
http://www.twitch.tv/dinomightsc2/v/6230377
http://www.twitch.tv/dinomightsc2/v/6230311
In one of these I forgot my Colossus den for some reason so that's why I build those cannons.
Basically I open Stargate and 2 Oracles into Phoenix Colossus. Oracles can do some damage, act as detection, and keep tabs on his army with Revelation.
Weakness is I delay upgrades a bit lot.
Order is:
gate, 2 gas on 15, cyber, 2 on each gas. Stalker Msc, 3rd pylon, expand. Stargate, then Robo. 2 oracles, and add some gateway units/immortal. Then Colossus den and add phoenix.
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I can still not for the life of me win PvZ on Vaani. I feel like it's just completely impossible with the current state of mutalisk to have a build that can
A) punish their easy 4rth expand,
B) defend mutalisk,
C) properly deal with the plethoria of Roach and Zergling counter attack styles whilst
D) not instantly losing to this 2nd Gold base fast expand bullshit build.
Zerg can just get 3 bases up (gold or no gold), have a very easy fourth, the distance on the map is massive and flanking is really easy. Once they get Mutalisk tech, gg. Protoss cannot defend such an impossible Natural. I tried opening Phoenix, but it's just too weak to greedy styles. Oracle openers only work if Zerg is caught off-guard, and because economy is so readilly accessible, Zerg can outmass Protoss with Air units bigtime.
Seriously, I've tried a ton of shit, it seems like even all ins struggle on this map (+2 Blink; Soul Train). All I can hope is for Zerg to not scout and lose to Oracles or a 7 gate.
At least, that's my experience. I cannot recall professional Protoss winning vs Zerg on this map either, without some major mistakes on Zergs side. Could somebody please enlighten me, because it's getting really frustrating (as you may have noticed ^_^)
PS I play random, I prefer not to veto maps.
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Do the man train.
2 base 1 gas 2x Immortals and 10 gate zealot with +1 and a warp prism.
If he goes muta you're fucked otherwise you annihilate him. You drop in his main, instantly destroy his production buildings and in 20 seconds or so you're up to 20zealots. It's pretty stupid 
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Jason's Blind Blink All In
This is an extremely aggressive blink build, with Blink finishing before the 8 minute mark should you chrono boost your twilight council constantly. You do this blind with no scout so this is in all sense an all in - you either execute it well and destroy your opponent or get hard countered and lose. Fun to do once in a while
-9 Pylon
-13 Gateway
-15 (2) Assimilators
-16 Pylon
-18 Cybernetics Core
-21 @100% Cybernetics Core, Warp Gate & MsC
-23 Pylon
-23 Stalker
-25 Gateway
-26 Twilight Council
*Stop Probe production at 28 supply*
-28 @300 Mins, (2) Gateways
-28 @100% Twilight Council, Blink
*YOU MUST CONSTANTLY CHRONO BOOST YOUR TWILIGHT COUNCIL TO HAVE BLINK ON TIME*
-28 @250 mins, Warp in (2) Stalkers
Warp in a pylon after starting your two stalkers. You should have 24 Probes, a stalker and MsC. When your next 2 Stalkers finish, send out your army and a probe to get into position to blink into your opponent's main and set up a proxy pylon (alternatively, you can send out a probe earlier to set up your pylon faster, but you risk losing it to any reapers/ stalkers that are on the map)
*BENCHMARK*: Blink research should complete at around 7:40*
I'll post a safer version of this build in a moment
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Jason's Safe Blink All In
This is the safe version of an aggressive all in that sacrifices a stalker first for a sentry first in order to send out a Phoenix scout before commencing your attack. Use this build if you suspect that your opponent will be proxying/ cheezing or if you just want to stay safe
-9 Pylon
-13 Gateway
-15 (2) Assimilators *HAVE ONE SATURATED BUT ONLY HAVE 2 PROBES GATHERING FROM THE OTHER*
-16 Pylon
-18 Cybernetics Core
-21 Gateway
-21 @100% Cybernetics Core, Start Warp Gate, Sentry and MsC *SATURATE YOUR OTHER GAS*
-25 Pylon
-26 Twilight Council
*Stop Probe production at 28 supply
-28 (2) Gateways
-28 @100% Twilight Council, Blink Research
*YOU MUST CONSTANTLY CHRONO BOOST YOUR TWILIGHT COUNCIL TO HAVE BLINK IN TIME*
@250 mins, Warp in (2) Stalkers
Monitor your sentry's energy. When it reaches 100, send out a scouting Phoenix to your opponent's main. Use this scouting information to determine whether your should commence your attack or be defensive with your blink.
Warp in a pylon after starting your two stalkers. You should have 24 Probes, a sentry and MsC. Should your scouting information appear that your attack will work, send out your army and a probe to get into position to blink into your opponent's main and set up a proxy pylon (alternatively, you can send out a probe earlier to set up your pylon faster, but you risk losing it to any reapers/ stalkers that are on the map)
*BENCHMARK*: Blink research should complete at around 7:40*
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On June 17 2015 06:43 DinoMight wrote:Do the man train. 2 base 1 gas 2x Immortals and 10 gate zealot with +1 and a warp prism. If he goes muta you're fucked otherwise you annihilate him. You drop in his main, instantly destroy his production buildings and in 20 seconds or so you're up to 20zealots. It's pretty stupid
That is no solution
GSL SPOILER
I was so hoping for sOs to come up with an answer but he got Protossed by Byul :o
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On June 17 2015 05:37 SC2Toastie wrote:
I can still not for the life of me win PvZ on Vaani. I feel like it's just completely impossible with the current state of mutalisk to have a build that can
A) punish their easy 4rth expand,
B) defend mutalisk,
C) properly deal with the plethoria of Roach and Zergling counter attack styles whilst
D) not instantly losing to this 2nd Gold base fast expand bullshit build.
Zerg can just get 3 bases up (gold or no gold), have a very easy fourth, the distance on the map is massive and flanking is really easy. Once they get Mutalisk tech, gg. Protoss cannot defend such an impossible Natural. I tried opening Phoenix, but it's just too weak to greedy styles. Oracle openers only work if Zerg is caught off-guard, and because economy is so readilly accessible, Zerg can outmass Protoss with Air units bigtime.
Seriously, I've tried a ton of shit, it seems like even all ins struggle on this map (+2 Blink; Soul Train). All I can hope is for Zerg to not scout and lose to Oracles or a 7 gate.
At least, that's my experience. I cannot recall professional Protoss winning vs Zerg on this map either, without some major mistakes on Zergs side. Could somebody please enlighten me, because it's getting really frustrating (as you may have noticed ^_^)
PS I play random, I prefer not to veto maps.
The 3rd on vaani is actually not that hard to defend. you need good building placement and maybe one or two cannons more than usually if there's pressure coming your way.
What has worked best for me is going for the all so standard 3 base blink strategy usually off of this:
CJ herO blink build - on vaani I usually cut the early pressure, since most zergs seem pretty agressive on this map. also, if your macro isn't on spot, I'd recommend going up to 9-11 gates with this attack, because 7 gates are not that much if your focus is all on FFs and blink .
Then, what you need to do on vaani when you are taking your 3rd:
1. while taking your third (7:30-8:00min), scout the zerg with a hallucination for incoming all-ins (3 gasses, low drone count on the 3rd at this time-> warning signs, send a second hallucination to confirm right when the first one disappears)
2. keep your units between your 3rd nexus and your ramp at all time to prevent any run-by attempts.
3. seal your 3rd base off to the left with gateways, so the zerg cannot get in your mineral line from this side. (good spot for a second cannon: right from your left assimilator behind the gateway wall)
4. get your mothership core a bit up front, to give you a heads-up on any roach/speedling attack (but keep it close enough for casting overcharge)
5. if there's aggression coming your way, don't pressure the zerg or move out before +2 and blink are done! only with those upgrades your army is really strong.
6. with your attack you should get +3 attack after the first rounds of warp-ins to prepare for a longer game.
A good plan for your attack is to move your army along the left border of the map towards his 4th location to prevent being surrounded. take a probe with your and plant pylons for reinforcements since your warp prism should go to the pocket natural of the zerg. This way, the zerg either needs to split his units and attention or take massive damage from a mass warp-in in his natural. Either way, you gain an advantage for your main attack!
If you are able to kill his 4th and or good chunks of his army you are in an amazing position even if you don't end the game right there. just be ready to take a 4th and add a templar archive.
With a 3 base blink build, mutas shouldn't be much of a concern anymore!
If you are having trouble executing, post a replay!
best of luck!
edit: typo
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Anytime I try to go Blink they go Muta + lings and I just die.
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Italy12246 Posts
Then your issue is execution, not builds. On paper 3base blink should deal with muta lings very well.
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On June 18 2015 02:03 Teoita wrote:
Then your issue is execution, not builds. On paper 3base blink should deal with muta lings very well.
When I try to move out, he comes in, kills all my workers, then goes back to defend. The Muta flock keeps growing and I can't make any more Stalkers because I'm broke.
Do you have any vods i can look at? Maybe I'm just playing it wrong but this happens EVERY TIME!
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Austria24417 Posts
Sounds like your issue is that you're playing too defensively against it. The power of 3-base blink vs muta is that you'll be in the zerg's face constantly, so if they make mutas it has to be while you're pressuring. In that case you can usually straight up kill them. Or they skip mutas to make units in order to deal with that pressure and then... you don't have to worry about mutas.
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On June 18 2015 04:23 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Sounds like your issue is that you're playing too defensively against it. The power of 3-base blink vs muta is that you'll be in the zerg's face constantly, so if they make mutas it has to be while you're pressuring. In that case you can usually straight up kill them. Or they skip mutas to make units in order to deal with that pressure and then... you don't have to worry about mutas.
Usually I'm leaving my base as he's leaving his with the Muta. In that scenario I just can't win. Should I be moving out earlier?
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EPT
