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On May 14 2015 16:53 shizznit wrote:Alright I'm obviously retarded with this style, one guy took his gold, and MY gold on vaani and I still almost lost. I feel like a gold player doing this style and I really REALLY don't feel comfortable withotu collosi so I've started trying to incorporate them in this sentry stalker style again. http://drop.sc/398890http://drop.sc/398891http://drop.sc/398892I do mini rage at the end of one of the games because I feel that lings > 3 or 4 hydras > 200000000 mutas is a bit brken but what do i know
I looked at the two games on Coda. Didn't bother with Vaani because gold bases (I usually just 8gate people who try and take greedy gold bases).
I feel like there you're letting too much of your frustration seep into your gameplay. Problem isn't that you're retarded with the style (you're not), problem is that you don't have faith in it, and as a result of that you're not really playing the style correctly anymore. It's impossible to help you with how to play a particular style when you're not even playing it in the replays.
So, game 1: You're staying on 7 Gateways with 3 bases. Playing with colossus is fine, but you need 10-12 gateways. Even when your bank start accumulating, you don't chase down the bank. Also, what really helps against mutalisks is to contrinue upgrades, even getting armor. The main issue here is that you're fixated on your intelligent response, and because you're not executing that response perfectly, it completely collapses. An easier solution would be to just max out on upgraded stalkers while you cannon up your third and slowly get storm to defend in case of a basetrade. Spend your bank in stalkers and cannons!!
game 2: You're doing better with the gateways in this game, but you are trying to get storm. So basically you are no longer playing the stalker-sentry style.
I think you're in general too comfortable on being in 100ish low supply. Protoss plays much better when you're chasing the maxed army (and lucky for us we can do it with basically 1 unit). I can't remember the last time a zerg went mutalisks against me, because they always seem threatened by the stalker ball. I understand that 'it's not your style to use all gateway cycles', but truth is that being on a smaller army than necessary is what lets the zerg freely drone and do whatever he likes. If I was pulling stuff out of my butt, someone would have said so already.
EDIT: I realise that low-supply big bank style was good before when Zergs would go swarmhost as it gave you the flexibiltiy to switch into a tech heavy army with like 5 colossus, 5 void rays etc. However, this is no longer the case with the patched swarm host.
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-what is the best way to counter/beat a cannon rush in PvP?
-what is the best response to the hatchery at the rocks on Expedition Lost?
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On May 15 2015 05:11 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
-what is the best way to counter/beat a cannon rush in PvP?
-what is the best response to the hatchery at the rocks on Expedition Lost?
1) There are tons of different ways. It depends on how late you scout it, and how far it is from your nexus. Maybe you should be more specific.
2) Again, be more specific. It depends on your opening. But by my experience staying on 1 base and going immortal sentry all in off of 1 base has worked every time, because you don't lose absolutely anything from the attack and he has a crappy economy if he commits, and his bases are too far from each other to reinforce properly if he builds a bunch of drones.
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On May 15 2015 05:11 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
-what is the best way to counter/beat a cannon rush in PvP?
-what is the best response to the hatchery at the rocks on Expedition Lost?
1) If you see a probe put down a pylon treat it as a 100% cannon rush. Keep a probe following it. Dont be afraid to pull almost all your probes. That being said, dont pull them all for no reason. Attack the first pylon with lets say 3-4 probes and have 1 or 2 probes tailing your opponents worker. Also take a probe or two and search around your base for additional pylons(cannon rushers usually bring 2 probes, one is often just to distract you). Pull additional probes if cannons go down. Make sure that you have 16/18 workers so you can start a zealot and chrono it!after the zealot is out you can start your cyber core and tech assuming no cannons are up. If cannons do get up then chrono more zealots until the rush is held.
Note: some cannon rushes in the past were pretty much impossible to stop since they start from far away on the low ground(yeonsu was one of them i think). In these cases, assuming your cyber core is far enough away and the cannons cant reach your probe line to quickly its also an option to ignore the cannon rush entirely. Go straight for warp gate and take a proxy nexus and transfer all your probes there. You should be able to save up enough money for warp gate, 2 additional gates, a nexus and some gas for stalkers. Then you can start a 2/3 gate counter attack.
2) Everyones died so far I think at kespa level in broadcasted matches. Harstem defended by making 3 cannons at the rocks and forgoing defences at the natural. This was vs snute though. His hatch was kind of far away too.
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1) If you see a probe put down a pylon treat it as a 100% cannon rush. Keep a probe following it.
Funnily enough, I once played against a guy who built a pylon and made me pull tons of probes, then followed it up with a 4 gate.
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Any replays of a good kr protoss doing the stalker/sentry fast 3 base build? Or vods for that matter.
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On May 15 2015 05:11 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
-what is the best way to counter/beat a cannon rush in PvP?
-what is the best response to the hatchery at the rocks on Expedition Lost?
Assuming you're Probe scouting after the gate. you should know it's coming after seeing no expansion at his natural and at both golds.
Then you need to chrono an MS and make a zealot, add gateway as soon as you have the money but keep producing zealot on the gateways (constant production is key)
When you have 3 gate you can add another Gas and make 3 more probe (you need to stop probe at 16 on mineral while building gates zealot)
Chrono wg while doing all that and add a robo as soon as you can after having 3 gate + 2nd gas.
Then chrono an immortal, warp sentries/zealot. A move the guy with the imortal shift clicking the spines.
This should hold it everysingle time. You need to refine it a little bit for it to work everytime (sometime I go auto pilote and add the 2nd gas before the gates and I don't have enough zzzz)
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On May 15 2015 07:38 KingAlphard wrote:Show nested quote +
1) If you see a probe put down a pylon treat it as a 100% cannon rush. Keep a probe following it.
Funnily enough, I once played against a guy who built a pylon and made me pull tons of probes, then followed it up with a 4 gate.
yeah but your scouting probe is still going to his base so even if you react heavily towards the fake cannon rush your gate will still be way ahead of his, and thus warp gate also quite far ahead.
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Such a boring game when you have to defend, defend, defend and defend against terran. And even then bio is too strong. I actually hope sc2 becomes obsolete so we can play a more fun RTS. 
User was temp banned for this post.
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On May 16 2015 05:05 darkness wrote:Such a boring game when you have to defend, defend, defend and defend against terran. And even then bio is too strong. I actually hope sc2 becomes obsolete so we can play a more fun RTS. User was temp banned for this post.
You dont have to. Have you watched many parting games?
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On May 15 2015 07:28 -HuShang- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2015 05:11 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
-what is the best way to counter/beat a cannon rush in PvP?
-what is the best response to the hatchery at the rocks on Expedition Lost? 1) If you see a probe put down a pylon treat it as a 100% cannon rush. Keep a probe following it. Dont be afraid to pull almost all your probes. That being said, dont pull them all for no reason. Attack the first pylon with lets say 3-4 probes and have 1 or 2 probes tailing your opponents worker. Also take a probe or two and search around your base for additional pylons(cannon rushers usually bring 2 probes, one is often just to distract you). Pull additional probes if cannons go down. Make sure that you have 16/18 workers so you can start a zealot and chrono it!after the zealot is out you can start your cyber core and tech assuming no cannons are up. If cannons do get up then chrono more zealots until the rush is held. Note: some cannon rushes in the past were pretty much impossible to stop since they start from far away on the low ground(yeonsu was one of them i think). In these cases, assuming your cyber core is far enough away and the cannons cant reach your probe line to quickly its also an option to ignore the cannon rush entirely. Go straight for warp gate and take a proxy nexus and transfer all your probes there. You should be able to save up enough money for warp gate, 2 additional gates, a nexus and some gas for stalkers. Then you can start a 2/3 gate counter attack. 2) Everyones died so far I think at kespa level in broadcasted matches. Harstem defended by making 3 cannons at the rocks and forgoing defences at the natural. This was vs snute though. His hatch was kind of far away too.
Yeah I usually scout after I put down my Gateway. I'm at the point where I'm only scouting my base and around my ramp for pylons, I rarely scout my opp until I have an Obs/or sentry. But what is the proper response if they already have a pylon finishing? or if a cannon is already started?
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I feel like every terran is doing some kind of 1 base bio push on Vanni (even though drops are so strong on this map), either 4-5 rax or 3 rax stim timing. I know the basics of how to defend it from OP, but what about concrete build variation?
From what I've gathered from my many humiliating defeats, you always gotta msc scout on this map (it's less risky because you're just checking for the natural), and if I confirm no nat I put down a stargate, 2 more gates and a forge, but I'm really not convinced by that route.
I go stargate because immortals are bad vs mostly marines armies, blink would come too late and I obviously don't like having no tech vs a terran. I also allow myself 2-3 cannons because if you can hold the push the game is done. In ideal scenarios I manage to ff the terran in half and fight half his army with cannons and gateway units, and finish him off with something like 3 oracles when the marine count is low, but in practice my micro is so horrible it's a very hard situation. Any advice on this type of micro, builds or reactions would be most welcome.
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@vengefultree
the basic defense against a 1 base terran who goes bio is to simply have more units out. Once you identify you are facing a 1 base bio play, you cut probes for a short while to go up to 3 gates and then a robo. Don't let your gateway(s) go idle pre WG! Constantly train units (chronoboost!) till WG is done and then immediatley warp in (you want at least 2 sentries, to either ff the Terran out or prevent him from kiting, depending on the situation).
From the robo, you should go immortal first. immortals add a lot of punsh to your composition. Even if he goes heavy on marines, having an immortal with your units is still amazing. Moreover, the robo allows you to transition straight to colossus after you hold.
Imo, SG/cannons isn't an ideal response since oracles don't provide you with steady DPS and are focused down too easily especially when facing stim. Cannons can be circumvented and lose their value once the attack ended.
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tar basically explained how you deal with 1 base T bio play : 3 gates constantly producing and a robo producing immortals. Don't be afraid to have more sentries than usual to cut the T army and stay very defensive. Use your overcharges wisely and once you stabilize you should just outproduce him. From there you can transition into blink or colossi and it should be an easy win. Squeezing out a warp prism works wonders too.
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@KingAlphard
Hey man... just wanted to drop in and say THANK YOU for your suggestions for my PvZ. When I go skytoss, late game, as you have suggested I go Tempest (few VRs mixed in) + HTs + Archons.... so far my win rate is pretty high. I never used the tempest as much as now but they definitely work for me. Even when Z goes for muta switch, I'm prepared for that because they don't have the gas (at the very most... Z only go up to 4 bases) to mass muta switch.
Most of my PvZs finishes not because I kill the Z (it's hard since my units are so slow) but because they run out of resources or of zealot runbys...
PvZ sitting at 65% winrate. It went up from 60 to 65% .... hehe not too bad.
If I could only improve my PvT....... I'm not an oracle guy or blink all in or DT guy... I mostly macro up. Does this put me behind vs a T because they control the mid game???
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Thanks a lot tar and Wire, that makes a lot more sense than my initial ideas
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On May 17 2015 00:05 PiPiGranDe wrote:
@KingAlphard
Hey man... just wanted to drop in and say THANK YOU for your suggestions for my PvZ. When I go skytoss, late game, as you have suggested I go Tempest (few VRs mixed in) + HTs + Archons.... so far my win rate is pretty high. I never used the tempest as much as now but they definitely work for me. Even when Z goes for muta switch, I'm prepared for that because they don't have the gas (at the very most... Z only go up to 4 bases) to mass muta switch.
Most of my PvZs finishes not because I kill the Z (it's hard since my units are so slow) but because they run out of resources or of zealot runbys...
PvZ sitting at 65% winrate. It went up from 60 to 65% .... hehe not too bad.
If I could only improve my PvT....... I'm not an oracle guy or blink all in or DT guy... I mostly macro up. Does this put me behind vs a T because they control the mid game???
You're welcome. Now I don't know how you play, but winning in lategame vs zerg is pretty normal. Just make sure you abuse tempests's range and never directly engage into the zerg (rather let him engage you outside creep/spores range) and you should be fine against any composition.
Playing robo against terran is really solid, it doesn't put you behind, but knowing more playstyles gives you an edge in bo3+ series or when you're playing multiple times against the same opponent (which shouldn't happen often below high masters/gm).
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On May 16 2015 11:14 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
p. If cannons do get up then chrono more zealots until the rush is held.
Yeah I usually scout after I put down my Gateway. I'm at the point where I'm only scouting my base and around my ramp for pylons, I rarely scout my opp until I have an Obs/or sentry. But what is the proper response if they already have a pylon finishing? or if a cannon is already started?
GG ;p. If he gets a cannon up and you cant get more than 3 probes on it right away the game is over unless its really far away. If the pylon is just starting just try to block cannons locations with probes.
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On May 17 2015 00:05 PiPiGranDe wrote:
If I could only improve my PvT....... I'm not an oracle guy or blink all in or DT guy... I mostly macro up. Does this put me behind vs a T because they control the mid game???
No, it's fine. The only problem with robo is you can't punish opponents very well. You're never going to play a game where he messes up his oracle defence and you get a free win. Or he forgets a turret and dts kill a ton of scvs. You'll have to outplay your opponent every game. Though, its still a strong style if you can do it properly. Maybe expand on what problems you're facing in pvt.
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My problem in PvT is... I die mid game. How? Mostly because T can take a 3rd while pressuring me. By the time I can secure a third... i think i'm very behind. Drops is what kills me. I make about 5-7 obs per game but because my army is split... sometimes I don't have enough time to regroup and T engages after killing obs.
Btw... What's the best way to punish someone going cc first into 1-2-3 rax into mine + drops? blink all in??
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EPT
