EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 347
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
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PiPiGranDe
Canada70 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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PiPiGranDe
Canada70 Posts
On May 10 2015 01:34 Teoita wrote: You misunderstood me - anything that goes zealot/templar in any way shape or form is terribly worse than going colossus because widow mines brutally hard counter your core gateway army. It really, really isn't worth going for it. *cries* .... I guess I agree with you. My PvT is sucking so much. I can't believe it's below 50%... lol Worst mu everrrrr ... and I don't seem to be getting any better. *cries some more* | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On May 10 2015 00:18 PiPiGranDe wrote: KingAlphard... Is your goal to make VRs mid game and include Tempest for late game? As you lose your VRs, you replace them with Tempests? So air units, is mostly tempests late late game? How do tempests do against mass mutas/corruptors? Do you rely on storm to help with fight this? If Z don't go SH.. do you find a need to incorporate colossi vs ground army? Yes, yes, and yes. If I can't trade them in engagements, I often suicide my void rays going for "runbys" to snipe tech structures/bases. When I feel really fancy, I go for the void ray runby in the main and I also drop some high templars with a prism to support them. With the composition I said, which includes hts and archons, you can't be engaged with muta corruptor. Storms help. Now that locusts fly, I don't see any reason to build colossi in the lategame. Archons are better I would say. SH are also more supply expensive so they aren't that great anymore in a maxed out army. | ||
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-HuShang-
Canada393 Posts
On May 10 2015 01:34 Teoita wrote: You misunderstood me - anything that goes zealot/templar in any way shape or form is terribly worse than going colossus because widow mines brutally hard counter your core gateway army. It really, really isn't worth going for it. I 100% agree and then parting goes templar in the first game vs gumiho lol, what a guy x'D. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15920 Posts
On May 10 2015 06:12 Teoita wrote: And he gets destroyed by mines, hence proving my point. no reason not to play it on ladder though. I personally have more success with it than with collossus builds. On the pro level I agree; collossus builds are much better. But that's not a reason to discourage every protoss player who asks for advice by saying templar builds are horrible and should never be done. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
It's also worth mentioning that while this may not have been full mech per se, Desrow recommends going templar against mech since colossi weaken your skytoss transition in the late game (vikings) and prevents you from making immortals constantly. On top of that, archons can used to tank some of the damage while your immortals get in range of the tanks. | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On May 10 2015 06:47 Charoisaur wrote: no reason not to play it on ladder though. I personally have more success with it than with collossus builds. On the pro level I agree; collossus builds are much better. But that's not a reason to discourage every protoss player who asks for advice by saying templar builds are horrible and should never be done. Terran players don't build widow mines against you? By the way, I think PartinG went templars first because he saw tanks and at that point he was certain that the (only) factory had a tech lab attached on it. But then after 5-6 tanks Gumiho stopped and switched to double widow mine production. | ||
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playa
United States1284 Posts
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phfantunes
Brazil170 Posts
Expanding seems a huge risk for only 75 minerals investment and if I just throw down extra gates my tech is still quite delayed. Thanks in advance. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15920 Posts
On May 10 2015 06:53 KingAlphard wrote: Terran players don't build widow mines against you? By the way, I think PartinG went templars first because he saw tanks and at that point he was certain that the (only) factory had a tech lab attached on it. But then after 5-6 tanks Gumiho stopped and switched to double widow mine production. They do but I can deal with them by spltting my army or sending single zealots in first. Again, my protoss is only at diamond level and at a higher level it's probably not possible but if I can do it at my level it probably works for 90% of the player base too. | ||
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insitelol
845 Posts
On May 10 2015 14:50 phfantunes wrote: I'm just a platinum player, but in PvP what's the correct response if the opponent steals one of my gases? Expanding seems a huge risk for only 75 minerals investment and if I just throw down extra gates my tech is still quite delayed. Thanks in advance. He will most likely go for SG himself. So the best response is to build a zealot asap to destroy the assimilator. Also skip MC and build stalkers. Stealing a single gas is overall is a meh idea. | ||
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shizznit
23 Posts
Like practically everyone, once themine got buffed I started going collos and learned to hate the unit I said screw it and went back to templar openings. Sure they make mines but you gotta play it like zvt imo, split your zlots off or send them in a few at a time to set them off if you HAVE too but to me.. the optimal way is getting a couple of immortals to snipe them off. He'll stim forward a few units to get the immortals to back off which is when you storm if need be. If he doesn't send enough forward then the immortals kill the units + the mines lol.. if he sends too many units forward then he gets stormed Just a micro battle like anything really. I got sick and tired of getting doom dropped which is what I hate about collosi so I make it work as best I can. That warp prism and dts for back stabs and buying time are crucial | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
Storms aren't THAT good against small groups of bio either. Ok so the problem with widow mines is that even if you sacrifice a unit, a zealot is 100 minerals, it's not as good as sacrificing a ling for it like in ZvT. Plus observers are much more slow and squishy compared to overseers, so it's very common for the terran player to scan and kill the observer. What the terran does is he stims forward some marauders with concussive, draws the zealots into the mines but with concussive shells they get hit before they can reach the bio. Chargelots aren't doing absolutely anything in engagements for the most part. Immortals aren't that great against widow mines because as you said he will just send a couple of units (with concussive shells) to snipe them off, here you storm but against 5-6 bio units (enough to kill an immortal quickly) storm is really ineffective. They just don't have enough range to do that. Again if you get to the point where you bank 150+ energy on 7-8 high templars then you're in good shape to survive, as long as you're not too much behind in economy/army supply, but you should either die before that or the terran is ready to attack with ghosts. It would be nice if you posted some replays. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Mines completely change both those mechanics. Bringing 1-2 mines with a drop completely destroys any zealot warp in or defense, and now it's the Protoss that can't possibly micro and split in two places at once. Plus in direct fights (say attacking a third base), it's now the terran that can easily poke back and forth picking off units, and have a massive advantage if the protoss army charges into him. As Alphard said, you can't just send in one zealots to trigger everything like you would with a ling or two because a zealot is slower, more expensive, and more easily slowed by marauders. I defended templar openings as still viable during the hellbat days, but mines really, really nullify that build. You might win sometimes on ladder because it's a best of one format where you can catch people off guard with dumb shit, but you shouldnt confuse whatever success you have with a style actually being viable. The hard truth is, you would win just as much if not more with colossus builds. | ||
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shizznit
23 Posts
playa opens with dts and immortals every pvt and has a 67% win rate in top 20 GM, thoughts? | ||
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Xaeldaren
Ireland588 Posts
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5973980 http://ggtracker.com/matches/5973979 http://ggtracker.com/matches/5973978 I get these massive leads then flush them down the toilet because I can't fight to save my life. It's so depressing. | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
I don't understand why you refused to get immortals against someone massing roaches and lings. Upon scouting roaches you should immediately start constant immortal production. In the end you had won the game but you over committed inside creep in an open space when you absolutely didn't have to, I think you understand why that went wrong. Game 2: Bad macro again. With this build you should have 66 probes at 10:00 but you only have 55. That's a pretty big difference. You played too passive, once your 3 base production kicks in with this build you have to attack, especially if your opponent plays extremely greedy like that (85 drones with no units lol). Not only that but you also need to pressure with sentries right after you secured your third if you don't see an attack coming. Obviously, macroing better makes your attacks much stronger. You can still get templar archives behind that since it's not that expensive. At 17:00 you step deep inside creep with your army in a terrible position, are you crazy? I can see trying to snipe the 4th and recalling back (still risky considering he had a good creep spread), but you commited even more trying to kill the drones. Game 3: Once again, you get supply blocked, you don't chronoboost probes properly, etc. It's ok to cut probes when you see an attack coming but then you need to resume it immediately once you hold (you really didn't in this game). In general. Practice more your build, you need to reach 3 base saturation more quickly. Your armies are always way too small in the midgame because of your macro mistakes in the early game. Don't get too greedy trying to kill your opponent. Stepping inside creep is really risky because you can easily get surrounded. Always make sure you have a mothership core on top of your army with enough energy for recall. Keep your army united so that you can use forcefields effectively. | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
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