EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 242
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
| ||
|
[MD]Frostbite
Canada292 Posts
http://imgur.com/RAKRkuQ | ||
|
aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
On March 06 2014 10:09 [MD]Frostbite wrote: Help me, I have forgotten how to PvZ http://imgur.com/RAKRkuQ That's no way to seriously ask for help. At least look at 3 - 5 of your recent and typical PvZ games, note problems you have in these games and generally, and then post your thoughts and the replays so that fellow Protoss can help. | ||
|
[MD]Frostbite
Canada292 Posts
On March 06 2014 11:14 aZealot wrote: That's no way to seriously ask for help. At least look at 3 - 5 of your recent and typical PvZ games, note problems you have in these games and generally, and then post your thoughts and the replays so that fellow Protoss can help. Excuse me, I was on tilt after going 0-3 to zergs during my play time My problem is opening. I go for FFE into stargate. 3 pheonix to harass while I tech up to collosus. Recently tgis has been falling flat on its face time and time again. Also I have no idea how to 1 gate expand propely which is why I don't do it. Sometimes I mix in a dt rush into chargelot-archon all-in but it also has not been working recently. So any new openers with early pressure to harass a Zergs third would be wonderful. At my peak I was able to pull off stargate w/ 3 pheonix with a ~7:45ish 4 zealot + MSC attack on the third while teching to colossus. Can't anymore, don't have good enough mechanics as of now. I've tried doing soul trains but its kinda boring although FF micro is fun. TL;DR I'm bad at early game, can I haz builds that pressure the zergs third please? | ||
|
aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
You sound a way better player than me. So, I doubt I can assist even if I always 1 Gate FE vs Z. But, consider posting a replay or two. It will help. Cheers. Edit/ Check out Nony's stream for a high level player who always Gate FE vs Z: http://www.twitch.tv/nony/profile/pastBroadcasts | ||
|
city42
1656 Posts
On March 06 2014 13:29 [MD]Frostbite wrote: Excuse me, I was on tilt after going 0-3 to zergs during my play time My problem is opening. I go for FFE into stargate. 3 pheonix to harass while I tech up to collosus. Recently tgis has been falling flat on its face time and time again. Also I have no idea how to 1 gate expand propely which is why I don't do it. Sometimes I mix in a dt rush into chargelot-archon all-in but it also has not been working recently. So any new openers with early pressure to harass a Zergs third would be wonderful. At my peak I was able to pull off stargate w/ 3 pheonix with a ~7:45ish 4 zealot + MSC attack on the third while teching to colossus. Can't anymore, don't have good enough mechanics as of now. I've tried doing soul trains but its kinda boring although FF micro is fun. TL;DR I'm bad at early game, can I haz builds that pressure the zergs third please? It might be a good idea to learn the long-time staple of PvZ, which is the FFE --> stargate --> 5 phoenixes --> robo + 3 gates --> colossi and 3rd base strategy. You won't specifically pressure the third base with it, but clearing overlords and hunting drones and queens is solid harass for a macro build. The approximate build order is in the giant PvZ guide (it's Hero's version). Try it over and over against the AI until you feel comfortable with it mechanics-wise. I find that Zest executes it particularly well, so he's a good candidate to learn from. Here's a recent game of his: A few notes: -Make sure you know the ins and outs of opening FFE before you continue learning the actual build. -The time to make the robo and 3 gates is when both bases have 16 probes on minerals. At that point you should temporarily cut probes to make the buildings. -The build is inherently safe, but if your phoenixes see an early roach warren, you can play it extra safe and sneak in 2 more gates and an immortal before the third nexus. -Scouting is your friend. The key to making this strategy work is to use phoenix + halluc scouts to stay on top of what the zerg is doing. The game linked above illustrates this point very well (Zest spots the muta switch almost immediately with a halluc scout). If you're absolutely intent on pressuring the zerg's third base, the gateway expand into 4 gate pressure (made famous by San) is the most common way to do that. I don't know if there's a write-up on it, but San used it in virtually every PvZ at IEM Singapore, and those replays were released to the public. | ||
|
Corazon
United States3230 Posts
On February 26 2014 07:38 Corazon wrote: I'm not entirely sure what matchup you are looking for specifically, but I know one for PvZ and one for PvT. PvZ - 3 gateway attack @7:00 Quick Note: This is a build I didn't look for a build order before trying. I've done it at least 100 times to varying degrees of success, but this probably is not exactly what a pro would do (I was a high diamond player). 1 gate expansion (Take the probe that made the expansion and have it mine from natural one time and then rally it to your wall) MSC @100 cyber Warp Gate Pylon Zealot 2x Gate after the pylon finishes (to make a wall) @100% Zealot: Stalker @19 probes on minerals at main: 2nd gas @100% Stalker: move out with Zealot, Stalker, MSC, and probe (if you don't have a proxy pylon yet) Sentry Stargate After Sentry finishes, turn gates into warp gates Warp in 3 zealots (or 2 zealots and 1 stalker, whatever your preference is) - This should be at 7:00 3rd gas at natural Pylon (Don't forget or you will be supply blocked) When your SG finishes, make a void ray and take a third off of the Void Ray. At the same time as your third, make a twilight council and a forge. Then, make a templar archives and get storm. Keep making Void Rays, chargelots, and Templars. Make sure you constantly use hallucinations (you want about 5 sentries) in order to scout if the Zerg is going Roach/Hydra, Muta, or SH. Make sure your infrastructure counters what the Zerg is doing. If you are able to kill the third (or force a cancel) with the 3 gate attack, you are in a decent position. Even if you don't, you should be constantly chronoboosting workers at home, so you will be at worst even with the Zerg on economy. Replay: http://www.ggtracker.com/matches/4714263 one of my replays, but I think it should be sufficient to help you with the build. You just need to practice it enough times until the build becomes second nature. Lastly, if you want to put on more pressure, you can add a 4th gate, chronoboost your cyber core once, and skip taking your second gas. This push hits at around 6:30 with 5 zealots and a stalker. This attack is a bit more all-in but has the power to kill a Zerg. This was my impromptu guide on how to gateway expand in PvZ. | ||
|
Extenz
Italy822 Posts
| ||
|
vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On March 06 2014 15:25 city42 wrote: It might be a good idea to learn the long-time staple of PvZ, which is the FFE --> stargate --> 5 phoenixes --> robo + 3 gates --> colossi and 3rd base strategy. You won't specifically pressure the third base with it, but clearing overlords and hunting drones and queens is solid harass for a macro build. The approximate build order is in the giant PvZ guide (it's Hero's version). I wrote down Rain's FFE stargate benchmarks at the beginning of last year. This build goes stargate --> gates --> robo rather than stargate --> robo --> gates, but changing the order of the robo and gates is no problem. The important thing is that I compared this build to what the guide says, and that MC build is fairly outdated. And HerO's build is also weird by today's standards. I've included the 2 vods on which I based these benchmarks. I'd like to highlight the stargate and gas timings. Compare them to MC's build... doesn't almost everything seem to be faster with Rain's build? Now, HerO's build from the guide delays your 3rd/4th geysers even more, which nobody does nowadays. I'll keep it short - avoid FFE stargate benchmarks from the PvZ guide, they're outdated. Unless you want to do some sort of zealot stalker poke instead of getting a zealot + sentries, HerO's build has pretty slow benchmarks too. What Zest did is pretty similar to my notes, which is also better than builds from the PvZ guide ofc - he delayed his robo for 30 seconds or so, but got +1 attack before his first sentry. He could have started his gateways about 15 seconds earlier or so with just a slightly delayed robo, but that's not a big deal. Rain-------------------------------MC | 5:30 | Stargate.........| 6:00 | Stargate | 5:45 | 3rd/4th gas.....| 6:20 | 3rd/4th gas | 7:00 | gates.............| 7:50 | gates | 7:40 | robo...............| 8:35 | robo | 8:00 | +1 atk............| 5:00 | +1 atk | 8:15 | msc............... *wol = no msc* | 8:45 | robo bay.........| 9:40+ | robo bay | 9:20-9:40 | twilight....| ??? | twilight | 9:20-9:40 | third........| 10:10+ | third PvZ Stargate - old vods from proleague Rain vs Rare + Show Spoiler + Parting vs Hydra + Show Spoiler + | ||
|
city42
1656 Posts
On March 07 2014 03:17 vhapter wrote: I wrote down Rain's FFE stargate benchmarks at the beginning of last year. This build goes stargate --> gates --> robo rather than stargate --> robo --> gates, but changing the order of the robo and gates is no problem. The important thing is that I compared this build to what the guide says, and that MC build is fairly outdated. And HerO's build is also weird by today's standards. I've included the 2 vods on which I based these benchmarks. I'd like to highlight the stargate and gas timings. Compare them to MC's build... doesn't almost everything seem to be faster with Rain's build? Now, HerO's build from the guide delays your 3rd/4th geysers even more, which nobody does nowadays. I'll keep it short - avoid FFE stargate benchmarks from the PvZ guide, they're outdated. Unless you want to do some sort of zealot stalker poke instead of getting a zealot + sentries, HerO's build has pretty slow benchmarks too. What Zest did is pretty similar to my notes, which is also better than builds from the PvZ guide ofc - he delayed his robo for 30 seconds or so, but got +1 attack before his first sentry. He could have started his gateways about 15 seconds earlier or so with just a slightly delayed robo, but that's not a big deal. Rain-------------------------------MC | 5:30 | Stargate.........| 6:00 | Stargate | 5:45 | 3rd/4th gas.....| 6:20 | 3rd/4th gas | 7:00 | gates.............| 7:50 | gates | 7:40 | robo...............| 8:35 | robo | 8:00 | +1 atk............| 5:00 | +1 atk | 8:15 | msc............... *wol = no msc* | 8:45 | robo bay.........| 9:40+ | robo bay | 9:20-9:40 | twilight....| ??? | twilight | 9:20-9:40 | third........| 10:10+ | third PvZ Stargate - old vods from proleague Rain vs Rare + Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhxetMiRiSk Parting vs Hydra + Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz7F2TsRgF4 You are totally correct! I was going to mention Zest's build being more efficient than the ones in the guide, but I didn't want to cause too much confusion. With a proper FFE opening, you should be able to have the gates and robo started by 7:45, and certainly by 8:00 (this assumes proper mechanics, of course). In my opinion robo before gates is ideal these days because some zergs skip the roach warren and go straight for hydra den when they see the stargate/phoenixes. You'll want colossi out as quickly as possible against that, and the earlier gates generally don't offer much advantage. | ||
|
aldochillbro
187 Posts
| ||
|
kuruptt
Canada168 Posts
On March 07 2014 14:50 aldochillbro wrote: is going voidray chargelot templar still viable with the patch or are hydras too good? I might be done with the game for good either way cuz of the hydra buff. I feel so restricted when playing pvz that it isn't even fun to play. I would also want to know this. I am seeing most pros that go stargate usually add a robo and pump out collosus and void rays. They don't even research charge or blink when going this style until very late. What do you guys think? It works pretty well against hydras IMO | ||
|
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
| ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On March 07 2014 14:50 aldochillbro wrote: is going voidray chargelot templar still viable with the patch or are hydras too good? I might be done with the game for good either way cuz of the hydra buff. I feel so restricted when playing pvz that it isn't even fun to play. In the words of PiG: "Hydras are better for timings [and defending timings], but still have the same weakness. It's a good change." Simply put, Protosses just need to curb their greed some and voidray/chargelot/templar should still work fine. The map pool right now also allows Protoss to defend their 3rd bases fairly easily. On March 07 2014 18:48 kuruptt wrote: I would also want to know this. I am seeing most pros that go stargate usually add a robo and pump out collosus and void rays. They don't even research charge or blink when going this style until very late. What do you guys think? It works pretty well against hydras IMO Colossus/voidray is very greedy and more likely to die to roach/hydra timings. However, as it is, most of the maps do not favor lair busts, so it's a little easier to get away with being greedy and relying on 3-4 forcefields for defense. This may change when we have more maps in the map pool like Frost or Polar Night. | ||
|
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
| ||
|
vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On March 07 2014 18:48 kuruptt wrote: I would also want to know this. I am seeing most pros that go stargate usually add a robo and pump out collosus and void rays. They don't even research charge or blink when going this style until very late. What do you guys think? It works pretty well against hydras IMO I haven't played this style much, but I find it very interesting. If you want to do this, one of your biggest concerns should be scouting the zerg at about 10 minutes or so. It's important to know if he's doing a fast tech to hive, because viper timings can be very deadly if you don't have feedback. That being said, you can build a very powerful deathball in the late game if you keep your units alive. | ||
|
DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
PvT is my worst matchup (I know, how is this possible, blah blah....) so I started going Phoenix Colossus again and it's working really well  confuses the crap out of people on ladder and they have no idea how to deal with it.Is there a good build order for it somewhere? I'm sure that there's a more efficient version than what I'm doing currently. Which is something like: 13 gate, 15 double gas with 3 on each, 1 zealot after cyber, 1 stalker and MsC then Nexus Then add Stargate and second gateway then oracle and robo. I use oracle to harass/revelation while getting my colossus. | ||
|
Horuku
United States405 Posts
On March 08 2014 05:00 DinoMight wrote: Hello all! PvT is my worst matchup (I know, how is this possible, blah blah....) so I started going Phoenix Colossus again and it's working really well confuses the crap out of people on ladder and they have no idea how to deal with it.Is there a good build order for it somewhere? I'm sure that there's a more efficient version than what I'm doing currently. Which is something like: 13 gate, 15 double gas with 3 on each, 1 zealot after cyber, 1 stalker and MsC then Nexus Then add Stargate and second gateway then oracle and robo. I use oracle to harass/revelation while getting my colossus. http://imbabuilds.com/hots-protoss/hots-pvt/pvt-jims-phoenix-colossus-build/ | ||
|
DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On March 08 2014 05:04 Horuku wrote: http://imbabuilds.com/hots-protoss/hots-pvt/pvt-jims-phoenix-colossus-build/ TY! This is close to how I do it actually | ||
|
HelpMeGetBetter
United States764 Posts
 | ||
| ||
