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On March 08 2014 05:00 DinoMight wrote: Hello all!
PvT is my worst matchup (I know, how is this possible, blah blah....) so I started going Phoenix Colossus again and it's working really well confuses the crap out of people on ladder and they have no idea how to deal with it.
Is there a good build order for it somewhere? I'm sure that there's a more efficient version than what I'm doing currently. Which is something like:
13 gate, 15 double gas with 3 on each, 1 zealot after cyber, 1 stalker and MsC then Nexus Then add Stargate and second gateway then oracle and robo.
I use oracle to harass/revelation while getting my colossus.
What do you do specifically?
One oracle into like 5-6 phoenix while directly teching to colossus with one forge for upgrades is what I do. I just kinda figured it out as I went and didn't really follow any specific build orders. It is so much fun to play and surprisingly good. If you don't take too much damage early you can even get a colossus or two out in time for the usually 10-11 minute stuff. That combined with the phoenixes killing the medivacs puts you in such a good position. I've done this style pretty much since last summer and it has continually been quite okay. It shuts down drop styles so well if you are active with map vision.
On March 07 2014 14:50 aldochillbro wrote: is going voidray chargelot templar still viable with the patch or are hydras too good? I might be done with the game for good either way cuz of the hydra buff. I feel so restricted when playing pvz that it isn't even fun to play.
In the words of PiG: "Hydras are better for timings [and defending timings], but still have the same weakness. It's a good change." Simply put, Protosses just need to curb their greed some and voidray/chargelot/templar should still work fine. The map pool right now also allows Protoss to defend their 3rd bases fairly easily.
On March 07 2014 14:50 aldochillbro wrote: is going voidray chargelot templar still viable with the patch or are hydras too good? I might be done with the game for good either way cuz of the hydra buff. I feel so restricted when playing pvz that it isn't even fun to play.
I would also want to know this. I am seeing most pros that go stargate usually add a robo and pump out collosus and void rays. They don't even research charge or blink when going this style until very late. What do you guys think? It works pretty well against hydras IMO
Colossus/voidray is very greedy and more likely to die to roach/hydra timings. However, as it is, most of the maps do not favor lair busts, so it's a little easier to get away with being greedy and relying on 3-4 forcefields for defense. This may change when we have more maps in the map pool like Frost or Polar Night.
On March 07 2014 14:50 aldochillbro wrote: is going voidray chargelot templar still viable with the patch or are hydras too good? I might be done with the game for good either way cuz of the hydra buff. I feel so restricted when playing pvz that it isn't even fun to play.
In the words of PiG: "Hydras are better for timings [and defending timings], but still have the same weakness. It's a good change." Simply put, Protosses just need to curb their greed some and voidray/chargelot/templar should still work fine. The map pool right now also allows Protoss to defend their 3rd bases fairly easily.
On March 07 2014 18:48 kuruptt wrote:
On March 07 2014 14:50 aldochillbro wrote: is going voidray chargelot templar still viable with the patch or are hydras too good? I might be done with the game for good either way cuz of the hydra buff. I feel so restricted when playing pvz that it isn't even fun to play.
I would also want to know this. I am seeing most pros that go stargate usually add a robo and pump out collosus and void rays. They don't even research charge or blink when going this style until very late. What do you guys think? It works pretty well against hydras IMO
Colossus/voidray is very greedy and more likely to die to roach/hydra timings. However, as it is, most of the maps do not favor lair busts, so it's a little easier to get away with being greedy and relying on 3-4 forcefields for defense. This may change when we have more maps in the map pool like Frost or Polar Night.
What maps did you veto?
I personally try not to veto maps and just learn to play on all of them. But for the most part, almost all of the current maps are Protoss-friendly except for maybe Polar Night and Daedalus. Even then, though, fast 2-base allins are quite powerful on both maps due to the incredibly short rush distance.
On March 09 2014 11:18 HelpMeGetBetter wrote: Why am I the only Protoss in the world who has problems vs Terren.....
You're not the only one, same here TT
I just dont know what to scout for...
In PvZ it's pretty obvious, like if he made a bunch of lings I know he doesn't have as many drones (because of larva mechanic), which means I have a pretty good lead in eco, also if you see a spire for example, you know there are going to be mutas so you get phoenixes etc. You can make really easy reads on zerg.
But when playing against terran, I have just NO idea what to look for when scouting. One more rax? Two reactors and a tech lab? It doesn't mean anything to me.
How do I react to different terran builds I guess is what I'm wondering, because I just don't understand terran at all.
Also, does anyone have some replays of top tier korean protosses going colossus blink stalker opener which is really common lately? Might be able to learn something from that.
Check out Nony's analysis of the IEM games, they are on his twitch channel. He went through literally every Protoss game at that tournament. Tons of good stuff in there.
In general, the basic things you look for are: a) early game: 3rax into fast medivac vs mine drop. If he goes mine drop his medivac timing is delayed by about 90 seconds. b) mid game: 3rax into cc into 5rax vs 3rax into 5rax into 3rd cc: the first one means he will play more passively, the second that there's a lot of aggression coming your way (which means you can take your third more slowly).
Other than that, it's more about scouting his army location and movement than his build.
And i disagree with scouting zergs, sometimes it feels fcking impossible to know what they are trying to do T_T
Completely agree on the difficulty to scout zerg, i can't make sense of it either.
Lots of lings don't necessarily mean mutas anymore, he could go fast ultras, or mass swarm host, all of which require an entirely different composition. The information you can get before losing map control (ie when he has ling speed) is not relevant in that regard.
The only source of information is the hallucinations, but i usually can scout only half of his base before it gets killed, or expires.
Another possibility is the observer, but : - wastes production time on the robo - takes forever to reach his base - gets killed instantly by spores or queens/overseers
This is very annoying. Sometimes i find myself banking tons of ressources in the midgame because i don't want to commit to any tech before i know wtf he is doing !
On March 10 2014 21:03 Tharkun wrote: Completely agree on the difficulty to scout zerg, i can't make sense of it either.
Lots of lings don't necessarily mean mutas anymore, he could go fast ultras, or mass swarm host, all of which require an entirely different composition. The information you can get before losing map control (ie when he has ling speed) is not relevant in that regard.
The only source of information is the hallucinations, but i usually can scout only half of his base before it gets killed, or expires.
Another possibility is the observer, but : - wastes production time on the robo - takes forever to reach his base - gets killed instantly by spores or queens/overseers
This is very annoying. Sometimes i find myself banking tons of ressources in the midgame because i don't want to commit to any tech before i know wtf he is doing !
Well, it sounds like hallucination buff would be a good idea to help PvZ then. Slight HP increase or longer hallucinations. It shouldn't be game breaking as well.
Hello, guys. I am a Terran player, but I read the P and Z threads to learn a thing or two about how other races handle T aggression.
After the patch I noticed that gas first Marine, Mine, Medivac timing has become really strong in TvP. (The one where you drop marines + mines between the protoss natural and main) Last night's game between TY and Super pretty much cemented my thoughts and now it is all I plan on doing in TvP.
I would like to know how you guys deal with such a build? It was very popular back in mid 2013, when Taeja was doing it to every Protoss in every 4 player map and winning off it.
I'm sorry for coming here, I just haven't found a game where this build loses, and I want to be ready for when something goes wrong!
Few things to add: It seems strong even when it get scouted in 2 player maps. Leaves Terran with oracle defense + safe enough to take second and macro to 3-5 raxes.
The only thing I see hard countering this build is rushing DTs. Are DT openings something protoss can do safely ?
On March 10 2014 20:11 Teoita wrote: Check out Nony's analysis of the IEM games, they are on his twitch channel. He went through literally every Protoss game at that tournament. Tons of good stuff in there.
In general, the basic things you look for are: a) early game: 3rax into fast medivac vs mine drop. If he goes mine drop his medivac timing is delayed by about 90 seconds. b) mid game: 3rax into cc into 5rax vs 3rax into 5rax into 3rd cc: the first one means he will play more passively, the second that there's a lot of aggression coming your way (which means you can take your third more slowly).
Other than that, it's more about scouting his army location and movement than his build.
And i disagree with scouting zergs, sometimes it feels fcking impossible to know what they are trying to do T_T
It's even worse when they just get every tech and don't have a huge army, so you just don't know what they're about to build. So then you have to try to go a middle of the road, and might just get blindsided by 30 mutalisks.
@KingKayzz Usually you can stop this build if you probe scout correctly. It is really easy to hold if you can get a robo and 3 gates out at a decent time. If you go in and scout the fact that it was a gas first (more than 50 gas mined by the time rax finishes), you can deduce that it is an aggression build.
It's usually down to scouting. This build is a risk (obv because it delays expansion for a really long time and needs to do damage) but it can outright win you the game if your opponent is not prepared for it.
On March 10 2014 21:03 Tharkun wrote: Completely agree on the difficulty to scout zerg, i can't make sense of it either.
Lots of lings don't necessarily mean mutas anymore, he could go fast ultras, or mass swarm host, all of which require an entirely different composition. The information you can get before losing map control (ie when he has ling speed) is not relevant in that regard.
The only source of information is the hallucinations, but i usually can scout only half of his base before it gets killed, or expires.
Another possibility is the observer, but : - wastes production time on the robo - takes forever to reach his base - gets killed instantly by spores or queens/overseers
This is very annoying. Sometimes i find myself banking tons of ressources in the midgame because i don't want to commit to any tech before i know wtf he is doing !
Well, it sounds like hallucination buff would be a good idea to help PvZ then. Slight HP increase or longer hallucinations. It shouldn't be game breaking as well.
I think hallucinations are fine. During the midgame you just have to send 2-3 of them to make sure you scout everything. Of course oberservers suck at scouting.
On March 11 2014 01:19 KingKayzz wrote: Hello, guys. I am a Terran player, but I read the P and Z threads to learn a thing or two about how other races handle T aggression.
After the patch I noticed that gas first Marine, Mine, Medivac timing has become really strong in TvP. (The one where you drop marines + mines between the protoss natural and main) Last night's game between TY and Super pretty much cemented my thoughts and now it is all I plan on doing in TvP.
I would like to know how you guys deal with such a build? It was very popular back in mid 2013, when Taeja was doing it to every Protoss in every 4 player map and winning off it.
I'm sorry for coming here, I just haven't found a game where this build loses, and I want to be ready for when something goes wrong!
Few things to add: It seems strong even when it get scouted in 2 player maps. Leaves Terran with oracle defense + safe enough to take second and macro to 3-5 raxes.
The only thing I see hard countering this build is rushing DTs. Are DT openings something protoss can do safely ?
A safe expand build like the Rain build (1 gate expand into robo + forge and cannons in mineral lines if needed) holds this type of pressure with no problem and gets a big lead, if played correctly it takes no damage at all.
Alternatively, a proxy 10 gate rush from protoss will just kill you.
On March 08 2014 05:00 DinoMight wrote: Hello all!
PvT is my worst matchup (I know, how is this possible, blah blah....) so I started going Phoenix Colossus again and it's working really well confuses the crap out of people on ladder and they have no idea how to deal with it.
Is there a good build order for it somewhere? I'm sure that there's a more efficient version than what I'm doing currently. Which is something like:
13 gate, 15 double gas with 3 on each, 1 zealot after cyber, 1 stalker and MsC then Nexus Then add Stargate and second gateway then oracle and robo.
I use oracle to harass/revelation while getting my colossus.
What do you do specifically?
One oracle into like 5-6 phoenix while directly teching to colossus with one forge for upgrades is what I do. I just kinda figured it out as I went and didn't really follow any specific build orders. It is so much fun to play and surprisingly good. If you don't take too much damage early you can even get a colossus or two out in time for the usually 10-11 minute stuff. That combined with the phoenixes killing the medivacs puts you in such a good position. I've done this style pretty much since last summer and it has continually been quite okay. It shuts down drop styles so well if you are active with map vision.
Basically I go in with Oracle to see if I can do damage. If I can't I fly it around scouting and spamming revelation on their army to make them paranoid and to know where it is at all times.
I go straigt to colossus and make nonstop/Colossus phoenix. I try to scout if they're adding a second Starport to double up on Viking production. If they do I immediately start transitioning to Templar. If they're not, I just add a bunch of Gateways and go for the kill!
It's a great build because when the 10 min push comes and sees your Colossus, the Terran knows he can't fight, but if he tries to run away he also loses all his Medivacs. So he has to either make Vikings or Medivacs when he needs both.
It's pretty much the only build that I win with in PvT now. 41% in the MU somehow. And I just recently started doing this and winning with it, so my win % was lower before :/
On March 11 2014 01:19 KingKayzz wrote: Hello, guys. I am a Terran player, but I read the P and Z threads to learn a thing or two about how other races handle T aggression.
After the patch I noticed that gas first Marine, Mine, Medivac timing has become really strong in TvP. (The one where you drop marines + mines between the protoss natural and main) Last night's game between TY and Super pretty much cemented my thoughts and now it is all I plan on doing in TvP.
I would like to know how you guys deal with such a build? It was very popular back in mid 2013, when Taeja was doing it to every Protoss in every 4 player map and winning off it.
I'm sorry for coming here, I just haven't found a game where this build loses, and I want to be ready for when something goes wrong!
Few things to add: It seems strong even when it get scouted in 2 player maps. Leaves Terran with oracle defense + safe enough to take second and macro to 3-5 raxes.
The only thing I see hard countering this build is rushing DTs. Are DT openings something protoss can do safely ?
A safe expand build like the Rain build (1 gate expand into robo + forge and cannons in mineral lines if needed) holds this type of pressure with no problem and gets a big lead, if played correctly it takes no damage at all.
Alternatively, a proxy 10 gate rush from protoss will just kill you.
Half correct.
The thing about doing TaeJa's 15 gas opener into a mine drop is that it's very situational and relies heavily on you microing your medivac well and retaining units well. I strongly suggest taking a look at the HerO vs. TaeJa game I wrote an article on (Link). In this game, HerO takes almost no damage from the drop, but TaeJa retains his units and gears up for a really powerful 2-base attack (that would probably kill most Protosses).
I think it's a decent opener, but it does have some glaring weaknesses that can be potentially exploited. For instance, you get very little scouting information without a reaper so you can outright die to DTs or some kind of silly gateway allin. You also invest very heavily into a factory and 2-3 mines which don't do very well against a super economic defensive robo build or a dedicated blink build (in which you'd rather just have 5 marauders with concussive shells instead). It's worth trying, but like I said before, it's quite a situational build; you'll find yourself more behind than ahead in most cases.
On March 11 2014 01:19 KingKayzz wrote: Hello, guys. I am a Terran player, but I read the P and Z threads to learn a thing or two about how other races handle T aggression.
After the patch I noticed that gas first Marine, Mine, Medivac timing has become really strong in TvP. (The one where you drop marines + mines between the protoss natural and main) Last night's game between TY and Super pretty much cemented my thoughts and now it is all I plan on doing in TvP.
I would like to know how you guys deal with such a build? It was very popular back in mid 2013, when Taeja was doing it to every Protoss in every 4 player map and winning off it.
I'm sorry for coming here, I just haven't found a game where this build loses, and I want to be ready for when something goes wrong!
Few things to add: It seems strong even when it get scouted in 2 player maps. Leaves Terran with oracle defense + safe enough to take second and macro to 3-5 raxes.
The only thing I see hard countering this build is rushing DTs. Are DT openings something protoss can do safely ?
A safe expand build like the Rain build (1 gate expand into robo + forge and cannons in mineral lines if needed) holds this type of pressure with no problem and gets a big lead, if played correctly it takes no damage at all.
Alternatively, a proxy 10 gate rush from protoss will just kill you.
Half correct.
The thing about doing TaeJa's 15 gas opener into a mine drop is that it's very situational and relies heavily on you microing your medivac well and retaining units well. I strongly suggest taking a look at the HerO vs. TaeJa game I wrote an article on (Link). In this game, HerO takes almost no damage from the drop, but TaeJa retains his units and gears up for a really powerful 2-base attack (that would probably kill most Protosses).
I think it's a decent opener, but it does have some glaring weaknesses that can be potentially exploited. For instance, you get very little scouting information without a reaper so you can outright die to DTs or some kind of silly gateway allin. You also invest very heavily into a factory and 2-3 mines which don't do very well against a super economic defensive robo build or a dedicated blink build (in which you'd rather just have 5 marauders with concussive shells instead). It's worth trying, but like I said before, it's quite a situational build; you'll find yourself more behind than ahead in most cases.
Builds like this require insane micro and multitasking to come out ahead economically, or you need to land some absolutely sick widow mine hits and catch your opponent off guard. It's really annoying to deal with. Faced it on ladder the other day. But the dude just couldn't macro behind it and I won eventually.
Hey guys, so I've been noticing lately as I've been moving up the ladder ranks that my Minimap awareness is pretty awful. Also, I find myself constantly getting stuck in the "stare at one position on the screen for way too long" mode quite often and it hurts my in-game awareness. So my question is, how do you guys go about practicing these things? It's hard to play a ladder match and play up to par while still trying to practice these things constantly and I find I fall back in bad habbits quickly as the game progresses. So was just wondering if anyone had some tips for practicing these things or any suggestions. Thanks!
On March 11 2014 14:11 ArTiFaKs wrote: Hey guys, so I've been noticing lately as I've been moving up the ladder ranks that my Minimap awareness is pretty awful. Also, I find myself constantly getting stuck in the "stare at one position on the screen for way too long" mode quite often and it hurts my in-game awareness. So my question is, how do you guys go about practicing these things? It's hard to play a ladder match and play up to par while still trying to practice these things constantly and I find I fall back in bad habbits quickly as the game progresses. So was just wondering if anyone had some tips for practicing these things or any suggestions. Thanks!
There is a multitasking trainer in the arcade. It's the one where you have to keep running a probe away from a Zergling while doing other tasks.
I practiced on that and it helped A LOT with my multitasking / minimap awareness. The two are related, because you can only look at the minimap if you have the APM to do all the things you need to do at the same time. Otherwise you'll just be staring at one part of the screen doing the same thing.
That trainer has "real world" use... when I open Oracle I find myself constantly using the skills I developed to keep the Oracle alive while macroing at the same time.
On March 11 2014 14:11 ArTiFaKs wrote: Hey guys, so I've been noticing lately as I've been moving up the ladder ranks that my Minimap awareness is pretty awful. Also, I find myself constantly getting stuck in the "stare at one position on the screen for way too long" mode quite often and it hurts my in-game awareness. So my question is, how do you guys go about practicing these things? It's hard to play a ladder match and play up to par while still trying to practice these things constantly and I find I fall back in bad habbits quickly as the game progresses. So was just wondering if anyone had some tips for practicing these things or any suggestions. Thanks!
There is a multitasking trainer in the arcade. It's the one where you have to keep running a probe away from a Zergling while doing other tasks.
I practiced on that and it helped A LOT with my multitasking / minimap awareness. The two are related, because you can only look at the minimap if you have the APM to do all the things you need to do at the same time. Otherwise you'll just be staring at one part of the screen doing the same thing.
That trainer has "real world" use... when I open Oracle I find myself constantly using the skills I developed to keep the Oracle alive while macroing at the same time.
I definitely recommend it.
Definitely doable. The alternative is simply just writing down a list of good habits and cycling through each one every day. For instance, your list might include: minimap awareness, mouse accuracy, spending money well, and faster APM. Each day, just focus on ONE of those things in your practice; keep it as a nagging though in the back of your brain and always present. Even though you'll falter in some other areas during your practice, you'll be strengthening that area so that when you focus on something else, that previous action is automatic and doesn't detract from your attention elsewhere.
Hi all. I want to return to SC2 as Protoss after the 1st half year of HotS I played as Zerg and the second half year I didn't play at all. What is the current metagame on all Protoss matchups in long term oriented games? Is there any good recent replay pack that I can download to study? I didn't follow the pro scene for a long time and I'm pretty clueless about that.
On March 12 2014 04:01 ApocAlypsE007 wrote: Hi all. I want to return to SC2 as Protoss after the 1st half year of HotS I played as Zerg and the second half year I didn't play at all. What is the current metagame on all Protoss matchups in long term oriented games? Is there any good recent replay pack that I can download to study? I didn't follow the pro scene for a long time and I'm pretty clueless about that.
A pretty nice resource that I use to keep up and be entertained is reddit.com/r/spoilerfreeSC
VODs, spoiler free. Then you can decide if you wanna watch Korean vs American Pros, find your matchups, find a player you like, etc etc. Games with Rain or Creator are always nice for macro Protoss play, although they will rarely be really aggressive to keep themselves from being predictable, but that isn't always a bad thing to have in your pocket in case you hit the same guy on ladder twice =]
EPT
confuses the crap out of people on ladder and they have no idea how to deal with it.
