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On December 14 2013 04:23 Teoita wrote: That guide isn't particularly good or detailed, but in general:
1) CC first can get a bunker up in time against a 13 gate msc/stalker poke easily and be completely fine 2) Because of the prevalence of msc expand, many terrans skip that bunker, so mixing up that kind of opening might be ok i suppose 3) It's kinda hard to figure out the timings for the whole thing if you don't do it a lot. On the one hand, you want to do it on a 4 player map because that makes it harder to scout; once the terran scouts it, your nexus is severely behind and you made early game units that aren't useful. Then again, on a 4p map you might get cross map spawns making your push weaker overall. I suspect this is a good reason we don't see that opening as often. 4) You still might catch someone that makes the bunker offguard, if you go 10gate/10gas instead of the standard 13gate/15 gas (the 10 gas allows you to get the stalker and msc together). 5) I've never been able to make it work because my stalker micro is fucking awful, but a teammate of mine used something like that as his standard opening for months and he was fine in PvT.
All in all i say go ahead and try it, you might find it suits you! You shouldn't expect to do game ending damage vs cc first tho
If you want to do a rush like that, I'd recommend doing a 10 gate into zealot/stalker/msc pressure, with a second stalker at home building. It kills CC first (or at least badly damages it), and badly damages a reaper opening (second stalker at home defends the reaper), or reactor barracks opening. As Teoita says here, 13 gate isn't fast enough to work reliably. The 10 gate variant is a lot weaker vs. things like a widow mine drop opening or going into hellions, and it will outright die to a 3 rax opening (fortunately that's pretty damn rare, although I suppose you can hold the counter with sentries and get to a really weird game state) Alternatively, if you really want to do it as a 13 gate pressure, you can send the MSC into the main and pressure the front with the zealot and stalker. If he abandons the bunker to defend the MSC you can just kill workers.
Could you post replay or BO? I would like to know, when to take cyber core, second pylon, second gas (?), etc.
On December 14 2013 04:23 Teoita wrote: That guide isn't particularly good or detailed, but in general:
1) CC first can get a bunker up in time against a 13 gate msc/stalker poke easily and be completely fine 2) Because of the prevalence of msc expand, many terrans skip that bunker, so mixing up that kind of opening might be ok i suppose 3) It's kinda hard to figure out the timings for the whole thing if you don't do it a lot. On the one hand, you want to do it on a 4 player map because that makes it harder to scout; once the terran scouts it, your nexus is severely behind and you made early game units that aren't useful. Then again, on a 4p map you might get cross map spawns making your push weaker overall. I suspect this is a good reason we don't see that opening as often. 4) You still might catch someone that makes the bunker offguard, if you go 10gate/10gas instead of the standard 13gate/15 gas (the 10 gas allows you to get the stalker and msc together). 5) I've never been able to make it work because my stalker micro is fucking awful, but a teammate of mine used something like that as his standard opening for months and he was fine in PvT.
All in all i say go ahead and try it, you might find it suits you! You shouldn't expect to do game ending damage vs cc first tho
If you want to do a rush like that, I'd recommend doing a 10 gate into zealot/stalker/msc pressure, with a second stalker at home building. It kills CC first (or at least badly damages it), and badly damages a reaper opening (second stalker at home defends the reaper), or reactor barracks opening. As Teoita says here, 13 gate isn't fast enough to work reliably. The 10 gate variant is a lot weaker vs. things like a widow mine drop opening or going into hellions, and it will outright die to a 3 rax opening (fortunately that's pretty damn rare, although I suppose you can hold the counter with sentries and get to a really weird game state) Alternatively, if you really want to do it as a 13 gate pressure, you can send the MSC into the main and pressure the front with the zealot and stalker. If he abandons the bunker to defend the MSC you can just kill workers.
Could you post replay or BO? I would like to know, when to take cyber core, second pylon, second gas (?), etc.
If the terran scouts, I prefer to start warpgate with my next 50 gas after the stalker, use chrono on probes, and go for a macro game. If you run into a reaper in the middle of the map, it's wise to cancel WG and start a second stalker to keep back home, then start WG again when you have the gas. Otherwise, with no terran scout, keep chronoing stalkers and hope for the best.
It's not as good as it used to be, now that terrans scout almost every game to block the standard 21 nexus. Still, it's great against CC first and pretty good against reaper expand. If the terran makes his CC on the low ground after reaper, you can delay it by simply running past the bunker. The stalker and MSC always survive due to recall, and your expo + probe chronos back home put you in a decent economic position. Unfortunately gasless expand will kill you, as will mine drops.
I managed to dig up a replay of the strat if you want to study the build order. Slight mistake with the second pylon (started 18 probe then canceled), but I'd have to go back months to find another replay of it.
Thank you very much. I will give it a shot. I was also thinking about taking second gas (probably after second stalker is started), and follow up with proxy Oracle, if I am able to do some damage with initial push. But I dont know, how it will work out. I give it a try.
I think builds like this (10 gate) work nicely when you proxy your gateway. Against reaper reactor expand, your msc can defend your probes if he tries to harass with his reaper and the terran will have 0 units in his main unless he doesn't get a reactor. Against cc first, well... I wish the terran gl, even flash has lost to this build (vs hero) in this scenario, although he did put up a good fight.
When play against 1-1-1 allin in pvt, how many sentries should I make? And do I need to cut probes, at what number? And do I need to take gases at natural?
On December 15 2013 10:12 OPDream wrote: When play against 1-1-1 allin in pvt, how many sentries should I make? And do I need to cut probes, at what number? And do I need to take gases at natural?
I don't think these questions are very important tbh. Upon scouting this, get imortals + more gates and don't go double forge. Prioritize immortals + units, force a fight before tanks get in siege position if possible, make good use of your msc. Gases at natural aren't necessary, but depending on how early the 1-1-1 hits or you scout it, you probably don't even need to worry about this as you will be close to 2 base saturation anyway. I'd say 2-3 gases is ok, while 4 gases is bad unless you have 44 probes.
edit : i just read you did 1g fe. 1g fe in pvp is done with 2xgas and after your core is finished, by then you should have scouted him, opted not to expand and played 3g + anything
normally you hold rushes well more easily than youd think. by proxying gateways he had to send a probe at 7 - that is like 30? % less economy than you and he must cut probes. you also have photon overcharge, time and the rush distance in your favor.
if you scout his base and dont see gws your priority is a stalker, 2 gates and msc, this will defeat zealot proxies with micro. once you see no zealots adding a robo and a 3rd gateway will defend against everything else.
the thing is even if he just plays normal from there, at some point you will kill the pylons and gws putting you in a dominating position if you reacted right
On December 15 2013 21:38 shivver wrote: Ok I just ran into something I've never went up against in pvp as protoss
I did a 1 gate FE and this guy did a proxy 2 gate chrono'ing stalkers and I just.. even if I added 2 gates I don't think I was going to have enough.
I tried throwing down a forge and cannon rushing his main, but my overcharge wore out and he just had more stalkers
How do you stop this?
Upon scouting this strategy and identifying it is not a regular proxy 2 gate, what I usually do is just add another gateway, get stalkers, and outmicro my opponent with the aid of some probes. Getting a forge seems like one of the worst responses possible to me, because stalkes are ranged and can attack a lot of your structures freely. You'd just lose way too much control by getting a defensive cannon. As for cannon rushing his base, even if it works, I can't see how you could defend your own base succesfully while cannon rushing your opponent.
I recall doing this strategy against a player who cannon rushed me (one of those get a cannon at natural before getting close enough to the nexus) and he straight up died to it. Even if he had a gateway, chances are I'd be able to move my probes away while killing his economy, which means he wouldn't be able to continue his cannon rush anway.
You can beat it without doing that though. I've lost to a super fast stargate a few times, even after killing tons of probes. I'm not sure whether targeting pylons instead of workers is a better call against this build, but if a voidray pops out, it's really hard to fight against stalker probe voidray. I naturally thought targeting workers would be good enough since you can't kill stalkers easily if they run away, but it wasn't enough.
I've also lost a game against the most standard way of holding off a regular proxy 2 gate (16 probes on minerals, 3 gates, spam zealots). Maybe I just mismicroed, I can't recall correctly, but I believe the zealot count gets high pretty fast and you can't micro against all of them. In other words, once they unpower your gateways, it's game over. Not sure how this would pan out if the proxy gating player simcities his pylon, but I don't think it gets much easier anyway.
On December 15 2013 21:38 shivver wrote: Ok I just ran into something I've never went up against in pvp as protoss
I did a 1 gate FE and this guy did a proxy 2 gate chrono'ing stalkers and I just.. even if I added 2 gates I don't think I was going to have enough.
I tried throwing down a forge and cannon rushing his main, but my overcharge wore out and he just had more stalkers
How do you stop this?
Upon scouting this strategy and identifying it is not a regular proxy 2 gate, what I usually do is just add another gateway, get stalkers, and outmicro my opponent with the aid of some probes. Getting a forge seems like one of the worst responses possible to me, because stalkes are ranged and can attack a lot of your structures freely. You'd just lose way too much control by getting a defensive cannon. As for cannon rushing his base, even if it works, I can't see how you could defend your own base succesfully while cannon rushing your opponent.
I recall doing this strategy against a player who cannon rushed me (one of those get a cannon at natural before getting close enough to the nexus) and he straight up died to it. Even if he had a gateway, chances are I'd be able to move my probes away while killing his economy, which means he wouldn't be able to continue his cannon rush anway.
You can beat it without doing that though. I've lost to a super fast stargate a few times, even after killing tons of probes. I'm not sure whether targeting pylons would workers is a better call against this build, but if a voidray pops out, it's really hard to fight against stalker probe voidray. I naturally thought targeting workers would be good enough since you can't kill stalkers easily if they run away, but it wasn't enough.
I've also lost a game against the most standard way of holding off a regular proxy 2 gate (16 probes on minerals, 3 gates, spam zealots). Maybe I just mismicroed, I can't recall correctly, but I believe the zealot count gets high pretty fast and you can't micro against all of them. In other words, once they unpower your gateways, it's game over. Not sure how this would pan out if the proxy gating player simcities his pylon, but I don't think it gets much easier anyway.
This wasn't a standard proxy 2 gate zealot rush, he only built one zealot
it was: 10 pylon 10 gate 13 gas 14 or 15 gate then constant chrono on stalkers
Then he just camped on my ramp till over charge ran out and had like double my stalker count come that time. I suppose adding 2 gates and warping in stalkers is the correct response.
On December 15 2013 21:38 shivver wrote: Ok I just ran into something I've never went up against in pvp as protoss
I did a 1 gate FE and this guy did a proxy 2 gate chrono'ing stalkers and I just.. even if I added 2 gates I don't think I was going to have enough.
I tried throwing down a forge and cannon rushing his main, but my overcharge wore out and he just had more stalkers
How do you stop this?
Upon scouting this strategy and identifying it is not a regular proxy 2 gate, what I usually do is just add another gateway, get stalkers, and outmicro my opponent with the aid of some probes. Getting a forge seems like one of the worst responses possible to me, because stalkes are ranged and can attack a lot of your structures freely. You'd just lose way too much control by getting a defensive cannon. As for cannon rushing his base, even if it works, I can't see how you could defend your own base succesfully while cannon rushing your opponent.
I recall doing this strategy against a player who cannon rushed me (one of those get a cannon at natural before getting close enough to the nexus) and he straight up died to it. Even if he had a gateway, chances are I'd be able to move my probes away while killing his economy, which means he wouldn't be able to continue his cannon rush anway.
You can beat it without doing that though. I've lost to a super fast stargate a few times, even after killing tons of probes. I'm not sure whether targeting pylons would workers is a better call against this build, but if a voidray pops out, it's really hard to fight against stalker probe voidray. I naturally thought targeting workers would be good enough since you can't kill stalkers easily if they run away, but it wasn't enough.
I've also lost a game against the most standard way of holding off a regular proxy 2 gate (16 probes on minerals, 3 gates, spam zealots). Maybe I just mismicroed, I can't recall correctly, but I believe the zealot count gets high pretty fast and you can't micro against all of them. In other words, once they unpower your gateways, it's game over. Not sure how this would pan out if the proxy gating player simcities his pylon, but I don't think it gets much easier anyway.
This wasn't a standard proxy 2 gate zealot rush, he only built one zealot
it was: 10 pylon 10 gate 13 gas 14 or 15 gate then constant chrono on stalkers
Then he just camped on my ramp till over charge ran out and had like double my stalker count come that time. I suppose adding 2 gates and warping in stalkers is the correct response.
Correct, he's out of gas at that point, he can't make stalkers continuously on 2 gates with one gas geyser, and especially not that early (he'll run out of minerals too). Add on more gates, buy time, micro, and pull a few probes and you should be fine.
On December 15 2013 21:38 shivver wrote: Ok I just ran into something I've never went up against in pvp as protoss
I did a 1 gate FE and this guy did a proxy 2 gate chrono'ing stalkers and I just.. even if I added 2 gates I don't think I was going to have enough.
I tried throwing down a forge and cannon rushing his main, but my overcharge wore out and he just had more stalkers
How do you stop this?
Upon scouting this strategy and identifying it is not a regular proxy 2 gate, what I usually do is just add another gateway, get stalkers, and outmicro my opponent with the aid of some probes. Getting a forge seems like one of the worst responses possible to me, because stalkes are ranged and can attack a lot of your structures freely. You'd just lose way too much control by getting a defensive cannon. As for cannon rushing his base, even if it works, I can't see how you could defend your own base succesfully while cannon rushing your opponent.
I recall doing this strategy against a player who cannon rushed me (one of those get a cannon at natural before getting close enough to the nexus) and he straight up died to it. Even if he had a gateway, chances are I'd be able to move my probes away while killing his economy, which means he wouldn't be able to continue his cannon rush anway.
You can beat it without doing that though. I've lost to a super fast stargate a few times, even after killing tons of probes. I'm not sure whether targeting pylons would workers is a better call against this build, but if a voidray pops out, it's really hard to fight against stalker probe voidray. I naturally thought targeting workers would be good enough since you can't kill stalkers easily if they run away, but it wasn't enough.
I've also lost a game against the most standard way of holding off a regular proxy 2 gate (16 probes on minerals, 3 gates, spam zealots). Maybe I just mismicroed, I can't recall correctly, but I believe the zealot count gets high pretty fast and you can't micro against all of them. In other words, once they unpower your gateways, it's game over. Not sure how this would pan out if the proxy gating player simcities his pylon, but I don't think it gets much easier anyway.
This wasn't a standard proxy 2 gate zealot rush, he only built one zealot
it was: 10 pylon 10 gate 13 gas 14 or 15 gate then constant chrono on stalkers
Then he just camped on my ramp till over charge ran out and had like double my stalker count come that time. I suppose adding 2 gates and warping in stalkers is the correct response.
I know exactly what build this is. It is actually 10 gate,12 gas, 12 gate, 12 core - zealot, chrono 2 stalkers, then build a pylon at your opponent's ramp for high ground vision and continue building stalkers. Everything I mentioned above is based on my experience with this strategy myself.
I just got mindfucked by a Terran. He builds 5-6 reapers which i scout and hold off perfectly. Then proceeds to build 15-20 more of em. I am always thinking in my head that i have to make sure he dont expand behind this, but he is holding the middle of the map with 20-25 reapers which makes me believe this is a 1 base push so i need to build units like crazy. Meanwhile i build a stargate and push out 2 oracles. Going to his base i see he is well saturated on 2 bases suddenly, so now im in a really fucked position. I proceed to expand myself and try to tech up as fast as i can, but then he pushes with a fuckton of marines and marauders and reapers. I have no chance at all.
This is a masters terran, he has like 40 win streak. He also sniped a oracle of mine out of nowhere, could be luck but yeah .... Strangest match ive ever seen. Never seen a terran build like that before.
This is a masters terran, he has like 40 win streak. He also sniped a oracle of mine out of nowhere, could be luck but yeah .... Strangest match ive ever seen. Never seen a terran build like that before.
dont worry about this at all. if a masters player ques unranked he can get matched agianst gold. the mechanics, game sense and micro let his units be far far more effective. throw in something weird and you can catch most players offguard. that doesnt mean its good though. Just take the loss as it is, a compeletely unfairly matched upgame and it can tell you only about your lacking mechanics.
I can tell you that anything with many reapers is completely unviable in equal level play
This is a masters terran, he has like 40 win streak. He also sniped a oracle of mine out of nowhere, could be luck but yeah .... Strangest match ive ever seen. Never seen a terran build like that before.
dont worry about this at all. if a masters player ques unranked he can get matched agianst gold. the mechanics, game sense and micro let his units be far far more effective. throw in something weird and you can catch most players offguard. that doesnt mean its good though. Just take the loss as it is, a compeletely unfairly matched upgame and it can tell you only about your lacking mechanics.
I can tell you that anything with many reapers is completely unviable in equal level play
Not helpful. I think it's obvious that mass reapers shouldn't work, don't just repeat the obvious.
[B]On December 16 2013 05:09 Avean wrote: I just got mindfucked by a Terran. He builds 5-6 reapers which i scout and hold off perfectly. Then proceeds to build 15-20 more of em. I am always thinking in my head that i have to make sure he dont expand behind this, but he is holding the middle of the map with 20-25 reapers which makes me believe this is a 1 base push so i need to build units like crazy. Meanwhile i build a stargate and push out 2 oracles. Going to his base i see he is well saturated on 2 bases suddenly, so now im in a really fucked position. I proceed to expand myself and try to tech up as fast as i can, but then he pushes with a fuckton of marines and marauders and reapers. I have no chance at all.
This is a masters terran, he has like 40 win streak. He also sniped a oracle of mine out of nowhere, could be luck but yeah .... Strangest match ive ever seen. Never seen a terran build like that before.
In my experience, the best way to respond to a ton of reapers (4+) is to continually chronoboost immortals (after the initial observer) and get blink going. If he stupidly tries to go like 20 reapers, just position an immortal and 2-3 stalkers in each mineral line until blink finishes and then just 6-gate allin FTW. I haven't played against this strategy A TON, but the few times I have, I royally fuck it over lol.
A silly qeustion may be.. but how do u guys deal with 1 base terran agression, that come at around 6 - 6:30 min, while u play standard ~ 21 nexus? A terran makes a decent bio force, so u cant hold at natural, while rushing for stim and gettin a much later expand while u r locked at the main.
On December 16 2013 15:32 insitelol wrote: A silly qeustion may be.. but how do u guys deal with 1 base terran agression, that come at around 6 - 6:30 min, while u play standard ~ 21 nexus? A terran makes a decent bio force, so u cant hold at natural, while rushing for stim and gettin a much later expand while u r locked at the main.
The way I saw Minigun held such a push was the following: 2-3 sentries/zealots/1 immortal (one more was being built) and a Mothership Core to cast Photon Overcharge. You just need to FF behind his bio (if possible) and then let photon overcharge and your army deal with it. It is important to trap the terran. You need to have 3 gateways. If you want to be even more efficient, focus fire on marauders only with your immortal(s).
On December 16 2013 15:32 insitelol wrote: A silly qeustion may be.. but how do u guys deal with 1 base terran agression, that come at around 6 - 6:30 min, while u play standard ~ 21 nexus? A terran makes a decent bio force, so u cant hold at natural, while rushing for stim and gettin a much later expand while u r locked at the main.
Most of the time this can dealt by scouting then reacting. No CC at natural + the additional rax indicates it. The rest is just holding with forcefields, units and planetary nexus.
Also question, I've taken a break from SC and now I have no idea whats going recently. Anyone can indicate me a standard Stargate Opening for PvT? Also one for PvP, as my DT->chargelot isnt working as well anymore.
EPT
It is important to trap the terran. You need to have 3 gateways. If you want to be even more efficient, focus fire on marauders only with your immortal(s).
