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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. |
On December 16 2013 19:19 Animostas wrote:
Assuming standard 9 Pylon, 13 Gate, etc, how do you hold off proxy 2 gate stalker PvP?
I'd already answered this question on the very page you asked it...
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United States4883 Posts
On December 16 2013 15:32 insitelol wrote:
A silly qeustion may be.. but how do u guys deal with 1 base terran agression, that come at around 6 - 6:30 min, while u play standard ~ 21 nexus? A terran makes a decent bio force, so u cant hold at natural, while rushing for stim and gettin a much later expand while u r locked at the main.
Yeah, just use FF, nexus cannon, and good micro to stop it. As long as you aren't skipping on units once you scout it, you should be fine.
On December 16 2013 16:35 ishida66 wrote:
Also question, I've taken a break from SC and now I have no idea whats going recently. Anyone can indicate me a standard Stargate Opening for PvT? Also one for PvP, as my DT->chargelot isnt working as well anymore.
Standard opening for PvT is MSC expand into robo. If you want a stargate, just substitute it for the robo. Roughly, the build order is something like this: + Show Spoiler +9 pylon
**Chronoboost x4 on nexus**
13 gate
15 double gas (2 on each)
17 pylon
18 core
20 zealot (cancel)
21 nexus
21 warpgate
21 MSC
23 stalker
25 pylon
@150 gas -> stargate
Now it's time to plug myself: 2-gate FE PvP
and Some PvP DT Builds
AND Immortal/archon/chargelot mid game PvP
and also a really good video: Scouting in PvP by ShockSC
On December 16 2013 19:19 Animostas wrote:
Assuming standard 9 Pylon, 13 Gate, etc, how do you hold off proxy 2 gate stalker PvP?
Scout it early, get your own second gate, pull probes, and micro like hell.
Additionally, I've heard that getting a really fast stargate and rushing out a void ray can work, but I'm not 100% positive that's possible.
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United States7483 Posts
On December 16 2013 23:24 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2013 15:32 insitelol wrote:
A silly qeustion may be.. but how do u guys deal with 1 base terran agression, that come at around 6 - 6:30 min, while u play standard ~ 21 nexus? A terran makes a decent bio force, so u cant hold at natural, while rushing for stim and gettin a much later expand while u r locked at the main. Yeah, just use FF, nexus cannon, and good micro to stop it. As long as you aren't skipping on units once you scout it, you should be fine. Show nested quote +On December 16 2013 16:35 ishida66 wrote:
Also question, I've taken a break from SC and now I have no idea whats going recently. Anyone can indicate me a standard Stargate Opening for PvT? Also one for PvP, as my DT->chargelot isnt working as well anymore. Standard opening for PvT is MSC expand into robo. If you want a stargate, just substitute it for the robo. Roughly, the build order is something like this: + Show Spoiler +9 pylon
**Chronoboost x4 on nexus**
13 gate
15 double gas (2 on each)
17 pylon
18 core
20 zealot (cancel)
21 nexus
21 warpgate
21 MSC
23 stalker
25 pylon
@150 gas -> stargate Now it's time to plug myself: 2-gate FE PvPand Some PvP DT BuildsAND Immortal/archon/chargelot mid game PvPand also a really good video: Scouting in PvP by ShockSCShow nested quote +On December 16 2013 19:19 Animostas wrote:
Assuming standard 9 Pylon, 13 Gate, etc, how do you hold off proxy 2 gate stalker PvP? Scout it early, get your own second gate, pull probes, and micro like hell. Additionally, I've heard that getting a really fast stargate and rushing out a void ray can work, but I'm not 100% positive that's possible.
In my experience the stargate doesn't work well, as you can't really hold the ramp to buy enough time without sentries, and you can't afford the gas expenditure on the SG, void ray, a sentry and the msc in time.
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On December 17 2013 05:16 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2013 23:24 SC2John wrote:On December 16 2013 15:32 insitelol wrote:
A silly qeustion may be.. but how do u guys deal with 1 base terran agression, that come at around 6 - 6:30 min, while u play standard ~ 21 nexus? A terran makes a decent bio force, so u cant hold at natural, while rushing for stim and gettin a much later expand while u r locked at the main. Yeah, just use FF, nexus cannon, and good micro to stop it. As long as you aren't skipping on units once you scout it, you should be fine. On December 16 2013 16:35 ishida66 wrote:
Also question, I've taken a break from SC and now I have no idea whats going recently. Anyone can indicate me a standard Stargate Opening for PvT? Also one for PvP, as my DT->chargelot isnt working as well anymore. Standard opening for PvT is MSC expand into robo. If you want a stargate, just substitute it for the robo. Roughly, the build order is something like this: + Show Spoiler +9 pylon
**Chronoboost x4 on nexus**
13 gate
15 double gas (2 on each)
17 pylon
18 core
20 zealot (cancel)
21 nexus
21 warpgate
21 MSC
23 stalker
25 pylon
@150 gas -> stargate Now it's time to plug myself: 2-gate FE PvPand Some PvP DT BuildsAND Immortal/archon/chargelot mid game PvPand also a really good video: Scouting in PvP by ShockSCOn December 16 2013 19:19 Animostas wrote:
Assuming standard 9 Pylon, 13 Gate, etc, how do you hold off proxy 2 gate stalker PvP? Scout it early, get your own second gate, pull probes, and micro like hell. Additionally, I've heard that getting a really fast stargate and rushing out a void ray can work, but I'm not 100% positive that's possible. In my experience the stargate doesn't work well, as you can't really hold the ramp to buy enough time without sentries, and you can't afford the gas expenditure on the SG, void ray, a sentry and the msc in time.
I don't mean to be offensive, but to be totally honest I find it hard to believe you have any experience trying to get a voidray out against this build. Who gets a sentry + msc to buy time for a voidray against a proxy 1 zealot 2 stalker rush? How are you even supposed to force field this army out when it's supposed to go up your ramp before you have a sentry out? What you have to do is get a stargate asap, make stalkers for defensive purposes, and micro defensively. That includes not getting your stargate unpowered.
Once again, I've played against this fast stargate a few times and killing a TON of probes just didn't cut it. Once the voidray came out, my units got wrecked. What you need to do is keep your stargate powered until a voidray comes out. While the first 2 stalkers come out really fast for the player doing the proxy, it takes quite a bit to get stalkers 3 and 4 out because you need to wait for your second pylon to finish.
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United States7483 Posts
On December 17 2013 05:50 vhapter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 05:16 Whitewing wrote:On December 16 2013 23:24 SC2John wrote:On December 16 2013 15:32 insitelol wrote:
A silly qeustion may be.. but how do u guys deal with 1 base terran agression, that come at around 6 - 6:30 min, while u play standard ~ 21 nexus? A terran makes a decent bio force, so u cant hold at natural, while rushing for stim and gettin a much later expand while u r locked at the main. Yeah, just use FF, nexus cannon, and good micro to stop it. As long as you aren't skipping on units once you scout it, you should be fine. On December 16 2013 16:35 ishida66 wrote:
Also question, I've taken a break from SC and now I have no idea whats going recently. Anyone can indicate me a standard Stargate Opening for PvT? Also one for PvP, as my DT->chargelot isnt working as well anymore. Standard opening for PvT is MSC expand into robo. If you want a stargate, just substitute it for the robo. Roughly, the build order is something like this: + Show Spoiler +9 pylon
**Chronoboost x4 on nexus**
13 gate
15 double gas (2 on each)
17 pylon
18 core
20 zealot (cancel)
21 nexus
21 warpgate
21 MSC
23 stalker
25 pylon
@150 gas -> stargate Now it's time to plug myself: 2-gate FE PvPand Some PvP DT BuildsAND Immortal/archon/chargelot mid game PvPand also a really good video: Scouting in PvP by ShockSCOn December 16 2013 19:19 Animostas wrote:
Assuming standard 9 Pylon, 13 Gate, etc, how do you hold off proxy 2 gate stalker PvP? Scout it early, get your own second gate, pull probes, and micro like hell. Additionally, I've heard that getting a really fast stargate and rushing out a void ray can work, but I'm not 100% positive that's possible. In my experience the stargate doesn't work well, as you can't really hold the ramp to buy enough time without sentries, and you can't afford the gas expenditure on the SG, void ray, a sentry and the msc in time. I don't mean to be offensive, but to be totally honest I find it hard to believe you have any experience trying to get a voidray out against this build. Who gets a sentry + msc to buy time for a voidray against a proxy 1 zealot 2 stalker rush? How are you even supposed to force field this army out when it's supposed to go up your ramp before you have a sentry out? What you have to do is get a stargate asap, make stalkers for defensive purposes, and micro defensively. That includes not getting your stargate unpowered. Once again, I've played against this fast stargate a few times and killing a TON of probes just didn't cut it. Once the voidray came out, my units got wrecked. What you need to do is keep your stargate powered until a voidray comes out. While the first 2 stalkers come out really fast for the player doing the proxy, it takes quite a bit to get stalkers 3 and 4 out because you need to wait for your second pylon to finish.
I used to do a build for quite a long time where you get a super fast second gas after a 10 gate/12 core, cut probes, and rush out a stargate (usually to go oracle, I stopped doing the build since then), tried doing void rays to defend this. By the time my void was out I'd lost most of my probes and he just ran his stalkers away. I can't imagine getting a faster void ray out. If you don't get it out that soon, you need to somehow hold his proxy off without it, thus delaying. Rushing the void didn't work, and you can't afford other units to delay and still get the void ray, so yeah. Stargate isn't a good answer vs. this kind of proxy, and definitely not retroactively after scouting it.
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On December 17 2013 06:27 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 05:50 vhapter wrote:On December 17 2013 05:16 Whitewing wrote:On December 16 2013 23:24 SC2John wrote:On December 16 2013 15:32 insitelol wrote:
A silly qeustion may be.. but how do u guys deal with 1 base terran agression, that come at around 6 - 6:30 min, while u play standard ~ 21 nexus? A terran makes a decent bio force, so u cant hold at natural, while rushing for stim and gettin a much later expand while u r locked at the main. Yeah, just use FF, nexus cannon, and good micro to stop it. As long as you aren't skipping on units once you scout it, you should be fine. On December 16 2013 16:35 ishida66 wrote:
Also question, I've taken a break from SC and now I have no idea whats going recently. Anyone can indicate me a standard Stargate Opening for PvT? Also one for PvP, as my DT->chargelot isnt working as well anymore. Standard opening for PvT is MSC expand into robo. If you want a stargate, just substitute it for the robo. Roughly, the build order is something like this: + Show Spoiler +9 pylon
**Chronoboost x4 on nexus**
13 gate
15 double gas (2 on each)
17 pylon
18 core
20 zealot (cancel)
21 nexus
21 warpgate
21 MSC
23 stalker
25 pylon
@150 gas -> stargate Now it's time to plug myself: 2-gate FE PvPand Some PvP DT BuildsAND Immortal/archon/chargelot mid game PvPand also a really good video: Scouting in PvP by ShockSCOn December 16 2013 19:19 Animostas wrote:
Assuming standard 9 Pylon, 13 Gate, etc, how do you hold off proxy 2 gate stalker PvP? Scout it early, get your own second gate, pull probes, and micro like hell. Additionally, I've heard that getting a really fast stargate and rushing out a void ray can work, but I'm not 100% positive that's possible. In my experience the stargate doesn't work well, as you can't really hold the ramp to buy enough time without sentries, and you can't afford the gas expenditure on the SG, void ray, a sentry and the msc in time. I don't mean to be offensive, but to be totally honest I find it hard to believe you have any experience trying to get a voidray out against this build. Who gets a sentry + msc to buy time for a voidray against a proxy 1 zealot 2 stalker rush? How are you even supposed to force field this army out when it's supposed to go up your ramp before you have a sentry out? What you have to do is get a stargate asap, make stalkers for defensive purposes, and micro defensively. That includes not getting your stargate unpowered. Once again, I've played against this fast stargate a few times and killing a TON of probes just didn't cut it. Once the voidray came out, my units got wrecked. What you need to do is keep your stargate powered until a voidray comes out. While the first 2 stalkers come out really fast for the player doing the proxy, it takes quite a bit to get stalkers 3 and 4 out because you need to wait for your second pylon to finish. I used to do a build for quite a long time where you get a super fast second gas after a 10 gate/12 core, cut probes, and rush out a stargate (usually to go oracle, I stopped doing the build since then), tried doing void rays to defend this. By the time my void was out I'd lost most of my probes and he just ran his stalkers away. I can't imagine getting a faster void ray out. If you don't get it out that soon, you need to somehow hold his proxy off without it, thus delaying. Rushing the void didn't work, and you can't afford other units to delay and still get the void ray, so yeah. Stargate isn't a good answer vs. this kind of proxy, and definitely not retroactively after scouting it.
That's probably because the build you were doing cuts way too much economy. I understand what you're saying now, but there's a difference between being able to make units and get a stargate a soon as your cybernetics core is finished, and making an ultrafast stargate with fewer probes and literally no units.
I'm not even advocating the fast stargate as a solid counter upon scouting this proxy. It probably depends on how much gas you have to begin with. Even if the stalkers run away, things should be about even to say the least, considering the fact that you only get 12 probes to do a 1 zealot 2 stalker rush AND you lose 2 pylons, 2 gateways, and a cybernetics core if you do decide to run away.
The reason I'm saying this is possible is because I've played against this build more than once, and even without making any blunders, once the voidray comes out... you won't be making stalkers within the next 2 minutes or so. I haven't tried targeting pylons systematically because you usually want to kill stuff asap with this build, but I tried basically all other options and the only thing left was either unpowering the stargate or supply blocking the defending player for long enough so he could never get a voidray out.
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United States7483 Posts
On December 17 2013 06:59 vhapter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 06:27 Whitewing wrote:On December 17 2013 05:50 vhapter wrote:On December 17 2013 05:16 Whitewing wrote:On December 16 2013 23:24 SC2John wrote:On December 16 2013 15:32 insitelol wrote:
A silly qeustion may be.. but how do u guys deal with 1 base terran agression, that come at around 6 - 6:30 min, while u play standard ~ 21 nexus? A terran makes a decent bio force, so u cant hold at natural, while rushing for stim and gettin a much later expand while u r locked at the main. Yeah, just use FF, nexus cannon, and good micro to stop it. As long as you aren't skipping on units once you scout it, you should be fine. On December 16 2013 16:35 ishida66 wrote:
Also question, I've taken a break from SC and now I have no idea whats going recently. Anyone can indicate me a standard Stargate Opening for PvT? Also one for PvP, as my DT->chargelot isnt working as well anymore. Standard opening for PvT is MSC expand into robo. If you want a stargate, just substitute it for the robo. Roughly, the build order is something like this: + Show Spoiler +9 pylon
**Chronoboost x4 on nexus**
13 gate
15 double gas (2 on each)
17 pylon
18 core
20 zealot (cancel)
21 nexus
21 warpgate
21 MSC
23 stalker
25 pylon
@150 gas -> stargate Now it's time to plug myself: 2-gate FE PvPand Some PvP DT BuildsAND Immortal/archon/chargelot mid game PvPand also a really good video: Scouting in PvP by ShockSCOn December 16 2013 19:19 Animostas wrote:
Assuming standard 9 Pylon, 13 Gate, etc, how do you hold off proxy 2 gate stalker PvP? Scout it early, get your own second gate, pull probes, and micro like hell. Additionally, I've heard that getting a really fast stargate and rushing out a void ray can work, but I'm not 100% positive that's possible. In my experience the stargate doesn't work well, as you can't really hold the ramp to buy enough time without sentries, and you can't afford the gas expenditure on the SG, void ray, a sentry and the msc in time. I don't mean to be offensive, but to be totally honest I find it hard to believe you have any experience trying to get a voidray out against this build. Who gets a sentry + msc to buy time for a voidray against a proxy 1 zealot 2 stalker rush? How are you even supposed to force field this army out when it's supposed to go up your ramp before you have a sentry out? What you have to do is get a stargate asap, make stalkers for defensive purposes, and micro defensively. That includes not getting your stargate unpowered. Once again, I've played against this fast stargate a few times and killing a TON of probes just didn't cut it. Once the voidray came out, my units got wrecked. What you need to do is keep your stargate powered until a voidray comes out. While the first 2 stalkers come out really fast for the player doing the proxy, it takes quite a bit to get stalkers 3 and 4 out because you need to wait for your second pylon to finish. I used to do a build for quite a long time where you get a super fast second gas after a 10 gate/12 core, cut probes, and rush out a stargate (usually to go oracle, I stopped doing the build since then), tried doing void rays to defend this. By the time my void was out I'd lost most of my probes and he just ran his stalkers away. I can't imagine getting a faster void ray out. If you don't get it out that soon, you need to somehow hold his proxy off without it, thus delaying. Rushing the void didn't work, and you can't afford other units to delay and still get the void ray, so yeah. Stargate isn't a good answer vs. this kind of proxy, and definitely not retroactively after scouting it. That's probably because the build you were doing cuts way too much economy. I understand what you're saying now, but there's a difference between being able to make units and get a stargate a soon as your cybernetics core is finished, and making an ultrafast stargate with fewer probes and literally no units. I'm not even advocating the fast stargate as a solid counter upon scouting this proxy. It probably depends on how much gas you have to begin with. Even if the stalkers run away, things should be about even to say the least, considering the fact that you only get 12 probes to do a 1 zealot 2 stalker rush AND you lose 2 pylons, 2 gateways, and a cybernetics core if you do decide to run away. The reason I'm saying this is possible is because I've played against this build more than once, and even without making any blunders, once the voidray comes out... you won't be making stalkers within the next 2 minutes or so. I haven't tried targeting pylons systematically because you usually want to kill stuff asap with this build, but I tried basically all other options and the only thing left was either unpowering the stargate or supply blocking the defending player for long enough so he could never get a voidray out.
If you do a normal 13 gate into stargate immediately after cyber core, wouldn't the stalkers be pushing up your ramp before your stargate finishes on a proxy? How do you manage to not lose most of your workers before the voidray pops? Once the workers are dead, you only need to kill 1 voidray, which doesn't seem that bad if you can manage to make him waste the overcharge.
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On December 17 2013 09:18 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 06:59 vhapter wrote:On December 17 2013 06:27 Whitewing wrote:On December 17 2013 05:50 vhapter wrote:On December 17 2013 05:16 Whitewing wrote:On December 16 2013 23:24 SC2John wrote:On December 16 2013 15:32 insitelol wrote:
A silly qeustion may be.. but how do u guys deal with 1 base terran agression, that come at around 6 - 6:30 min, while u play standard ~ 21 nexus? A terran makes a decent bio force, so u cant hold at natural, while rushing for stim and gettin a much later expand while u r locked at the main. Yeah, just use FF, nexus cannon, and good micro to stop it. As long as you aren't skipping on units once you scout it, you should be fine. On December 16 2013 16:35 ishida66 wrote:
Also question, I've taken a break from SC and now I have no idea whats going recently. Anyone can indicate me a standard Stargate Opening for PvT? Also one for PvP, as my DT->chargelot isnt working as well anymore. Standard opening for PvT is MSC expand into robo. If you want a stargate, just substitute it for the robo. Roughly, the build order is something like this: + Show Spoiler +9 pylon
**Chronoboost x4 on nexus**
13 gate
15 double gas (2 on each)
17 pylon
18 core
20 zealot (cancel)
21 nexus
21 warpgate
21 MSC
23 stalker
25 pylon
@150 gas -> stargate Now it's time to plug myself: 2-gate FE PvPand Some PvP DT BuildsAND Immortal/archon/chargelot mid game PvPand also a really good video: Scouting in PvP by ShockSCOn December 16 2013 19:19 Animostas wrote:
Assuming standard 9 Pylon, 13 Gate, etc, how do you hold off proxy 2 gate stalker PvP? Scout it early, get your own second gate, pull probes, and micro like hell. Additionally, I've heard that getting a really fast stargate and rushing out a void ray can work, but I'm not 100% positive that's possible. In my experience the stargate doesn't work well, as you can't really hold the ramp to buy enough time without sentries, and you can't afford the gas expenditure on the SG, void ray, a sentry and the msc in time. I don't mean to be offensive, but to be totally honest I find it hard to believe you have any experience trying to get a voidray out against this build. Who gets a sentry + msc to buy time for a voidray against a proxy 1 zealot 2 stalker rush? How are you even supposed to force field this army out when it's supposed to go up your ramp before you have a sentry out? What you have to do is get a stargate asap, make stalkers for defensive purposes, and micro defensively. That includes not getting your stargate unpowered. Once again, I've played against this fast stargate a few times and killing a TON of probes just didn't cut it. Once the voidray came out, my units got wrecked. What you need to do is keep your stargate powered until a voidray comes out. While the first 2 stalkers come out really fast for the player doing the proxy, it takes quite a bit to get stalkers 3 and 4 out because you need to wait for your second pylon to finish. I used to do a build for quite a long time where you get a super fast second gas after a 10 gate/12 core, cut probes, and rush out a stargate (usually to go oracle, I stopped doing the build since then), tried doing void rays to defend this. By the time my void was out I'd lost most of my probes and he just ran his stalkers away. I can't imagine getting a faster void ray out. If you don't get it out that soon, you need to somehow hold his proxy off without it, thus delaying. Rushing the void didn't work, and you can't afford other units to delay and still get the void ray, so yeah. Stargate isn't a good answer vs. this kind of proxy, and definitely not retroactively after scouting it. That's probably because the build you were doing cuts way too much economy. I understand what you're saying now, but there's a difference between being able to make units and get a stargate a soon as your cybernetics core is finished, and making an ultrafast stargate with fewer probes and literally no units. I'm not even advocating the fast stargate as a solid counter upon scouting this proxy. It probably depends on how much gas you have to begin with. Even if the stalkers run away, things should be about even to say the least, considering the fact that you only get 12 probes to do a 1 zealot 2 stalker rush AND you lose 2 pylons, 2 gateways, and a cybernetics core if you do decide to run away. The reason I'm saying this is possible is because I've played against this build more than once, and even without making any blunders, once the voidray comes out... you won't be making stalkers within the next 2 minutes or so. I haven't tried targeting pylons systematically because you usually want to kill stuff asap with this build, but I tried basically all other options and the only thing left was either unpowering the stargate or supply blocking the defending player for long enough so he could never get a voidray out. If you do a normal 13 gate into stargate immediately after cyber core, wouldn't the stalkers be pushing up your ramp before your stargate finishes on a proxy? How do you manage to not lose most of your workers before the voidray pops? Once the workers are dead, you only need to kill 1 voidray, which doesn't seem that bad if you can manage to make him waste the overcharge.
I never said the stargate was proxied in the games I played, nor that it had to be proxied. Simply put, I did kill a lot of workers as you'd expect and still lost the game anyway. Honestly, I don't feel the need to test this scenario anymore or justify the results of my own practice. Whether it's a good response or not is out of the question in my humble option - what I am trying to say is that it is possible to win this way.
What I myself do is get another gateway and outmicro my opponent. But since the stargate approach seemed to require a much more specific response and most players are just worried about outmicroing the other player and killing workers that join the fight, I think it's worth mentioning. And if you build your stargate behind your mineral line, it can be much harder to unpower it since that makes it much easier to probe surround stalkers that come close to it.
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Italy12248 Posts
Dunno i feel like the most reliable way is just to micro. I highly doubt you can get tech up in time and as usual, we shouldn't count ladder games as signs of viability of a build.
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On December 17 2013 09:42 Teoita wrote:
Dunno i feel like the most reliable way is just to micro. I highly doubt you can get tech up in time and as usual, we shouldn't count ladder games as signs of viability of a build.
I tested this a few times against aldochillbro. I knew what he was doing and thought I'd probably made a silly mistake or something. But I lost again without being outmicroed or anything too odd happening.
We both concluded the targeting pylons was probably the best approach, but even if that's the right way to do it, I'm willing to bet several players would make the wrong call. In a way, it shows that this can work, even if it's not necessarily optimal (which I never claimed to be).
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i remember those games. I think the key things that led to me winning was the fact that I got a fast stargate, my pylons were in the same place powering all the buildings, and my probe micro is really good against that build in particular. once you get 2 voids out though it's hard to beat them if you use your void overcharge correctly
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
There's one thing I'm having trouble with at the moment. If my opponent does a 1base stargate opening with a relatively quick robo, gets an oracle first and then keeps producing void rays and 1-2 immortals with gateway support and then attacks after expanding (with about 3-4 void rays and 1-2 immortals), how do I best respond to it? I seem to lose to it no matter what I do, whether I've expanded or not, no matter what tech I have. I've been trying to get a templar archives out as quickly as possible, the standard forge timing and going up to 4 gates with whatever else I have techwise (say I opened 1gate FE robo). Am I correct in assuming I need a few sentries to forcefield away their ground army, as many archons as I can get, a few stalkers to help targeting down void rays and then just zealots? Should I try to mix in 1-2 immortals?
I've got no problem at all dealing with void rays usually but they're a real pain to deal with when you don't have the economic tools to kill them cost effectively.
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I would recommend going very heavy on chargelot archon against this. Void ray + immortal annihilates stalkers so I'd rely on archons to do the anti air damage. From my experience I would crush their ground army with this - sometimes void rays survive and my archons didnt so then just warp in stalkers to finish them off
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
Alright, will do that. Thanks!
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Italy12248 Posts
I had teammates doing that all the time.
Imo it depends on the early game a lot. If you go DT and don't do enough damage while his oracle gets a few kills (so basicallly, worst case scenario) you're basically screwed (or at the very least, almost guaranteed to lose your nat, which is no fnu). On the other hand, if you fast expand and take little damage from the oracle (best case scenario) you can easily stomp that timing by just making units off 3/4 gates and a robo.
I don't think you can realistically tech to chargelot/archon if he commits to the timing im thinking of because it hits too fast (11/12 minutes or so), but that's usually done off 2gas so you can easily scout it. If he takes his natural gasses i think you are free to tech up.
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On December 17 2013 22:56 Teoita wrote:
I had teammates doing that all the time.
Imo it depends on the early game a lot. If you go DT and don't do enough damage while his oracle gets a few kills (so basicallly, worst case scenario) you're basically screwed (or at the very least, almost guaranteed to lose your nat, which is no fnu). On the other hand, if you fast expand and take little damage from the oracle (best case scenario) you can easily stomp that timing by just making units off 3/4 gates and a robo.
I don't think you can realistically tech to chargelot/archon if he commits to the timing im thinking of because it hits too fast (11/12 minutes or so), but that's usually done off 2gas so you can easily scout it. If he takes his natural gasses i think you are free to tech up.
Ya you really need to keep your MSC alive imo for the photon overcharge, I've had trouble dealing with it because I always seem to get my archons blocked by the zealot wall so they can't effectively engage the VR before getting targeted down. In order to have enough gas to make enough archons for this timing, assuming a DT expand or something similar, do you recommend taking your natural gases early? Or how many archons would you say is essentially the optimum for dealing with this?
Edit: Is getting a cannon or two a good idea as well for the extra DPS or is that just a waste of resources better used elsewhere?
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Italy12248 Posts
Nah i think you should just pump zealot/stalker/immortal/sentry tbh. I've held it with just pure units off a fast expand, nothing terribly fancy. Usually if i DT expand and don't do any damage, that push kills me or at least does shit tons of damage.
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On December 17 2013 09:41 vhapter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 09:18 Whitewing wrote:On December 17 2013 06:59 vhapter wrote:On December 17 2013 06:27 Whitewing wrote:On December 17 2013 05:50 vhapter wrote:On December 17 2013 05:16 Whitewing wrote:On December 16 2013 23:24 SC2John wrote:On December 16 2013 15:32 insitelol wrote:
A silly qeustion may be.. but how do u guys deal with 1 base terran agression, that come at around 6 - 6:30 min, while u play standard ~ 21 nexus? A terran makes a decent bio force, so u cant hold at natural, while rushing for stim and gettin a much later expand while u r locked at the main. Yeah, just use FF, nexus cannon, and good micro to stop it. As long as you aren't skipping on units once you scout it, you should be fine. On December 16 2013 16:35 ishida66 wrote:
Also question, I've taken a break from SC and now I have no idea whats going recently. Anyone can indicate me a standard Stargate Opening for PvT? Also one for PvP, as my DT->chargelot isnt working as well anymore. Standard opening for PvT is MSC expand into robo. If you want a stargate, just substitute it for the robo. Roughly, the build order is something like this: + Show Spoiler +9 pylon
**Chronoboost x4 on nexus**
13 gate
15 double gas (2 on each)
17 pylon
18 core
20 zealot (cancel)
21 nexus
21 warpgate
21 MSC
23 stalker
25 pylon
@150 gas -> stargate Now it's time to plug myself: 2-gate FE PvPand Some PvP DT BuildsAND Immortal/archon/chargelot mid game PvPand also a really good video: Scouting in PvP by ShockSCOn December 16 2013 19:19 Animostas wrote:
Assuming standard 9 Pylon, 13 Gate, etc, how do you hold off proxy 2 gate stalker PvP? Scout it early, get your own second gate, pull probes, and micro like hell. Additionally, I've heard that getting a really fast stargate and rushing out a void ray can work, but I'm not 100% positive that's possible. In my experience the stargate doesn't work well, as you can't really hold the ramp to buy enough time without sentries, and you can't afford the gas expenditure on the SG, void ray, a sentry and the msc in time. I don't mean to be offensive, but to be totally honest I find it hard to believe you have any experience trying to get a voidray out against this build. Who gets a sentry + msc to buy time for a voidray against a proxy 1 zealot 2 stalker rush? How are you even supposed to force field this army out when it's supposed to go up your ramp before you have a sentry out? What you have to do is get a stargate asap, make stalkers for defensive purposes, and micro defensively. That includes not getting your stargate unpowered. Once again, I've played against this fast stargate a few times and killing a TON of probes just didn't cut it. Once the voidray came out, my units got wrecked. What you need to do is keep your stargate powered until a voidray comes out. While the first 2 stalkers come out really fast for the player doing the proxy, it takes quite a bit to get stalkers 3 and 4 out because you need to wait for your second pylon to finish. I used to do a build for quite a long time where you get a super fast second gas after a 10 gate/12 core, cut probes, and rush out a stargate (usually to go oracle, I stopped doing the build since then), tried doing void rays to defend this. By the time my void was out I'd lost most of my probes and he just ran his stalkers away. I can't imagine getting a faster void ray out. If you don't get it out that soon, you need to somehow hold his proxy off without it, thus delaying. Rushing the void didn't work, and you can't afford other units to delay and still get the void ray, so yeah. Stargate isn't a good answer vs. this kind of proxy, and definitely not retroactively after scouting it. That's probably because the build you were doing cuts way too much economy. I understand what you're saying now, but there's a difference between being able to make units and get a stargate a soon as your cybernetics core is finished, and making an ultrafast stargate with fewer probes and literally no units. I'm not even advocating the fast stargate as a solid counter upon scouting this proxy. It probably depends on how much gas you have to begin with. Even if the stalkers run away, things should be about even to say the least, considering the fact that you only get 12 probes to do a 1 zealot 2 stalker rush AND you lose 2 pylons, 2 gateways, and a cybernetics core if you do decide to run away. The reason I'm saying this is possible is because I've played against this build more than once, and even without making any blunders, once the voidray comes out... you won't be making stalkers within the next 2 minutes or so. I haven't tried targeting pylons systematically because you usually want to kill stuff asap with this build, but I tried basically all other options and the only thing left was either unpowering the stargate or supply blocking the defending player for long enough so he could never get a voidray out. If you do a normal 13 gate into stargate immediately after cyber core, wouldn't the stalkers be pushing up your ramp before your stargate finishes on a proxy? How do you manage to not lose most of your workers before the voidray pops? Once the workers are dead, you only need to kill 1 voidray, which doesn't seem that bad if you can manage to make him waste the overcharge. I never said the stargate was proxied in the games I played, nor that it had to be proxied. Simply put, I did kill a lot of workers as you'd expect and still lost the game anyway. Honestly, I don't feel the need to test this scenario anymore or justify the results of my own practice. Whether it's a good response or not is out of the question in my humble option - what I am trying to say is that it is possible to win this way. What I myself do is get another gateway and outmicro my opponent. But since the stargate approach seemed to require a much more specific response and most players are just worried about outmicroing the other player and killing workers that join the fight, I think it's worth mentioning. And if you build your stargate behind your mineral line, it can be much harder to unpower it since that makes it much easier to probe surround stalkers that come close to it.
You should post a replay, because the idea of countering a 2 gate proxy with void rays makes me laugh.
Probably it was just a really bad execution of the proxy gates.
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Hi! I'm a bronze level protoss player, and I'm looking for someone to kinda' coach me to help me get better at the game! If anyone can do this, then message me! Thanks!
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I have a PvT question: is there a reason not to open aggressive every game? From what I've seen recently, there seem to be multiple aggressive openings that allow P to macro to a normal game off the back end, but also offer the opportunity to win outright (2 base 4-gate blink, stargate, dt). Outside of seeing a 1-1-1 maybe (though stargate probably counters), is there a reason not to do one of these builds?
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