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On December 12 2013 16:57 Teoita wrote: No point mentioning banshees in PvT, they are a trash unit against every reasonable protoss macro build (stargate/templar, robo/templar, robo/colossus). Widow mines do the early-mid game harassment/scouting role much much better. These points are super valid tho:
2) playing without observers sucks 3) that guy that plays mech gets a chance 5) you dont have the option of dropping
So yeah, obs-less play is dead in hots. I used to do it a lot (using kcdc's build) because you could get storm in time against medivac timings, but you just need some form of map vision now.
Well, the biggest problem playing without observers, IMO, is that you're denied 100% scouting until your first hallucination is done, while the Terran can see everything you're doing with a good Reaper scout.
Early marine/mine aggression will do damage, any mine drops will be annoying as hell, and if your opponent is meching you will have no idea until it's too late (some people open banshee harass, hellion drops, etc. into mech, you won't see it coming at all).
On December 12 2013 16:57 Teoita wrote: No point mentioning banshees in PvT, they are a trash unit against every reasonable protoss macro build (stargate/templar, robo/templar, robo/colossus). Widow mines do the early-mid game harassment/scouting role much much better. These points are super valid tho:
2) playing without observers sucks 3) that guy that plays mech gets a chance 5) you dont have the option of dropping
So yeah, obs-less play is dead in hots. I used to do it a lot (using kcdc's build) because you could get storm in time against medivac timings, but you just need some form of map vision now.
Well, the biggest problem playing without observers, IMO, is that you're denied 100% scouting until your first hallucination is done, while the Terran can see everything you're doing with a good Reaper scout.
Early marine/mine aggression will do damage, any mine drops will be annoying as hell, and if your opponent is meching you will have no idea until it's too late (some people open banshee harass, hellion drops, etc. into mech, you won't see it coming at all).
It's just NOT worth skipping robo IMO.
I think playing without obs perfectly viable, just really difficult mechanically and relatively unexplored. As long as you're opening with Stargate, you're still getting a lot of important scouting information at key times (everything before then you can use non-indicators and a well-structured build to defend) as well as a tiny bit of map control. Certainly it's good to add on a robo while taking a 3rd base and invest into 2-3 observers later in the game, but using an oracle to spot for mostly everything until ~12:00 is still possible. Dealing with banshees and mech is a non-issue because you can just reactively put down a robo for obs/immortals after scouting.
On December 13 2013 04:07 Teoita wrote: If you play no robo, oracles for scouting are a must imo. Also, that style is much more apm intensive so it's worth keeping that in mind as well.
Yeah, the only time you ever really attempt to play an obs-less macro game is if you opened stargate and are transitioning into twilight tech. However, even in this situation, playing without observers is incredibly challenging and much more unforgiving.
I've noticed that my late game army composition seems rather small next to a maxed out bio ball, especially when I have both ht and colossi, which means I also need a handful of stalkers to kill vikings. I wonder if it's better to just have 2-3 colossi so that my army size isn't too small.
I usually make 12 stalkers when I have colossi, but I wonder if that's too much in the late game. I supposed I could make less stalkers once I have archons and ht, but I don't know how many stalkers and archons to make either. So, I'd like to know what's considered a well-balanced/ideal late game army (please mention numbers if possible). Also, should I have any immortals in the mix?
In addition to that, some players make a LOT of marauders and I'm not sure if I should adapt my army composition in this situation. If so, should I add immortals?
I usually leave units at my main and third along with 2 templars for drop defense. But when it's time to take a fourth and play the late game, it becomes trickier to defend and control space. Unlike in WOL, medivacs can much more easily bypass ht + a few cannons. Even if I have good map vision, I feel like I need to stay at 180 supply or something just to be safe. So is going more cannon heavy the right call once you're maxed out? And maybe attack with my entire army if the terran tries to drop in multiple locations? Or is it better to mostly defend and counter drop the terran when an engagement occurs?
It'd be really nice to see vods and replays that illustrate these late game situations. If you remember any, please let me know.
On December 13 2013 23:15 vhapter wrote: I've noticed that my late game army composition seems rather small next to a maxed out bio ball, especially when I have both ht and colossi, which means I also need a handful of stalkers to kill vikings. I wonder if it's better to just have 2-3 colossi so that my army size isn't too small.
Pretty sure the ideal situation is 3 Colossi then go into Templar anyway. How many are you building?
On December 13 2013 23:15 vhapter wrote: I've noticed that my late game army composition seems rather small next to a maxed out bio ball, especially when I have both ht and colossi, which means I also need a handful of stalkers to kill vikings. I wonder if it's better to just have 2-3 colossi so that my army size isn't too small.
Pretty sure the ideal situation is 3 Colossi then go into Templar anyway. How many are you building?
I've seen a lot of people argue that's risky to get only 3 colossi because scv pulls (that's even in the OP). I guess I usually get 4 colossi, though 4 colossi seems like a lot of supply to me.
I saw in the CC first thread that a one zealot, one stalker, one MSC rush could maybe punish a Terran from doing this build. However, I can't really find any info on this rush, nor know if it is actually a valid decision against CC first. Could someone get me build order, or general build for doing so, or link me to a replay? And also, does it mean a big sacrifice in economy, like should I try to win the game with it, or should I expand during the pressure and just back the attack when it's not working anymore and the damage is done? I'm sorry if the information is already available and I just haven't found it!
That guide isn't particularly good or detailed, but in general:
1) CC first can get a bunker up in time against a 13 gate msc/stalker poke easily and be completely fine 2) Because of the prevalence of msc expand, many terrans skip that bunker, so mixing up that kind of opening might be ok i suppose 3) It's kinda hard to figure out the timings for the whole thing if you don't do it a lot. On the one hand, you want to do it on a 4 player map because that makes it harder to scout; once the terran scouts it, your nexus is severely behind and you made early game units that aren't useful. Then again, on a 4p map you might get cross map spawns making your push weaker overall. I suspect this is a good reason we don't see that opening as often. 4) You still might catch someone that makes the bunker offguard, if you go 10gate/10gas instead of the standard 13gate/15 gas (the 10 gas allows you to get the stalker and msc together). 5) I've never been able to make it work because my stalker micro is fucking awful, but a teammate of mine used something like that as his standard opening for months and he was fine in PvT.
All in all i say go ahead and try it, you might find it suits you! You shouldn't expect to do game ending damage vs cc first tho
On December 14 2013 04:23 Teoita wrote: That guide isn't particularly good or detailed, but in general:
1) CC first can get a bunker up in time against a 13 gate msc/stalker poke easily and be completely fine 2) Because of the prevalence of msc expand, many terrans skip that bunker, so mixing up that kind of opening might be ok i suppose 3) It's kinda hard to figure out the timings for the whole thing if you don't do it a lot. On the one hand, you want to do it on a 4 player map because that makes it harder to scout; once the terran scouts it, your nexus is severely behind and you made early game units that aren't useful. Then again, on a 4p map you might get cross map spawns making your push weaker overall. I suspect this is a good reason we don't see that opening as often. 4) You still might catch someone that makes the bunker offguard, if you go 10gate/10gas instead of the standard 13gate/15 gas (the 10 gas allows you to get the stalker and msc together). 5) I've never been able to make it work because my stalker micro is fucking awful, but a teammate of mine used something like that as his standard opening for months and he was fine in PvT.
All in all i say go ahead and try it, you might find it suits you! You shouldn't expect to do game ending damage vs cc first tho
If you want to do a rush like that, I'd recommend doing a 10 gate into zealot/stalker/msc pressure, with a second stalker at home building. It kills CC first (or at least badly damages it), and badly damages a reaper opening (second stalker at home defends the reaper), or reactor barracks opening. As Teoita says here, 13 gate isn't fast enough to work reliably. The 10 gate variant is a lot weaker vs. things like a widow mine drop opening or going into hellions, and it will outright die to a 3 rax opening (fortunately that's pretty damn rare, although I suppose you can hold the counter with sentries and get to a really weird game state)
Alternatively, if you really want to do it as a 13 gate pressure, you can send the MSC into the main and pressure the front with the zealot and stalker. If he abandons the bunker to defend the MSC you can just kill workers.
If i Cannon Rush in PvZ 90% of the time Zerg replies with 1 base swarm host. I lost every game so far :D Does someone have a replay of a succesfull defense? What is the best reaction to that? Every input will be appreciated!
On December 14 2013 10:54 Blaugott wrote: If i Cannon Rush in PvZ 90% of the time Zerg replies with 1 base swarm host. I lost every game so far :D Does someone have a replay of a succesfull defense? What is the best reaction to that? Every input will be appreciated!
It would be better to see one of your replays. The most common followup after a cannon rush (I assume, at the natural...) is to take your own natural and usually go stargate. Just watching Jaedong vs. sOs and do what sOs does to followup: phoenix/3-gate. If your opponent tries to go swarm hosts, you can probably outright win with an oracle for detection.
Hi, I'm a bronze protoss player and I've had some trouble holding off 6 pools. I've encoutered about 3-4 in the last 20 games, and I feel like my ZvP is lacking. I scouted just after my gateway went down (13 food), and I saw the pool. By then however, lings were hatching, and it was simply too late. I rushed to wall of my ramp with another pylon, and rushed out a Zealot. However, it wasn't enough. Any tips?
1) Wall off your ramp with an extra gate and a pylon and chronoboost zealots. Block your ramp with a few probes as necessary to buy time, like in this game:
2) Not bother with a ramp wall off, and simply chronoboost out a zealot as soon as you scout the 6pool while microing your probes. What you are supposed to do is select all of them once the lings get near and click on a mineral patch away from the lings. This will cause all your probes to bunch up. If the lings still try to run in and kill the probes (which bronze players will do), now you send them all to a mineral patch towards the lings. This makes the move through the lings, bunched up. Once you are on top of the lings amove: you will surround and kill every ling by having superior positioning. If you can, micro the hurt probes to go back to mine. You will probably only have to do this once before a zealot comes out, at which point you are safe. Keep making zealots of the zerg keeps making lings (again, likely to happen in bronze).
3) Forge expand and, upon scouting the 6pool, abandon the low ground pylon/forge and make a pylon/cannon in your main. Micro your probes as above if necessary. From here gateway expand and play out a normal game.
Remember that if you stabilize and the zerg doesn't leave he's likely to pull out more gayness like wierd mass ling or roach allins, muta, nydus and other cheesy things. Usually a cheesy ladder player will keep on being cheesy.
On December 15 2013 02:18 Jollocks wrote: Hi, I'm a bronze protoss player and I've had some trouble holding off 6 pools. I've encoutered about 3-4 in the last 20 games, and I feel like my ZvP is lacking. I scouted just after my gateway went down (13 food), and I saw the pool. By then however, lings were hatching, and it was simply too late. I rushed to wall of my ramp with another pylon, and rushed out a Zealot. However, it wasn't enough. Any tips?
You don't need to wallof with a gate exp. Just chronoboost out a zealot and put it in your mineral line. If he's so stupid to attack you pull 4-5 probes to help the zealot (not more!) When your MSC is out he can't do anymore damage and you can safely expand with a nice economic lead...
EPT
