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ok please explain to me how is this wrong-
assuming I have 16 probes (no gas) and my natural finishes, I rerally to my natural and i stop making probes at 16 in each base
or i transfer 8 probes and keep my rally points
after x minutes i will have mined out in both cases. therefore i have mined the same amount. in the first case i get 8 (half of the production) small dips in my economy while probes are transfering one by one until i reach saturation. In the second case i get one big dip worth 8 probes.
yes - it changes the amount of minerals you have available at times slightly, but once you reach saturation it doesnt make a significant difference.
and i was in fact talking about the new lotv unit : Templar colossus wich benefits from observer uprades, im surprised you havent heard of it.
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On December 12 2013 05:43 weikor wrote:
ok please explain to me how is this wrong-
assuming I have 16 probes (no gas) and my natural finishes, I rerally to my natural and i stop making probes at 16 in each base
or i transfer 8 probes and keep my rally points
after x minutes i will have mined out in both cases. therefore i have mined the same amount. in the first case i get 8 (half of the production) small dips in my economy while probes are transfering one by one until i reach saturation. In the second case i get one big dip worth 8 probes.
yes - it changes the amount of minerals you have available at times slightly, but once you reach saturation it doesnt make a significant difference.
and i was in fact talking about the new lotv unit : Templar colossus wich benefits from observer uprades, im surprised you havent heard of it.
They need to just give Colossus Storm and detection and get it over with.
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Italy12247 Posts
I really dont think you can go for pure gateway/templar play without observers or oracles for map vision tbh
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On December 12 2013 06:34 Teoita wrote:
I really dont think you can go for pure gateway/templar play without observers or oracles for map vision tbh
I somewhat agree, medivac boost makes doom drops really hard to stop without vision.. but with good templar control you might be able to swing it.
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Italy12247 Posts
I've seen several pros doing that and not being able to defend, so i highly doubt your average player can.
The only robo-less, tempar build i can think of is Parting's old 2/2 zealot archon allin of the 1gate fe>double forge with no robo opening.
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hello,
how is it these days with phoenix openings in PvP? I rarely see them in hots - are they even viable anymore?
I have been mostly inactive since HotS came out, and trying to get back into old shape, I need to see a way to go in PvP (Now I struggle with everything I try, but in wol, I opened phoenixes almost every game and it was ok for me )
So, if anyone have some recommendation about a player(streamer preferabely) who plays this way, or even one of you guys would give me some tips from your own play, I would be grateful. Inspiration is what I lack the most 
thanks
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On December 12 2013 08:56 Eladen wrote:hello, how is it these days with phoenix openings in PvP? I rarely see them in hots - are they even viable anymore? I have been mostly inactive since HotS came out, and trying to get back into old shape, I need to see a way to go in PvP (Now I struggle with everything I try, but in wol, I opened phoenixes almost every game and it was ok for me ) So, if anyone have some recommendation about a player(streamer preferabely) who plays this way, or even one of you guys would give me some tips from your own play, I would be grateful. Inspiration is what I lack the most thanks
DT is more viable than in WoL and Oracles are in the game, also Nexus Cannon is a thing. Usually don't see Phoenix except as a dedicated Phoenix + 3 gate allin to counter 1 gate expand into robo or something. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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On December 12 2013 06:34 Teoita wrote:
I really dont think you can go for pure gateway/templar play without observers or oracles for map vision tbh
Widow mines will ruin your day. If he just drops 1-2 in your minerals you cant mine until robo AND obs are done or risk losing all your workers. You need observers.
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On December 12 2013 09:10 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2013 06:34 Teoita wrote:
I really dont think you can go for pure gateway/templar play without observers or oracles for map vision tbh Widow mines will ruin your day. If he just drops 1-2 in your minerals you cant mine until robo AND obs are done or risk losing all your workers. You need observers.
or you just put a cannon in each mineral line if you're planning on skipping robo?
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well you could just make a blind cannon, that way at least your mineral line is safe. Kinda depends what you mean by roboless doesnt it, but why would you want to anyway.
1) At some point it is needed anyway, for colossus.
2) playing without observers sucks
3) that guy that plays mech gets a chance
4) some cheesy builds become viable, even with cannons
5) you dont have the option of dropping
6) you will need to invest into sentries or stargate just for scouting, even if your opponent
advantages:
1) you save 200/100
thats almost a templar or half your charge upgrade in gas!!!
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On December 12 2013 10:06 weikor wrote:
well you could just make a blind cannon, that way at least your mineral line is safe. Kinda depends what you mean by roboless doesnt it, but why would you want to anyway.
1) At some point it is needed anyway, for colossus.
2) playing without observers sucks
3) that guy that plays mech gets a chance
4) some cheesy builds become viable, even with cannons
5) you dont have the option of dropping
6) you will need to invest into sentries or stargate just for scouting, even if your opponent
advantages:
1) you save 200/100
thats almost a templar or half your charge upgrade in gas!!!
Banshees will fuck you up.
100 gas is just not worth skipping robo IMO especially when you'll have to shell out at least 300 mins on cannons.
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On December 12 2013 08:56 Eladen wrote:hello, how is it these days with phoenix openings in PvP? I rarely see them in hots - are they even viable anymore? I have been mostly inactive since HotS came out, and trying to get back into old shape, I need to see a way to go in PvP (Now I struggle with everything I try, but in wol, I opened phoenixes almost every game and it was ok for me ) So, if anyone have some recommendation about a player(streamer preferabely) who plays this way, or even one of you guys would give me some tips from your own play, I would be grateful. Inspiration is what I lack the most thanks If you want to see someone pull off phoenixes, watch Nony. He frequently goes for phoenix builds. He doesn't go pure phoenix but uses them to supplement his army. It can be surprising how well he holds off blink builds with it. If his opponent goes DT he usually immediately drops a robo and chronos out an oracle then picks up the DTs with the phoenixes.
On December 12 2013 10:12 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2013 10:06 weikor wrote:
well you could just make a blind cannon, that way at least your mineral line is safe. Kinda depends what you mean by roboless doesnt it, but why would you want to anyway.
1) At some point it is needed anyway, for colossus.
2) playing without observers sucks
3) that guy that plays mech gets a chance
4) some cheesy builds become viable, even with cannons
5) you dont have the option of dropping
6) you will need to invest into sentries or stargate just for scouting, even if your opponent
advantages:
1) you save 200/100
thats almost a templar or half your charge upgrade in gas!!!
Banshees will fuck you up. 100 gas is just not worth skipping robo IMO especially when you'll have to shell out at least 300 mins on cannons.
I experimented with that style (no robo, but cannons instead so I can go upgrades and twilight) and gave up. Without observers to spot drops it gets significantly harder to beat drop happy Terrans. It only worked against passive Terrans or people worse than me. Against an even skilled Terran going drops, I was getting worked pretty badly. I can definitely see the use of it for all-ins though, but that isn't my style.
And yeah, banshees. Everything not in range of cannons died the few times I played against banshees. I've also been seeing on streams/facing this marine/mine timing push and not having observers makes that push insanely powerful. I think Taeja did it a few times on his stream recently.
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United States4883 Posts
On December 12 2013 09:09 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2013 08:56 Eladen wrote:hello, how is it these days with phoenix openings in PvP? I rarely see them in hots - are they even viable anymore? I have been mostly inactive since HotS came out, and trying to get back into old shape, I need to see a way to go in PvP (Now I struggle with everything I try, but in wol, I opened phoenixes almost every game and it was ok for me ) So, if anyone have some recommendation about a player(streamer preferabely) who plays this way, or even one of you guys would give me some tips from your own play, I would be grateful. Inspiration is what I lack the most thanks DT is more viable than in WoL and Oracles are in the game, also Nexus Cannon is a thing. Usually don't see Phoenix except as a dedicated Phoenix + 3 gate allin to counter 1 gate expand into robo or something. Correct me if I'm wrong.
There are less all-innish pressures, but yeah, most of them are designed to punish fast expands relying on robo. In a way, they're starting to make a comeback into the meta as more and more players are doing it, but unlike in WoL, you MUST do some damage with a stargate opening or you will fall way behind economically.
I would highly recommend doing a DT expand in HotS, as it's safe against most pressures and only gets a marginally later nexus than most fast expands (and also, you don't have to cut probes).
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On December 12 2013 13:57 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2013 09:09 DinoMight wrote:On December 12 2013 08:56 Eladen wrote:hello, how is it these days with phoenix openings in PvP? I rarely see them in hots - are they even viable anymore? I have been mostly inactive since HotS came out, and trying to get back into old shape, I need to see a way to go in PvP (Now I struggle with everything I try, but in wol, I opened phoenixes almost every game and it was ok for me ) So, if anyone have some recommendation about a player(streamer preferabely) who plays this way, or even one of you guys would give me some tips from your own play, I would be grateful. Inspiration is what I lack the most thanks DT is more viable than in WoL and Oracles are in the game, also Nexus Cannon is a thing. Usually don't see Phoenix except as a dedicated Phoenix + 3 gate allin to counter 1 gate expand into robo or something. Correct me if I'm wrong. There are less all-innish pressures, but yeah, most of them are designed to punish fast expands relying on robo. In a way, they're starting to make a comeback into the meta as more and more players are doing it, but unlike in WoL, you MUST do some damage with a stargate opening or you will fall way behind economically. I would highly recommend doing a DT expand in HotS, as it's safe against most pressures and only gets a marginally later nexus than most fast expands (and also, you don't have to cut probes).
Is there a good write up on the DT expand? I have always been cutting probes with mine and I wonder how I can squeeze out a couple extra.
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On December 12 2013 14:14 DeadzergSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2013 13:57 SC2John wrote:On December 12 2013 09:09 DinoMight wrote:On December 12 2013 08:56 Eladen wrote:hello, how is it these days with phoenix openings in PvP? I rarely see them in hots - are they even viable anymore? I have been mostly inactive since HotS came out, and trying to get back into old shape, I need to see a way to go in PvP (Now I struggle with everything I try, but in wol, I opened phoenixes almost every game and it was ok for me ) So, if anyone have some recommendation about a player(streamer preferabely) who plays this way, or even one of you guys would give me some tips from your own play, I would be grateful. Inspiration is what I lack the most thanks DT is more viable than in WoL and Oracles are in the game, also Nexus Cannon is a thing. Usually don't see Phoenix except as a dedicated Phoenix + 3 gate allin to counter 1 gate expand into robo or something. Correct me if I'm wrong. There are less all-innish pressures, but yeah, most of them are designed to punish fast expands relying on robo. In a way, they're starting to make a comeback into the meta as more and more players are doing it, but unlike in WoL, you MUST do some damage with a stargate opening or you will fall way behind economically. I would highly recommend doing a DT expand in HotS, as it's safe against most pressures and only gets a marginally later nexus than most fast expands (and also, you don't have to cut probes). Is there a good write up on the DT expand? I have always been cutting probes with mine and I wonder how I can squeeze out a couple extra.
I've been doing the Dear dt expand in most of my PvPs lately just to test the limits of the build, and it's very strong. The basic framework is:
13 gate (4 chronos on probes)
15 gas x2 --> scout for proxies and then scout the opponent (do NOT lose this probe)
17 pylon behind mineral line
3 probes in each gas immediately
18 core
21 twilight as soon as core finishes
21 WG (2 chronos after the MSC chrono)
21 MSC (chrono it)
23 pylon, make sure it powers the gate
23 probe
24 stalker
dark shrine once twilight finishes
hold probes at 28 supply, 28 nexus
28 robo
28 proxy pylon
You'll have near 250 gas when the core finishes, and the robo finishes in time to stop dts, so it's very well timed out. The general idea is to warp one proxy dt and either kill him if he didn't get detection, or harass/scout if he did. Keeping the dt alive is essential unless you can get 5+ probes for it. It holds its own against most builds, but there are two weaknesses:
1) 1 gate FE into robo: dt will do no damage and your nexus is a minute slower
2) economic 3 gate into robo (the one where the robo starts at ~5:20-5:25): your expo will be canceled and the dt usually doesn't do enough to make up for it
Adapting to most other builds should be straightforward, but let me say a few words on how to counter the 10 gate --> 3 gate strategy. Follow the build verbatim through the part where you start the dark shrine. Once the stalker finishes, build a zealot. Instead of a nexus you'll want to make 2 more gates, making sure that every gate is powered by as many pylons as possible. It doesn't really matter whether he does the zealot zealot or zealot stalker version, but if he makes a stalker, make sure to keep the MSC alive. If he manages to get a pylon up the ramp, run the MSC back behind your mineral line. His 3 stalker warpin will occur when the MSC is in the mid-90s energy-wise, so you need to sit tight for a few seconds before activating the nexus cannon. Make sure to place your proxy pylon and chrono WG during all of this. Warp your first dt in via the proxy pylon, and chrono the gate so you can make one at home asap. Some players will just charge your probes even with the nexus cannon hitting them, so be ready to micro.
A bonus of this build is that, if you happen to run into the same guy twice on ladder, you can turn it into a blink all-in while making it look identical. Just follow the build up to the point where you build the stalker. Hold probes once you have 16 on minerals, and start blink immediately. Use all chronos on blink instead of WG and constantly build stalkers from your first gate (should have 3 when WG finishes). Make extra gates when you have the money after blink starts.
Overall it's a great tool to have in your arsenal.
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On December 12 2013 02:46 sWs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 16:08 -Napkin wrote:
Hey, high master toss here, wondering if anyone could comment on my general pvt build (no specific times, just the general idea)
so i basically defend defend defend never agress..
gate
cyber
msc
nexus (double gas right when done)
2xgate
forge and twilight
templar archive/charge
storm
make 3 templars
2xgate or (3rd)nexus (which ever is first depends on terran)
3xgate
3x robo
gates
once i have 6 templars,
push with 6 coli
win games because they have such low vikings
end game army is usually
6-10stalkers
6templars
6coli
3obs
zealots
I basically just go for super super early templars and charge to defend against early aggression, i can easily defend stim timings, also this is for standard play, if i scout a mine drop or something i obviously throw in an early robo, etc.. make make some stalkers and a cut a couple templars if they are heavy on drops.. Just wondering if I can take this style with me to gm and still win.
I have the gas to do this much teching because of the early 3/4th gases, by the time my natural finishes i have 6 probes there ready to put in gas.
note: By time time anyone is close to having ghosts out, i will have 3 coli.
note: I will have atleast 3 storms (Usually more) by any sort of scv pull timing)
I have yet to encounter anyone with ghosts at my front door before my coli are out, the storms are usually just to scare off the terran while i go 3robo coli You shouldn't make three robo's at the same time when switching to colusus.. also you should probably have like 8-10 templar before you switch. 4-5 in army 1-2 per expansion, and when switching to robo you can make 2 robos max, more is overkill. 8 gates off two base, 10-14 gates off three base+
I am basically going for an allin with the 3 robo with constant chronoboosts on coli/range and just attack with 6 coli + range and it puts me pretty allin but if I get to the point in game I always win. I have some trouble defending 2 prong attacks with my build because I am defending with basically only storms.. if he doesnt attack until stim/medivacs are out im usually safe and warp in stalkers to defend drops. But if the terran does like a 10marine push forcing me to make zealots then drops me with medivacs later It does a lot of damage to me because I dont have the minerals for stalkers to kill the medivacs. (Reason for stalkers are I try to fb and kill eith stalkers before he is able to drop.
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Italy12247 Posts
No point mentioning banshees in PvT, they are a trash unit against every reasonable protoss macro build (stargate/templar, robo/templar, robo/colossus). Widow mines do the early-mid game harassment/scouting role much much better. These points are super valid tho:
2) playing without observers sucks
3) that guy that plays mech gets a chance
5) you dont have the option of dropping
So yeah, obs-less play is dead in hots. I used to do it a lot (using kcdc's build) because you could get storm in time against medivac timings, but you just need some form of map vision now.
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i have recently watched minigun's stream.
in all matchups he played a BO that contains 2 early gas with 1 gate and core into stargate -> oracle into expand.
sadly the last 2 days he didnt played this build so i cant look it up and write it down.
does anyone know the exact BO for such build/opening?
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Italy12247 Posts
Stargate before nexus? That's VERY non standard (unless you proxy i suppose), MC did it at that MLG at the start of HotS and then msc expo became the standard opener.
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On December 12 2013 08:56 Eladen wrote:hello, how is it these days with phoenix openings in PvP? I rarely see them in hots - are they even viable anymore? I have been mostly inactive since HotS came out, and trying to get back into old shape, I need to see a way to go in PvP (Now I struggle with everything I try, but in wol, I opened phoenixes almost every game and it was ok for me ) So, if anyone have some recommendation about a player(streamer preferabely) who plays this way, or even one of you guys would give me some tips from your own play, I would be grateful. Inspiration is what I lack the most thanks
There is no valid reason why wouldn't pheonix opening work in HoTs. I open phoenix almost every PvP and it's ok for me! Only a dedicated Blink-all in will ruin my day.
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EPT
