EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 205
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
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Mikah
Finland230 Posts
Blink builds seem to work only on some maps.. anything else? | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
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aldochillbro
187 Posts
On December 11 2013 04:10 Mikah wrote: Any good 1 base all-ins for pvp? 4 gate was fun but seems like it doesnt work in this damn expansion. (yes im new to hots) Blink builds seem to work only on some maps.. anything else? 10 gate 3-gate is good for your level probably. pylon 10, gate 10, gas 12, cyber, zealot 15, pylon 18, stalker, 2 gates at 22, then stalker. 1 chrono on probes rest on warpgate. there's a proxy void ray build that starts with a 10gate and was used at the pro level in korea at least 1-2 months ago if someone can direct you to it. stargate 3gate allins can be good but it's probably better to use it more reactively. | ||
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aldochillbro
187 Posts
On December 11 2013 04:39 darkness wrote: Is robo inappropriate in PvP nowadays? I played one PvP game where I lost to gate/stargate play and my opponent said robo wasn't good these days. robo will always have it's place in the metagame. it's weaker right now because of the oracle buff but it doesn't mean that you can't do it. i would recommend going some form of stargate but 1 gate into expand then robo can still work well, it's just weak to stargate play. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On December 11 2013 04:39 darkness wrote: Is robo inappropriate in PvP nowadays? I played one PvP game where I lost to gate/stargate play and my opponent said robo wasn't good these days. Stargate openings are very popular right now, and robo openers are pretty much as close to a build order loss against those as you can get. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On December 11 2013 05:51 Whitewing wrote: Stargate openings are very popular right now, and robo openers are pretty much as close to a build order loss against those as you can get. Stargate > Robo > Twilight > Stargate IF YOU ARE DOING AN ALLIN. Ultimately you want to get to Archon Colossus so a Stargate opening if it doesn't do some sort of damage puts you behind in tech. Keep in mind it's very simple to go robo, defend Oracle harass and get ahead. It's much harder to defend a committed 3 gate + Phoenix build opening robo. I wouldn't necessarily say X is popular right now. As soon as more people start using X more often then the thing that counters it starts to creep into the meta. | ||
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sWs
United States409 Posts
On December 11 2013 04:39 darkness wrote: Is robo inappropriate in PvP nowadays? I played one PvP game where I lost to gate/stargate play and my opponent said robo wasn't good these days. Your opponent was wrong. Robo is still king as long as you dont die to phoenix/oracle harass. In the lategame a robo army is way stronger than a SG army because storm destroys voidrays. As for the potential to end the game, going SG has much more potential to win with economic dmg rather than opening blink or robo, but in the end its just a coinflip because you can die to 3g's/4g's, blink all ins, etc. I personally go 1g into robo most of my games, unless i get a read on their build from probe scouting or I can metagame my opponent. | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13379 Posts
On December 11 2013 05:04 aldochillbro wrote: robo will always have it's place in the metagame. it's weaker right now because of the oracle buff but it doesn't mean that you can't do it. i would recommend going some form of stargate but 1 gate into expand then robo can still work well, it's just weak to stargate play. I'll add to this. Robo is fine, its good vs blink and its good vs DT play. Though it is weak to a dedicated all in stargate play. So, in my opinion, if you are going robo its best to do something like a 1 or 2 gate expo into robo for the economic advantage. Its hard to hold a stargate all in on one base as it is so if they go for econ damaging stargate play then the extra nexus helps you even that out. Personally, I like DT openings but thats just me. As others are saying due to the meta of stargate being very popular pvp opening blind robo off one base is not the best idea, just because you open yourself up to the possibility that you get build order disadvantage just because the meta is so heavy on stargate play atm. | ||
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1a2a3aPro
Canada227 Posts
On December 11 2013 06:08 DinoMight wrote: It's much harder to defend a committed 3 gate + Phoenix build opening robo. I would say it's impossible for diamond+ as long as your opponent controls correctly. This is about as hard a counter as you can have in PvP, outside of something like "he went DTs and I have no detection". It's not the best versus proxy SG or in-base SG pressure, but it's holdable. I think it's BO loss if he goes all-in with 3gate SG though. | ||
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-Napkin
United States41 Posts
so i basically defend defend defend never agress.. gate cyber msc nexus (double gas right when done) 2xgate forge and twilight templar archive/charge storm make 3 templars 2xgate or (3rd)nexus (which ever is first depends on terran) 3xgate 3x robo gates once i have 6 templars, push with 6 coli win games because they have such low vikings end game army is usually 6-10stalkers 6templars 6coli 3obs zealots I basically just go for super super early templars and charge to defend against early aggression, i can easily defend stim timings, also this is for standard play, if i scout a mine drop or something i obviously throw in an early robo, etc.. make make some stalkers and a cut a couple templars if they are heavy on drops.. Just wondering if I can take this style with me to gm and still win. I have the gas to do this much teching because of the early 3/4th gases, by the time my natural finishes i have 6 probes there ready to put in gas. note: By time time anyone is close to having ghosts out, i will have 3 coli. note: I will have atleast 3 storms (Usually more) by any sort of scv pull timing) I have yet to encounter anyone with ghosts at my front door before my coli are out, the storms are usually just to scare off the terran while i go 3robo coli | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
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weikor
Austria580 Posts
On December 11 2013 21:42 darkness wrote: I see that some people rally point probes from the main base's nexus (once the base is saturated) to their natural. Aren't more minerals lost this way? I thought one large transfer was enough. economy wise it doesnt matter if you transfer 5 probes at once or 11111, you will always lose the same mining time. however once you get to 2 base its much easier to have one base with 16 probes in minerals and just keep rallying into your second base. a) your natural is usually safer from drops/ harassment becauee your army is there b) when your third finishes you dont need to pick probes for it from 2 bases,, or with a 50% transfer you would need to notice the full saturation and change the rally point at a pretty active time in the game | ||
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weikor
Austria580 Posts
On December 11 2013 16:08 -Napkin wrote: Hey, high master toss here, wondering if anyone.... ive seen this post a few times and its so hard to answer. im sure you can get into Gm with this, then again if you are MC you can stargate all in into gm. vs terran you dont "need" agression to win, however at some point it can be easier to win with it because terrans will have so much stuff. Im sure you know how much of the game is about mechanics decisions and micro at this level. Also you will probably face the same opponents more often in higher leagues, letting plays that work because they surprise opponent be less effective. templar collossus observer upgrades. sounds good for pvt. play around with it and adapt your build if you encounter problems | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On December 11 2013 22:48 weikor wrote: ive seen this post a few times and its so hard to answer. im sure you can get into Gm with this, then again if you are MC you can stargate all in into gm. vs terran you dont "need" agression to win, however at some point it can be easier to win with it because terrans will have so much stuff. Im sure you know how much of the game is about mechanics decisions and micro at this level. Also you will probably face the same opponents more often in higher leagues, letting plays that work because they surprise opponent be less effective. templar collossus observer upgrades. sounds good for pvt. play around with it and adapt your build if you encounter problems I read observer upgrades and loled. Who gets it???? But more seriously, I've found that observer speed is actually SUPER useful. Especially if you use them to patrol or if you want to dodge a scan. | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On December 11 2013 22:38 weikor wrote: economy wise it doesnt matter if you transfer 5 probes at once or 11111, you will always lose the same mining time. This isn't correct. Transfering workers when you have less workers is worse for your economy, for example transfering 1 probe when you have 20 of them, then 1 when you have 21, then 22, etc. is worse than transfering 5 when you have 24 probes, if we consider only the mining time lost, because you will have a higher % of income reduction if you have idle workers when you have less of them in total. However this doesn't mean that transfering workers all at once is always more effective, because if you have more than ~16 workers (ideal saturation) those extra workers mine less effectively, therefore from this point of view it would be better to transfer them one at a time. My general rule is to set the rally point of my nexus to its own mineral line until it has 16 workers, then rally it to the closest nexus which hasn't 16 workers yet and so on. Anyway, it's not very important. | ||
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Redfish
United States142 Posts
On December 12 2013 00:26 DinoMight wrote: I read observer upgrades and loled. Who gets it???? But more seriously, I've found that observer speed is actually SUPER useful. Especially if you use them to patrol or if you want to dodge a scan. I'd wager that you misread this. He likely means "Templar, Colossus, Observer, Upgrades." It's actually an interesting take on the matchup, going for three robos like that to hit a nasty huge colossus timing before lots of vikings hit - I'd be interested to try it. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On December 12 2013 00:52 Redfish wrote: I'd wager that you misread this. He likely means "Templar, Colossus, Observer, Upgrades." It's actually an interesting take on the matchup, going for three robos like that to hit a nasty huge colossus timing before lots of vikings hit - I'd be interested to try it. Lol i know that's why it was funny cuz that's how i initially read it. I've been opening oracle into double Robo Colossus and Double Stargate phoenix. Then they overmake vikings and by that time you have a few Templar and wreck them. It sounds silly but it's really really good. The best part is the rage quitting. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On December 11 2013 22:38 weikor wrote: economy wise it doesnt matter if you transfer 5 probes at once or 11111, you will always lose the same mining time. however once you get to 2 base its much easier to have one base with 16 probes in minerals and just keep rallying into your second base. a) your natural is usually safer from drops/ harassment becauee your army is there b) when your third finishes you dont need to pick probes for it from 2 bases,, or with a 50% transfer you would need to notice the full saturation and change the rally point at a pretty active time in the game This is wrong in a lot of ways. It's a proven fact: rallying workers after reaching optimal saturation (16 on minerals) is more economical. Once your natural becomes saturated, you should re-rally your main nexus to your main mineral patches unless you're planning on taking a super fast 3rd, otherwise you're just wasting mining efficiency. This is a little different for zerg and terran players who may benefit from having more workers at their natural early on (i.e. pulling drones to defend a bunker rush then setting them back to mine at the natural or having 5-6 SCVs at your natural to repair your bunker). But overall, it still stands true that rallying after reaching optimal saturation is more economical. On December 12 2013 00:26 DinoMight wrote: I read observer upgrades and loled. Who gets it???? But more seriously, I've found that observer speed is actually SUPER useful. Especially if you use them to patrol or if you want to dodge a scan. Also, observer speed is actually a really big deal in lategame scenarios, especially against terran. You want to be able to dodge observer snipes and/or get fast access to another observer if yours DOES get sniped. | ||
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sWs
United States409 Posts
On December 11 2013 16:08 -Napkin wrote: Hey, high master toss here, wondering if anyone could comment on my general pvt build (no specific times, just the general idea) so i basically defend defend defend never agress.. gate cyber msc nexus (double gas right when done) 2xgate forge and twilight templar archive/charge storm make 3 templars 2xgate or (3rd)nexus (which ever is first depends on terran) 3xgate 3x robo gates once i have 6 templars, push with 6 coli win games because they have such low vikings end game army is usually 6-10stalkers 6templars 6coli 3obs zealots I basically just go for super super early templars and charge to defend against early aggression, i can easily defend stim timings, also this is for standard play, if i scout a mine drop or something i obviously throw in an early robo, etc.. make make some stalkers and a cut a couple templars if they are heavy on drops.. Just wondering if I can take this style with me to gm and still win. I have the gas to do this much teching because of the early 3/4th gases, by the time my natural finishes i have 6 probes there ready to put in gas. note: By time time anyone is close to having ghosts out, i will have 3 coli. note: I will have atleast 3 storms (Usually more) by any sort of scv pull timing) I have yet to encounter anyone with ghosts at my front door before my coli are out, the storms are usually just to scare off the terran while i go 3robo coli You shouldn't make three robo's at the same time when switching to colusus.. also you should probably have like 8-10 templar before you switch. 4-5 in army 1-2 per expansion, and when switching to robo you can make 2 robos max, more is overkill. 8 gates off two base, 10-14 gates off three base+ | ||
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