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Just come back from hiatus after basically not playing since the start of HOTs. Was ex masters but crawled my way back to diamond recently. I've been noticing common patterns in my games and not sure how to respond to it appropriately.
P v T: Pretty much all the games go as such, i 1 GFE into fast templars or colossus with double forge upgrade until about 11.30-12.00min where i take a 3rd. My opponent will reaper expand then take 3rds around 9min (tempted to say quick but maybe normal in the meta) and i feel like i'm on the backfoot all game. Eventually 20 mins into the game there will be a decisive battle where i either land 5 storms or get all my HTs emped and gg. Because I feel like i'm playing from behind all game i dont feel like i can afford to throw some zealots to harrass as not looking at ur HTs for any prolonged time can lose the game (whereas in WoL the ability to take quick 3rds gave u the option of just throwing away some zealots).
PvZ: Most games involve FFE. I geneally open stargate for some phoniex harass and scouting. I've basically convinced myself that from my scout i will take a third and either add a robo (2x robo) and 3 base timing attack or add a stargate (2x stargate) and 3 base timeing attack depending on what i see. Whenever i play for a 4th i will eventually lose in a long grinding game.
So in short my questions are. For PvT is what i see normal an the current meta? Are there ways to expand earlier or not get left in a "i wish my storm lands" senario? PvZ are there ways to transition into the late game without a timing attack because once the Zerg gets the exnomy they need and stock up on resources, i feel like that can tech switch so quickly you cant keep up.
Just come back from hiatus after basically not playing since the start of HOTs. Was ex masters but crawled my way back to diamond recently. I've been noticing common patterns in my games and not sure how to respond to it appropriately.
P v T: Pretty much all the games go as such, i 1 GFE into fast templars or colossus with double forge upgrade until about 11.30-12.00min where i take a 3rd. My opponent will reaper expand then take 3rds around 9min (tempted to say quick but maybe normal in the meta) and i feel like i'm on the backfoot all game. Eventually 20 mins into the game there will be a decisive battle where i either land 5 storms or get all my HTs emped and gg. Because I feel like i'm playing from behind all game i dont feel like i can afford to throw some zealots to harrass as not looking at ur HTs for any prolonged time can lose the game (whereas in WoL the ability to take quick 3rds gave u the option of just throwing away some zealots).
PvZ: Most games involve FFE. I geneally open stargate for some phoniex harass and scouting. I've basically convinced myself that from my scout i will take a third and either add a robo (2x robo) and 3 base timing attack or add a stargate (2x stargate) and 3 base timeing attack depending on what i see. Whenever i play for a 4th i will eventually lose in a long grinding game.
So in short my questions are. For PvT is what i see normal an the current meta? Are there ways to expand earlier or not get left in a "i wish my storm lands" senario? PvZ are there ways to transition into the late game without a timing attack because once the Zerg gets the exnomy they need and stock up on resources, i feel like that can tech switch so quickly you cant keep up.
PvT:
Your initial observer scout really needs to be poking around for a 3rd CC vs more barracks. If your opponent goes CC -> 3rax -> 3rd CC -> extra rax, you should take your 3rd immediately before adding gates 4-6. Not responding like this is the one of the easiest ways to get out-muscled in the mid game and fall behind (and die to SCV pulls). Otherwise, just hang in there and focus on doing everything right. This is my hardest matchup, and perhaps the most skill-based matchup for protoss.
PvZ:
Some solid advice: if the zerg takes an early 4th without pressuring, just walk over to the 4th, snipe it, and recall, even if you only have 1 colossus. If you're getting to the point where you can take a 3rd base and defend it, you're doing great. All you need now is to just dial up the aggression a little bit with army pokes, warp prism harassment, and/or better phoenix harassment. The late game situations are difficult, but if you can keep on mostly even income throughout the game and prevent the zerg player from just teching straight up to hive, you can step into a comfortable late game with several tech structures and dozens of gateways.
Hope this helps! It's always better to post replays for more specific advice! :D
I'm having some wild success in pvt with a phoenix/chargelot/ht midgame and would like a little input here.
Open with 1 gate expo into stargate. If he scouts it with reaper, I don't build an oracle and instead make a forge and go straight into charge If he doesn't scout with reaper or otherwise I make one oracle and continue on with the plan If he opens gas but I see no reaper, I get the forge a bit earlier so I can make cannons in my mineral line Around the 10 min mark I start phoenix production and go up to 3 and stop
So far I've been able to have charge, storm, +2 armor for the medivac push > with a collosus transition ready upon taking my third
I think a replay would be nice and also the added information of which league we are talking. Just from what you've written I am a bit confused as to why you only go up to 3 phoenixes. This should not be enough to kill medivacs fast nor to take on vikings, thus being more of a burden than anything else.
Yeah generally phoenix styles incorporate higher numbers to get air superiority, like 6+ Also I think colossi have better synergy with phoenix, I'd be so worried about storming them I think if you open double oracle teching to colossus is the safer transition, rather than trying to get storm (you'll die to scv pulls)
so protoss is the race that benefits most from mind games. my question is what mindgames do you guys play on ladder or see pros do in games? This can be anything from pvz going 10 gate into stalker and picking off overlords to faking a tech route. Preferably specific scenarios.
On December 04 2013 06:41 aldochillbro wrote: so protoss is the race that benefits most from mind games. my question is what mindgames do you guys play on ladder or see pros do in games? This can be anything from pvz going 10 gate into stalker and picking off overlords to faking a tech route. Preferably specific scenarios.
Off the top of my head....
1) Protoss players scouting on 9 in PvZ when doing a gate expand. This fools the zerg player into thinking it's a FFE and allows you to block their hatch if they try to go hatch first or triple hatch before pool. You also have the mind games of building a pylon then cancelling it to scare your opponent into pulling a ton of drones to defend.
2) In PvP, any kind of tech switch is fairly confusing. For instance, if you open with a robo expand then get a dark shrine, you can catch a lot of players offguard. Likewise, robo expands into stargate are quite good and sometimes set you up for a powerful phoenix/immortal all-in.
3) PvT, going 1-2 colossus without range into templar. It can cause the terran to overmake vikings and get outmuscled when you switch to templar.
On December 04 2013 06:41 aldochillbro wrote: so protoss is the race that benefits most from mind games. my question is what mindgames do you guys play on ladder or see pros do in games? This can be anything from pvz going 10 gate into stalker and picking off overlords to faking a tech route. Preferably specific scenarios.
2) In PvP, any kind of tech switch is fairly confusing. For instance, if you open with a robo expand then get a dark shrine, you can catch a lot of players offguard. Likewise, robo expands into stargate are quite good and sometimes set you up for a powerful phoenix/immortal all-in.
If it works so well why didn't you do that today?
HEYYYOOOO sorry, I've been waiting all day to take this one cheap shot at you.
Honestly the advice is true, but Aldo, I think you should focus on mechanics before you focus on mindgames to be entirely honest if you are looking to get better. That being said, random mind games can be fun sometimes.
I think a replay would be nice and also the added information of which league we are talking. Just from what you've written I am a bit confused as to why you only go up to 3 phoenixes. This should not be enough to kill medivacs fast nor to take on vikings, thus being more of a burden than anything else.
Because 300/200 ( 5 phoenix ) is I think better spent on another templar or 2 or zealots then 2 extra phoenix. Also I'm not so sure I can get 5 phoenix out without delaying some of my tech. Also I'm not trying to attain air superiority with them, I really really really don't like that style ( phoenix collosus ) because good terrans will just get 2 starport double reactor then when they get a critical mass of vikings will just keep their bio back while they shift click all your collosi completely ignoring your phoenix.
They are just there to deter drops and if a terran does go for one they're going to lose it. 3 phoenix doesn't kill a medi very fast but they normally kill them fast enough in most cases.
The 3 phoenix are just for the medivac timing to help me secure the third pretty much. If he tries to hero drop, he doesn't get away like he can if I'm just on cannons/ht for defense. Not to mention if he does decide to engage in a straight up fight he can't just lift off and run either.
On December 02 2013 07:23 suicideyear wrote: i stopped playing about 5-6 months ago and now i'm playing like a retard. i don't remember anything. i played terran and switched to protoss now so i just about became a beginner now, but i'm doing shit like walling myself in to my first base and not realizing it until i try to make a nexus in the natural or whatever. i need help from square one i guess.
is there a video like filtersc - bronze to masters that goes over protoss mechanics and everything.
I've been struggling with this exact same issue! Filter himself was in the middle of doing a Protoss tutorial, but then after saying he'd produce content more consistently, he halted all work on it. I made a thread about trying to pick up where he left off, but it's almost certainly buried by now.
Filter was going to do big 2base attacks in every matchup off of a 1gate FE into a robo. I'm not sure what the specifics of that would be, but I'm guessing it would be a big gateway timing attack with +1 and some immortals? I'm really hoping he'll pick up where he left off soon. : (
Edit: Maybe someone in this thread could help out and provide the outline/benchmarks for a 2base robo push off a 1gate FE? =)
On December 04 2013 06:41 aldochillbro wrote: so protoss is the race that benefits most from mind games. my question is what mindgames do you guys play on ladder or see pros do in games? This can be anything from pvz going 10 gate into stalker and picking off overlords to faking a tech route. Preferably specific scenarios.
2) In PvP, any kind of tech switch is fairly confusing. For instance, if you open with a robo expand then get a dark shrine, you can catch a lot of players offguard. Likewise, robo expands into stargate are quite good and sometimes set you up for a powerful phoenix/immortal all-in.
If it works so well why didn't you do that today?
HEYYYOOOO sorry, I've been waiting all day to take this one cheap shot at you.
Honestly the advice is true, but Aldo, I think you should focus on mechanics before you focus on mindgames to be entirely honest if you are looking to get better. That being said, random mind games can be fun sometimes.
<3
Oh and in general, stargate into templar PvT builds are viable but: 1) Phoenixes are useless with them. It's already tricky to hold off dedicated medivac timings if your oracle(s) don't pay for themsleves, if you also invest into paper planes you will just die outright. Off a FE stargate opening you are better off getting your key tech up, in this case archons/storm and of course charge. Paying 300 gas to lift 3 marines when he has 25+, and maybe snipe a medivac if he loses absolutely everything else while you still have a decent army (so basically, the terran loses the game anyway) is not what i'd call a good investment. 2) Playing obs-less is really, really hard. Oracles help in spotting drops and cleaning up the smaller ones, but no reasonable amount of stargate units will save you from 3+ medivacs dropping. If you add hundreds of gas invested into phoenixes (which, again, i don't find useful) you are in an even worse spot. 3) Later on in the game you need a healthy templar count, upgrades and colossi switches. Hundreds of gas in stargate tech delay all these key things. The sole advantage of a few phoenixes is sniping retreating medivacs. While that's fine, the huge delay they add to your key tech (especially in the early/midgame when you're on 2base and branching off into templar) is not worth the tradeoff
An oracle (and eventually a second) is ok i guess but a bit risky.
I don't think phoenixes are useless. Especially if you play without observer those phoenixes are the only thing that keeps terran from dropping everywhere. While usually you could discourage it with templar for feedback you're going to need most of your templar with your army with this build because of the army advantage that terran will have in straight up fights.
Liquid'HerO does the oracle -> phoenix -> templar build a lot. I'd say the weakest point of that build is a bio/medivac timing with 2-4 medivacs but that's why HerO gets a safety cannon if he feels that he can't delay it for long enough. Almost every terran will try to hit that timing but with phoenixes out it suddenly turns into a huge commitment. If terran loses their army then all of their medivacs are gone too and protoss is basically free to do whatever they want for the rest of the game. If there are no phoenixes out then I don't think your army is strong enough to survive, especially because you're playing without observer and a doom drop could happen any second. If that gets into your base while you're even a bit out of position it's pretty bad. The phoenixes basically only allow terran to attack the front which is easier to defend with forcefields when they're in danger of losing their medivacs. That makes it a lot easier to focus your defense without splitting up your army.
I've only tried the build a few times but I always felt a lot safer with phoenixes. It depends on the game though I guess, I'd say a phoenix followup is especially potent against a 1rax FE -> mine drop because of lower unit count for terran.
1) It's the oracles not the phoenixes that are the key to drop defense. If you notice, every stargate pvt player gets a second oracle if he loses the first one, and often they'll make two and keep both alive. Revelation is far more powerful than the dps of phoenixes.
2) Do you have a link to relevant games played by hero? You are right that if the Terran overcommits he loses all his medivacs and is fucked, but that's true for the vast majority of builds, plus if he just did it vs maru...he will ALWAYS commit to a timing or close enough. If the terran plays passively because either he realizes what's going on or simply decided to play passive for a bit and hit a later timing, you just sacrificed hundreds of gas worth of templar and upgrades for very little gain. Phoenixes in the midgame are a shitty harassment unit vs Terran anyway. If he just does it a bunch on stream, he's likely just showing off, otherwise we'd be counting shit like warp prism speed colossus drops as viable PvT openings. Games played on pro's streams aren't a great indication of wether a build is viable or powerful imo.
3) I'm not convinced the terran can't just yolo it and doom drop with 4+ medivacs anyway, not giving a shit about your phoenixes. If you don't catch up immediately you will never stop all (or most) of the medivacs.
4) I think playing obs-less for the hell of it is so hard, it's not worth doing. Stargate>templar in general is a decent build to mix things up, but it's by no means a solid standard build IMO (unless you're sOs xD)
I'm gonna try to find some but I'm pretty sure HerO did it in HSC against Taeja in their third game (he didn't play very well though and lost to said timing) and he's done it a lot in tournaments ever since SWL against Maru. He did it against Innovation too at DH Bucharest and in WCS America.
Against Taeja in HSC - First oracle lost with only 1 SCV killed probably lost the game. Also phoenixes out of position for the fight in his natural + late overcharge and such. Thorzain talks about Titan doing this build against him too, says it's really strong.
Against Heart in WCS America - I think phoenixes were the only thing keeping him alive in that game. If those phoenixes aren't out then Heart is basically free to split off two medivacs and drop in the main even if there is another oracle. I like the idea of rushing charge and armor upgrades before storm actually, I think it's a better long term solution and with good phoenix control should do the job well enough too. Lots of thrown zealots, Heart's earlier third and I'd say late colossus transition after stabilizing gave Heart the SCV pull timing though.
Against Innovation at DH Bucharest - I think HerO's scouting wasn't very good this game, he didn't know about the Ghost transition until they were out and then got caught horribly out of position otherwise I think he'd have won the game after the zealot harass at third and natural.
Against Maru in SWL - This is just a weird game with both players overextending all the time
I think I saw sOs throw in this build once recently and I know that Titan did it at HSC against Taeja and looked really good before throwing his army away or something. I mean, 3 out 4 of those games are losses but I don't think HerO played very well in any of these. I've seen him play that build a lot better on stream and sOs seemed pretty comfortable with it too.
That's the way I've felt about HerO ever since PL ended though T_T
On December 05 2013 03:41 DarkLordOlli wrote: I'm gonna try to find some but I'm pretty sure HerO did it in HSC against Taeja in their third game (he didn't play very well though and lost to said timing) and he's done it a lot in tournaments ever since SWL against Maru. He did it against Innovation too at DH Bucharest and in WCS America.
Against Taeja in HSC - First oracle lost with only 1 SCV killed probably lost the game. Also phoenixes out of position for the fight in his natural + late overcharge and such. Thorzain talks about Titan doing this build against him too, says it's really strong.
Against Heart in WCS America - I think phoenixes were the only thing keeping him alive in that game. If those phoenixes aren't out then Heart is basically free to split off two medivacs and drop in the main even if there is another oracle. I like the idea of rushing charge and armor upgrades before storm actually, I think it's a better long term solution and with good phoenix control should do the job well enough too. Lots of thrown zealots, Heart's earlier third and I'd say late colossus transition after stabilizing gave Heart the SCV pull timing though.
Against Innovation at DH Bucharest - I think HerO's scouting wasn't very good this game, he didn't know about the Ghost transition until they were out and then got caught horribly out of position otherwise I think he'd have won the game after the zealot harass at third and natural.
Against Maru in SWL - This is just a weird game with both players overextending all the time
I think I saw sOs throw in this build once recently and I know that Titan did it at HSC against Taeja and looked really good before throwing his army away or something. I mean, 3 out 4 of those games are losses but I don't think HerO played very well in any of these. I've seen him play that build a lot better on stream and sOs seemed pretty comfortable with it too.
That's the way I've felt about HerO ever since PL ended though T_T
to add to this parting vs bomber on frost in redbull battlegrounds:
is there a high master/grandmaster protoss that can upload some replays ? I have a huge problems with current timings in my builds since i made a 3 months break i cant rly find any replays and VoDs arent optimal to learn timings since the caster can show anything
On December 07 2013 03:03 OPDream wrote: How do you defend terran's stim timing before 9 min? It's hard to hold even with photon overcharge.
It really is in the photon overcharge though. It's meant to punish greedy builds, so if you're playing greedy, you'll take damage. However, if you can spot the abnormally large number of barracks or the stim with a fast Observer or Hallucination, you'll be able to start warping in units and adding gateways instead of that double forge you want so badly
Check out Day[9]s special on sOs PvT, he goes over these points and showcases a few ways you can spot extra barracks early.
On December 07 2013 02:28 Mantaza wrote: is there a high master/grandmaster protoss that can upload some replays ? I have a huge problems with current timings in my builds since i made a 3 months break i cant rly find any replays and VoDs arent optimal to learn timings since the caster can show anything
As far as build orders for timings go, you can find those on Liquipedia and right here in the strategy section. VoDs should be good enough for you to see the execution as long as you can find the build order written down somewhere.
EPT
