EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 201
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
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Garnet
Vietnam9016 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
 That said, the latest balance changes don't impact the toss matchups very heavily. The op is just generally slightly outdated. | ||
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Ravenoz
Germany16 Posts
so I just played this PvZ and i have a general question about my strategy. http://ggtracker.com/matches/4419956 I open up with 14 gate, 15 gas, 17 nexus, double zealot, 20 core, MSC (MC did a similar thing in the WCS finals against soulkey i think). I then proceed to do a little push with 2 zealots, 1 stalker and the msc to pressure and recall if i see any huge number of lings. I then go into robo to do a sentry immortal push with 6 gates behind which i get my third. Is this a good followup of the initial pressure? Are there better followups to this? I find my self rarely doing any damage because i get overwhelmed by roaches or hydras. After the push i just get all the tech in the book (sOs style) and react to what my opponent is doing. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On November 28 2013 04:16 Ravenoz wrote: Hi everyone, so I just played this PvZ and i have a general question about my strategy. http://ggtracker.com/matches/4419956 I open up with 14 gate, 15 gas, 17 nexus, double zealot, 20 core, MSC (MC did a similar thing in the WCS finals against soulkey i think). I then proceed to do a little push with 2 zealots, 1 stalker and the msc to pressure and recall if i see any huge number of lings. I then go into robo to do a sentry immortal push with 6 gates behind which i get my third. Is this a good followup of the initial pressure? Are there better followups to this? I find my self rarely doing any damage because i get overwhelmed by roaches or hydras. After the push i just get all the tech in the book (sOs style) and react to what my opponent is doing. The opening is not that bad. At first, I questioned a 9 scout, but if you're doing an opening like this, you're specifically going to be looking for gas so you can react accordingly to a speedling/roach all-in. That said, the zealot/zealot/stalker/MSC was a success and looks like a really cool move. HOWEVER, your robo was about a minute late, you interject a twilight council in the middle of immortal production, and you don't move out of your base until 11:00. Metaphorically, you're shooting yourself in the foot with your own build. If your plan is to go for a followup immortal push, you need to streamline it and make sure it hits before 10:00, otherwise you'll get run over by zerg numbers every time. Immortal pushes are designed to hit the zerg player before they get optimum drone saturation (~66) while the protoss player is already on 2-base saturation; in essence, you're hitting a timing where the protoss player and the zerg player have similar economies, which is only good for the protoss. That said, I suggest you focus purely on making sure your immortal push hits on time, even going all-in just to make sure you practice the build perfectly. If you're asking for other followups, stargate/warpgate pressure and a fast 3rd is always a good option. You can also go for a blink/+2 pressure (with ~5 sentries) into a 3rd as well, though that's a lot less solid. | ||
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iLevitate
United States225 Posts
HALP. edit: and it like 5 spines/spores each bases | ||
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playa
United States1284 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On November 28 2013 06:18 iLevitate wrote: What the hell yo... stop playing for 3 months, just resume, and every zerg go Swarmhost @@. I couldn't even tech to tempest nor play long game.. HALP. edit: and it like 5 spines/spores each bases Insufficient information. Feed post with replay and real analysis. Try again. On November 28 2013 07:42 playa wrote: A what's best question... In phoenix vs phoenix games, is it better to get the range upgrade far faster than your opponent, or is a faster second stargate/more phoenix better? Although phoenix vs. phoenix is incredibly rare, I've seen most pro players generally for a second stargate before fleet beacon. | ||
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On November 28 2013 07:42 playa wrote: A what's best question... In phoenix vs phoenix games, is it better to get the range upgrade far faster than your opponent, or is a faster second stargate/more phoenix better? You need to do second stargate: if you rush fleet beacon there will be a moment where he's up 2-3 pheonix over you, maybe more, and he can just wipe out your air fleet if he's paying attention. You can afford the fleet beacon later because it becomes harder to judge phoenix counts, as well as the fact that you can more afford cannons or stalkers to support your phoenix defensively if you need to in order to survive to getting range done. | ||
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TarLaPaN
United States113 Posts
On November 26 2013 08:30 SC2John wrote: On 2-player maps, your scout arrives around 14, so it makes no sense to go forge blindly. You should always be thinking nexus first and only reactively drop a forge if you scout an early pool. Olli mentioned 17 forge, which is good against slightly later pools like 12-14 on maps with short rush distances. Otherwise, there's no reason to cut your economy by like a full minute blindly. On 4-player maps, I'm not against forge first as you can't really reliably scout your opponent and react in time to deal with a 6pool; Frost is the exception because of the reason stated above. Wait so you don't have to go forge first on frost? Do you scout with 2 probes? | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Ravenoz
Germany16 Posts
On November 28 2013 04:54 SC2John wrote: + Show Spoiler + On November 28 2013 04:16 Ravenoz wrote: Hi everyone, so I just played this PvZ and i have a general question about my strategy. http://ggtracker.com/matches/4419956 I open up with 14 gate, 15 gas, 17 nexus, double zealot, 20 core, MSC (MC did a similar thing in the WCS finals against soulkey i think). I then proceed to do a little push with 2 zealots, 1 stalker and the msc to pressure and recall if i see any huge number of lings. I then go into robo to do a sentry immortal push with 6 gates behind which i get my third. Is this a good followup of the initial pressure? Are there better followups to this? I find my self rarely doing any damage because i get overwhelmed by roaches or hydras. After the push i just get all the tech in the book (sOs style) and react to what my opponent is doing. The opening is not that bad. At first, I questioned a 9 scout, but if you're doing an opening like this, you're specifically going to be looking for gas so you can react accordingly to a speedling/roach all-in. That said, the zealot/zealot/stalker/MSC was a success and looks like a really cool move. HOWEVER, your robo was about a minute late, you interject a twilight council in the middle of immortal production, and you don't move out of your base until 11:00. Metaphorically, you're shooting yourself in the foot with your own build. If your plan is to go for a followup immortal push, you need to streamline it and make sure it hits before 10:00, otherwise you'll get run over by zerg numbers every time. Immortal pushes are designed to hit the zerg player before they get optimum drone saturation (~66) while the protoss player is already on 2-base saturation; in essence, you're hitting a timing where the protoss player and the zerg player have similar economies, which is only good for the protoss. That said, I suggest you focus purely on making sure your immortal push hits on time, even going all-in just to make sure you practice the build perfectly. If you're asking for other followups, stargate/warpgate pressure and a fast 3rd is always a good option. You can also go for a blink/+2 pressure (with ~5 sentries) into a 3rd as well, though that's a lot less solid. thanks SC2John! As always a very detailed and helpful answer | ||
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kuruptt
Canada168 Posts
Is it better to do a gate expand against zerg now? I never done it before and have always been going FFE. It seems the meta now is gate expand and that it's better then FFE? Which one should I focus on primarily? And for terrans it seems like everyone is just skipping collosus and going straight for storms. What do you guys think? If you guys have updated links to the build orders that would be great! | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Storm first vs colo first is also subjective. I personally have always loved storm builds (and in fact wrote a very indepth guide on some of them), but colosuss is viable too. Both have their pros and cons. For a beginner, i recommend opening Colosuss because it's much less micro intensive. | ||
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lib_
Germany22 Posts
i have following build (msc expand) for PvZ: 9 pylon (chronoboost x4 on nexus) 13 gate 14 gas 16 pylon 18 core 21 warp gate **cut probe production** 21 nexus (3:45) 23 MSC 23 gas 23 pylon (at natural) **resume probe production** 26 stalker 30 gateway x2 (5:00) 32 robo (obs first) Can you tell me if i can use this exact build also in PvT and PvP, or does it differ in the different match ups? i am playing hots for 5 days now (wol plat/dia with T and Z) and looking for builds i can practise. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On November 29 2013 00:37 lib_ wrote: hi everyone, i have following build (msc expand) for PvZ: 9 pylon (chronoboost x4 on nexus) 13 gate 14 gas 16 pylon 18 core 21 warp gate **cut probe production** 21 nexus (3:45) 23 MSC 23 gas 23 pylon (at natural) **resume probe production** 26 stalker 30 gateway x2 (5:00) 32 robo (obs first) Can you tell me if i can use this exact build also in PvT and PvP, or does it differ in the different match ups? i am playing hots for 5 days now (wol plat/dia with T and Z) and looking for builds i can practise. This is correct for the most part, just get your 2nd pylon before your second gas. Vs T, you want to get your robo before extra gateways and usually 2-3 stalkers + a sentry are made out of the initial gateway. Vs P, it's completely different. You HAVE to get a stalker or sentry before nexus and there are a ton of threats to worry about. You also want to get your robo before extra gates so you can get an immortal in time to deal with any kind of early pressure. I suggest looking at this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=422646 Vs Z, you always want to go either warp prism or immortal first if you're going robo, and usually that translates to a 2-base timing. Going stargate in PvZ is a more economical play, if that's what you're interested in. Here's a fairly ironed out PvZ robo build with a fairly identical build: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=430061 | ||
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aldochillbro
187 Posts
1. how do you play against the old style pvz where z goes 2base upgraded lings into a third base and optimally ultras(or infestors depending on what z scouts)? I try to take a third, but is there an ironed out way to do it? 2. pvz there's an old opener where toss goes nexus first then forge in base. I know the advantage is that it's better against early pools, but how exactly would you deal with a 14 pool and 4-6 lings coming to your base? | ||
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weikor
Austria580 Posts
as for the upgraded lings zealot upgrades are very important for this, you can go double forge zealot archon into immortals vs the ultras in genral building placement is the most important thing vs this. walloffs to hold your natural, and defending the surface areas of your 3rd nexus and cannons with gws and pylons. you want to track his third and the timing of his hive, just dont take a third way too early | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On November 29 2013 11:51 aldochillbro wrote: hey guys, I have a couple questions. 1. how do you play against the old style pvz where z goes 2base upgraded lings into a third base and optimally ultras(or infestors depending on what z scouts)? I try to take a third, but is there an ironed out way to do it? 2. pvz there's an old opener where toss goes nexus first then forge in base. I know the advantage is that it's better against early pools, but how exactly would you deal with a 14 pool and 4-6 lings coming to your base? I'm not sure about your first question, but regarding the second one - get your cannon as soon as possible and make sure lings have to take damage to go through it. A well-timed/placed cannon should do the trick if it's a good map for this (2 building + 2 pylon wall). You can forgo scouting to get a forge a bit earlier - and therefore a cannon as well- with the extra minerals you gather. If you usually go 17 nexus, you may want to try 16 nexus 16 forge 18 pylon gateway cannon to get your cannon up a bit earlier. Rain does this all the time (he spends his third chrono at 17) and Parting did the same for a while too. Other than that, if lings do get in, you should get a zealot out asap. Your gateway should finish at about the same time lings get in, so focus on starting your zealot as soon as that happens. | ||
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klup
France612 Posts
Just one advice. don't loose the oracle like sOs did multiple time recently in DH Winter. keeping the oracle alive is extremely important to delay the terran midgame push. Going for the push off 2 bases with chargelot archon templar can often end the game in any league under master. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On a serious note, if the stargate gets scouted and does nothing, you are behind for sure, so it is a risk, if a very calculated one. I dislike double forge together with storm (and i'm probably the one that goes pvt storm the most here) because it really cuts too heavily in your gas, so either 3/3 or storm and a good templar count always get delayed. Finally, pushing out with chargelot/templar is a double edged sword. If you engage in the middle of the map, or on your half of it, the terran cna just kite back forever and kill your zealots before you can land any storms. To really push with that army composition you need to manipulate his army movement with things like a drop, zealot runby, or maybe a dt at his third depending on your opening and how the game went. In general though, FUCK YEAH TEMPLAR PVT | ||
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