EPTWhy do YOU think stephano has returned at HSL...
PvP build, Use it
The HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 199
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Eraz0rZ
Netherlands47 Posts
Why do YOU think stephano has returned at HSL... PvP build, Use it | ||
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philip697
United Kingdom123 Posts
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ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On November 22 2013 20:56 philip697 wrote: What is the 100% correct response to a terran blocking your nat with an eng bay? Bearing in my I nearly always skip 1st zealot. Queue up a zealot, wait for it, then wait for it to kill the end bay, THEN expand? Seems it would make you retardedly late? Maybe drop 2 extra gateways and fake front door pressure? Nope, you are exactly correct the first time. The reason you queue the zealot at all is to be able to cancel it in order to get the nexus earlier if there is no block and let it complete if there is a block. If you see a block you need to let it finish and you also need to immediately place a pylon down for extra supply and start a mama core asap. The mama core will finish before a stalker and help keep your probes safe from a reaper. | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On November 22 2013 13:20 SC2John wrote: Yeah, same. It's hard to tell what works and what doesn't since these roach strategies are kind of new. Best to keep your eye on pro games and just do what seems the most intuitive (making immortals and/or void rays, walling off, etc.). Best thing to do is not go double robo. you end up with a lot of immortals but very little of everything else. Just deal with it like you did the old stephano roach max. Try not to lose your army and use buildings to wall in. Keep in mind if they burrow under forcefields your army is doing free damage to them. If they are burrowing to get under your army its kind of like blink in PvP. You can blink on a couple immortals, especially if there are stalkers there with them but not if its immortal zealot. Zealots do more punishing damage in those situations. So IMO if you are doing an all in attacking into them zealot immortal sentry is great, skip the stalkers, as you really don't need the anti air. What will be difficult is the fact that on more open maps a burrowed roach max attack is likely to be devastating since dealing with burrowed roach in the past involved buildingplacement and forcefields to help you hold attacks. But double robo at the very least is for sure not the way. It costs too much and your third comes too late to kick in before max roach attacks come your way. | ||
Myles
United States5162 Posts
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
 Anything else? I currently use my WoL style. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On November 23 2013 03:53 darkness wrote: How has the PvT match-up changed in terms of army composition since WoL? I see hellbats from time to time. Sometimes mothership core but that's about it in battles. Anything else? I currently use my WoL style.PvT is probably the most untouched matchup from WoL. For the most part, both players take a quick expand, the terran player tries to hit a timing at 10:00 and delay the third base, and protoss tries to defend the drops while taking a third and getting both templar and colossi. The only difference is that both players have a larger array of aggressive options at their disposal (reaper openings, mine drops, hellbat drops, oracle openings, blink timings, etc.), and the way in which players have gone about achieving the same goals has changed some here and there (for instance, the single forge templar builds that are quite common these days). In terms of army composition, the overall compositions have stayed about the same in HotS with very little exposure for newer units. You should be mostly fine using a WoL-style build in HotS while making a few minor adjustments to offset the new tools and threats terran has to offer. | ||
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UtteRChaoS
2 Posts
I just came up against a zerg player that did a fast two base swarm host, queen, nydus build. I was able to scout the lack of a 3rd and saw the infestation pit building, but didn't expect the nydus. I'm not sure how to best deal with this as it is faster than colossi would typically hit. I tried getting a prism into his main, but with the nydus, he was able to get back to defend easily. I came across the strat below which is pretty close to what my opponent did to me. http://zergology.com/post/47350867354/zvp-2base-swarmhost How should a protoss player react to scouting an infestation pit and narrows the player down to SH? | ||
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aldochillbro
187 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On November 24 2013 05:52 aldochillbro wrote: I think the general consensus is going double robo collosus warp prism first. IMO if you let the nydus close to your base, z had defense at their base, and they go corrupters then it's hard to stop. I think teoita linked a vod that dealt with 2base swarmhosts on whirlwind a while back but idk Pretty much this. I also like 3-gate void ray (on 2 bases) and rewalling with cannons and gateways...after like ~8 void rays, you can just a-move into the contain then just counter with void ray/6-gate zealot. I'm not sure if void rays are the ideal response though. | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On November 24 2013 06:48 SC2John wrote: Pretty much this. I also like 3-gate void ray (on 2 bases) and rewalling with cannons and gateways...after like ~8 void rays, you can just a-move into the contain then just counter with void ray/6-gate zealot. I'm not sure if void rays are the ideal response though. I think warp prism is the most stable. If you can get into their base and slow them down while making collossus you have a good chance to win. If you can get about 4 collossus maybe 6 before they really have a lot of anti air your chance of breaking the contain and following up with a counter to win becomes really good. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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KaiZEN_539
3 Posts
I have problems when matched with random race players. I fear ling rushes the most, so by default I always FFE when faced with random. With most hots maps now FFE is a challenge to do, and more often than not I will end up having lings at my front door before my FFE finishes. I did it just as what the build order says, pylon @ 8 or 9, then nexus at 15. But the timing is just too damn slow! I shared the replay below. I ended up having to pull my workers to deal with it, then zerg will have its sweet time to macro up a sizeable army and steamroll me in the end. What could I have done better to prevent this next time? Please help. I spawned in top left , Belshir Vestige. Maybe it was a bad idea to poke out with my first colo , some zealots and an immortal, but I wonder what else did I go wrong.... The guy went 8 or 9 pool http://drop.sc/365988 | ||
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NVRLand
Sweden203 Posts
On November 25 2013 00:39 KaiZEN_539 wrote: Hi guys, I have problems when matched with random race players. I fear ling rushes the most, so by default I always FFE when faced with random. With most hots maps now FFE is a challenge to do, and more often than not I will end up having lings at my front door before my FFE finishes. I did it just as what the build order says, pylon @ 8 or 9, then nexus at 15. But the timing is just too damn slow! I shared the replay below. I ended up having to pull my workers to deal with it, then zerg will have its sweet time to macro up a sizeable army and steamroll me in the end. What could I have done better to prevent this next time? Please help. I spawned in top left , Belshir Vestige. Maybe it was a bad idea to poke out with my first colo , some zealots and an immortal, but I wonder what else did I go wrong.... The guy went 8 or 9 pool http://drop.sc/365988 First of all I want to ask you, what is the point of your scout? Only scout if you plan to change your build after what you scout. You scout that there are few workers at 1:53 and you scout the pool finishing at 1:58. What makes you think that you can go nexus first (a greedy build) versus a hyper aggressive build? His production starts even before your nexus starts. As soon as you see that early pool you should abandon the idea of a nexus first and drop the forge asap. After this you play even more greedy, going for a pylon before forge. A forge fast expand relies on cannon as defense, if you know that his pool finishes at 2:00~ and the forge build time is 45s and a cannon is 40s. That means that you have to plant the forge 1:25 before the lings arrives at your base to have your defense ready. If you would have dropped the forge at 1:58 you would have your cannon done at 3:20~ and the lings arrives at your base 3:30. Do you understand where I'm going here? You can't expect to play a greedy build versus a hyper aggressive one. The most important part is that you scout what he's doing but you're not adapting at all. "Oh, he's doing an eight pool? Well, I better get my nexus first going!" is the wrong attitude. | ||
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ffadicted
United States3545 Posts
You can do a basic gateway build against every single race, and you should. You should never go ffe against a random player, that's suicide. If it's strictly against Z, nexus first is very tough, I would suggest a pylon -> forge -> nexus build. It's much safer and not THAT much worse economically. It also lets you react accordingly, it beats early pools (pylon in main mineral line), aggressive pools (cannon + probe hold), and lets you play economically in case of say, a hatch first (gateway before cannon), and even lets you cannon rush if you're cheeky, though I wouldn't suggest making that a habit lol Don't try to win by out-greeding opponents, it's not really a good way to learn imo | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On November 26 2013 01:33 ffadicted wrote: Wait, you go forge FE against random players? lol What if he is terran or (even worse) toss? haha You can do a basic gateway build against every single race, and you should. You should never go ffe against a random player, that's suicide. If it's strictly against Z, nexus first is very tough, I would suggest a pylon -> forge -> nexus build. It's much safer and not THAT much worse economically. It also lets you react accordingly, it beats early pools (pylon in main mineral line), aggressive pools (cannon + probe hold), and lets you play economically in case of say, a hatch first (gateway before cannon), and even lets you cannon rush if you're cheeky, though I wouldn't suggest making that a habit lol Don't try to win by out-greeding opponents, it's not really a good way to learn imo You should definitely do MSC expand (usually with a 13 probe scout) against random. Gate expands are almost universal in every matchup now with minor adjustments and defend from almost all pressure with minimal scouting. As far as FFE in PvZ, however, you should NEVER go forge first unless you're planning on cannon rushing or you're going FFE on a 4-player map, as it unnecessarily puts you behind. On 2-player maps, your probe scout should get to your opponent's base in time to throw down an emergency forge and put a cannon in your mineral line. On maps with smaller chokes at the natural like Star Station, Cloud Kingdom, or Frost, you can wall off your natural in time to stop a 6pool, then you're WAY ahead. | ||
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ffadicted
United States3545 Posts
On November 26 2013 03:32 SC2John wrote: You should definitely do MSC expand (usually with a 13 probe scout) against random. Gate expands are almost universal in every matchup now with minor adjustments and defend from almost all pressure with minimal scouting. As far as FFE in PvZ, however, you should NEVER go forge first unless you're planning on cannon rushing or you're going FFE on a 4-player map, as it unnecessarily puts you behind. On 2-player maps, your probe scout should get to your opponent's base in time to throw down an emergency forge and put a cannon in your mineral line. On maps with smaller chokes at the natural like Star Station, Cloud Kingdom, or Frost, you can wall off your natural in time to stop a 6pool, then you're WAY ahead. Idk man, I don't think 14 -> 17 is as bad as you make it out to be, and it's definitely safer for people who are learning to FFE...Nexus -> Forge -> Gateway can be pretty dangerous against early pool timings that aren't 6-7. Maybe I'm delusional though, does everyone else agree 14 -> 17 is crap in most situations? | ||
Olli
Austria24422 Posts
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Maasked
United States567 Posts
On November 26 2013 04:06 DarkLordOlli wrote: I've seen top level protosses drop the forge first against pool first openings on 2 player maps with short rush distance but it's usually not a 13 or 14 forge but a 17 forge followed immediately by the nexus. I think parting did it against scarlett on habitation station I do this, vs 13 or 14 pool you can definitely get away with 17 forge, nexus, pylon, cannon gateway (in that order) EDIT: Also a friend asked me to jot down a PvT safe expand build order Here's mine, I think its the standard. + Show Spoiler + 9 Pylon 13 Gate 15 2x Gas [At 15 on minerals I rally into each gas until I have 15 on mins and 2 in each geyser] 17 Pylon 18 Cybernetics Core (2:48-2:53) 19 Start Zealot After 15-2-2 Saturation rally probe to natural and queue up one more Probe will get to natural (assuming chronos were used all on probes) before zealot finishes, if no engineering bay block, cancel zealot. Side note: If they do engineering bay block you, let zealot finish, start a pylon, warpgate, then MSC and Stalker, then make the nexus after clearing the block 21 (cancelled zealot) Nexus - Scout with probe At this point you should have 16 on minerals (because you built that extra probe after rallying one to your natural) and 2 on each gas, after the MSC rally the next 2 probes into gas to get optimal 16-3-3 saturation, then just rally onto minerals until your natural completes, after which transfer probes to natural until you have 16-3-3 saturation at your main, and rally down to natural. 21 warp gate reasearch 21 Mothership Core (chrono) 23 Pylon 24 Stalker 27 Sentry 30 Robotics facility (5:08?) 31 Sentry 34 2x Gateway This is generally how I open. 6:40 2x Gas at natural (immediately saturate them with 3 in each) The gateways will finish same time the warp gate completes (at like 6:30) I warp in 2 zealots immediately, and depeding on what I scout I warp in a 3rd sentry or not I go into twilight council and forge at around 6:20 Somewhere in here I add 2 gateways Use twilight to get Charge and forge for +1Armour ~7:20 Robo Bay Out of the robo I made 2 obs, then warp prism, then a 3rd obs and then go into colossus (first one starts at ~8:50) First obs will be 1/2 across the map when you get 100 energy on first sentry, immediately halluc a phoenix for scouting I could write how I defend all different pressure builds, but only if people want me to write an actual guide on this. Basically, vs marine pressure or heart build i get a 3rd sentry and warp in zealots vs mine drop i go to 4 stalker (3 shot a medi) vs hellions I chrono 2 more stalkers after the first sentry and pull all probes into main until warp gate finishes, I get blink first and go to 6 stalkers. | ||
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playa
United States1284 Posts
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