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United States4883 Posts
On November 26 2013 04:00 ffadicted wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2013 03:32 SC2John wrote:On November 26 2013 01:33 ffadicted wrote:
Wait, you go forge FE against random players? lol What if he is terran or (even worse) toss? haha
You can do a basic gateway build against every single race, and you should. You should never go ffe against a random player, that's suicide.
If it's strictly against Z, nexus first is very tough, I would suggest a pylon -> forge -> nexus build. It's much safer and not THAT much worse economically. It also lets you react accordingly, it beats early pools (pylon in main mineral line), aggressive pools (cannon + probe hold), and lets you play economically in case of say, a hatch first (gateway before cannon), and even lets you cannon rush if you're cheeky, though I wouldn't suggest making that a habit lol
Don't try to win by out-greeding opponents, it's not really a good way to learn imo You should definitely do MSC expand (usually with a 13 probe scout) against random. Gate expands are almost universal in every matchup now with minor adjustments and defend from almost all pressure with minimal scouting. As far as FFE in PvZ, however, you should NEVER go forge first unless you're planning on cannon rushing or you're going FFE on a 4-player map, as it unnecessarily puts you behind. On 2-player maps, your probe scout should get to your opponent's base in time to throw down an emergency forge and put a cannon in your mineral line. On maps with smaller chokes at the natural like Star Station, Cloud Kingdom, or Frost, you can wall off your natural in time to stop a 6pool, then you're WAY ahead. Idk man, I don't think 14 -> 17 is as bad as you make it out to be, and it's definitely safer for people who are learning to FFE...Nexus -> Forge -> Gateway can be pretty dangerous against early pool timings that aren't 6-7. Maybe I'm delusional though, does everyone else agree 14 -> 17 is crap in most situations?
On 2-player maps, your scout arrives around 14, so it makes no sense to go forge blindly. You should always be thinking nexus first and only reactively drop a forge if you scout an early pool. Olli mentioned 17 forge, which is good against slightly later pools like 12-14 on maps with short rush distances. Otherwise, there's no reason to cut your economy by like a full minute blindly. On 4-player maps, I'm not against forge first as you can't really reliably scout your opponent and react in time to deal with a 6pool; Frost is the exception because of the reason stated above.
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On November 26 2013 04:00 ffadicted wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2013 03:32 SC2John wrote:On November 26 2013 01:33 ffadicted wrote:
Wait, you go forge FE against random players? lol What if he is terran or (even worse) toss? haha
You can do a basic gateway build against every single race, and you should. You should never go ffe against a random player, that's suicide.
If it's strictly against Z, nexus first is very tough, I would suggest a pylon -> forge -> nexus build. It's much safer and not THAT much worse economically. It also lets you react accordingly, it beats early pools (pylon in main mineral line), aggressive pools (cannon + probe hold), and lets you play economically in case of say, a hatch first (gateway before cannon), and even lets you cannon rush if you're cheeky, though I wouldn't suggest making that a habit lol
Don't try to win by out-greeding opponents, it's not really a good way to learn imo You should definitely do MSC expand (usually with a 13 probe scout) against random. Gate expands are almost universal in every matchup now with minor adjustments and defend from almost all pressure with minimal scouting. As far as FFE in PvZ, however, you should NEVER go forge first unless you're planning on cannon rushing or you're going FFE on a 4-player map, as it unnecessarily puts you behind. On 2-player maps, your probe scout should get to your opponent's base in time to throw down an emergency forge and put a cannon in your mineral line. On maps with smaller chokes at the natural like Star Station, Cloud Kingdom, or Frost, you can wall off your natural in time to stop a 6pool, then you're WAY ahead. Idk man, I don't think 14 -> 17 is as bad as you make it out to be, and it's definitely safer for people who are learning to FFE...Nexus -> Forge -> Gateway can be pretty dangerous against early pool timings that aren't 6-7. Maybe I'm delusional though, does everyone else agree 14 -> 17 is crap in most situations?
There is no reason to go forge first if you scout 14+ pool. Most players who open forge first either cannon rush the zerg player or pylon block their hatchery to compensate for their delayed economy. I do like to be a bit more conservative with my forge timing, so I go 16 nexus 16 forge 18 pylon 18 gate 18 cannon like Rain does instead of 17 nexus. But if you're facing an early pool, you have to adapt your build regardless of small details like that.
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Italy12247 Posts
You can go forge first to pylon block the nat and stil have your build line up nicely. MC brought this up at some tournament lately, it was really cool because i didn't know that either.
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Question about late game P v Z. What should your goals be when you face swarm host. I've faced them a couple of times and different scenarios and more often then not i lose. FYI i usuall open either FFE or 1 gate FE into stagate and standard 4 gate stargate robo into 3rd.
1. I scout it reasonably early and hit a timing before they come online (win but rare)
2. The game lasts a while and we transition through all the usual tech before they get Swarm Hosts and which point i find i get grinded down.
3. They rush for swarm hosts and i dont scout it. I get grinded down (not talking about the swarm host all in).
What should my goals be? I find they usually back up the swarm host with lots of corruptors. Whilst i can keep them zoned out with tempests for a while, eventually i always get grinded down.
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Hi all!
I have a general Problem in PvT that I don't know when I should take third in a standard game. Most of the time I feel too insecure to take a third. My normal approach is like that:
1 gate 1 gas expand -> take 2 more gates, second gas -> robo -> once natural is rdy 2 more gases -> robotics bay -> 2 more gates (up to 5) -> two colossus with range -> 2 forges and twilight council -> templar archives -> 3 more gates up to (8)
So is there any big flaw in the general approach and where should I place the "taking a third" step? At which minute mark a third should be up already?
Hope you can help me, and that this question isn't too stupid^^
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generally you can take your third when terran does. also, you should be going gate, robo, then 2 more gates instead of 3 gates then a robo
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United States4883 Posts
On November 26 2013 17:45 Aenur wrote:
Hi all!
I have a general Problem in PvT that I don't know when I should take third in a standard game. Most of the time I feel too insecure to take a third. My normal approach is like that:
1 gate 1 gas expand -> take 2 more gates, second gas -> robo -> once natural is rdy 2 more gases -> robotics bay -> 2 more gates (up to 5) -> two colossus with range -> 2 forges and twilight council -> templar archives -> 3 more gates up to (8)
So is there any big flaw in the general approach and where should I place the "taking a third" step? At which minute mark a third should be up already?
Hope you can help me, and that this question isn't too stupid^^
You're missing two key ingredients early on: twilight + earlier forge. With blink/charge and +1 armor (and delaying colossus range a bit), taking the 3rd is a lot easier. If you want to go double forge, either do it before colossus tech or go single forge and then double forge when +1 completes. Also, most of the time, gateway counts go 3 -> 6 -> 10.
Whenever you're having trouble, it's important to back up and look at the preparation first. In this case, it seems like you can't take a 3rd. Maybe you're taking it too early, maybe you're putting too much priority on colossus instead of gateway units and upgrades. Maybe there is a fundamental flaw with how you're opening. Vaderseven tells me all the time: "I use build orders as solutions to mid game problems."
Hope this helps!
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My opening build is very close to MC's 1 Gate expand, which I found on Liquipedia. Instead of the 2nd Stalker I build the MSC while taking the natural.
Thank you very much so far, both of you. I never felt comfortable starting uprades so late in the game. Will try to include your suggestions into my play.
About taking a 3rd, it seems to me now like there is no particular time for it, just being attentiv how the midgame developes.
Sorry for my horrible english =)
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Italy12247 Posts
That's very, very outdated. I suggest you look at this onegate fe variation instead:
9 pylon
13 gate
14 gas (3 probes)
16 pylon
18 core
21 warpgate
21 msc, cut probes
23 nexus
23 pylon
23 Stalker
25 Assimilator
Something along those lines.
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In order to take a third in PvT, you usually want to have good map vision with observers to make sure you won't be dropped and your third won't be sniped, 6 gateways for colossus builds or 7 gates for templar builds (afaik), your forge(s) and twillight council along with upgrades already started, and a handful of units for defense. In a regular game where the protoss went msc expand, he will probably take a third at 11:00-12:00 or earlier (arguably greedy, or as a response to a fast third cc). I go over some of these timings below, feel free to ask any questions.
I can go over build order variations with you, it's easier to show these things than typing. If you're interested, add vitusk8@hotmail.com.
On November 26 2013 20:27 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2013 17:45 Aenur wrote:
Hi all!
I have a general Problem in PvT that I don't know when I should take third in a standard game. Most of the time I feel too insecure to take a third. My normal approach is like that:
1 gate 1 gas expand -> take 2 more gates, second gas -> robo -> once natural is rdy 2 more gases -> robotics bay -> 2 more gates (up to 5) -> two colossus with range -> 2 forges and twilight council -> templar archives -> 3 more gates up to (8)
So is there any big flaw in the general approach and where should I place the "taking a third" step? At which minute mark a third should be up already?
Hope you can help me, and that this question isn't too stupid^^ You're missing two key ingredients early on: twilight + earlier forge. With blink/charge and +1 armor (and delaying colossus range a bit), taking the 3rd is a lot easier. If you want to go double forge, either do it before colossus tech or go single forge and then double forge when +1 completes. Also, most of the time, gateway counts go 3 -> 6 -> 10. Whenever you're having trouble, it's important to back up and look at the preparation first. In this case, it seems like you can't take a 3rd. Maybe you're taking it too early, maybe you're putting too much priority on colossus instead of gateway units and upgrades. Maybe there is a fundamental flaw with how you're opening. Vaderseven tells me all the time: "I use build orders as solutions to mid game problems." Hope this helps!
While he's indeed delaying upgrades too much, I have to disagree with your take on double forge. If anything, builds that get double forge asap (e.g. off of a single gateway and a robo) are arguably greedy and favor a big timing attack much more than a more stable macro style. Going double forge that early requires a LOT of gas and your medivac timing defense has to revolve around gateway units much more than a well-timed colossus. You need about 300 extra gas just for 2-2 upgrades by the time you'd be starting 1-1.
The standard "macro" double forge timing is usually after a 7:10-7:30 robo bay. How early you build your forges depends on how many units you build early on, what units you built, and how many gateways you got before your forges. I myself build my 2 forges after gateways 3-4 (somewhere between 7:30-8:00) because if I build them asap, I need to build less units early on or delay my colossus, which I don't want to. After my 2 forges, I add a twillight council and finally gateways 5-6. The only reason why I'd consider going single forge colossus (i.e. single forge at about 7:30-8:00) is to save gas for stalkers, which helps you deal with medivacs. Going single forge at 5:30-5:45 actually costs a lot of gas too, but you can get +3 armor earlier if that's your goal.
In other words, colossus with a 7:30-8:00 single forge is a more conservative style that allows you to get charge/blink a bit earlier and build more stalkers to deal with medivacs. It's also a valid option if you want more gas to go single colossus without range into storm, but that's also doable with double forge anyway.
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On November 26 2013 22:05 Teoita wrote:
That's very, very outdated. I suggest you look at this onegate fe variation instead:
9 pylon
13 gate
14 gas (3 probes)
16 pylon
18 core
21 warpgate
21 msc, cut probes
23 nexus
23 pylon
23 Stalker
25 Assimilator
Something along those lines.
What I usually see other players do and do myself is nexus (3:35-3:40) immediately followed by a msc + wg, then pylon and gas before my first stalker. I'm not sure if you can get a stalker that early if you cut probes, but I'm pretty sure you can't if you don't cut probes (you will get supply blocked). So I myself wait for my pylon to finish. Taking your second geyser earlier is also more of a priority to be honest.
It's important to start a zealot just in case you get ebay blocked. I like to start mine at 3:05 or so. This is to avoid having to cancel it too early and getting ebay blocked by a sneaky scv. So you should start your zealot, then cancel it for a faster nexus + msc if you don't get ebay blocked.
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Italy12247 Posts
Oh fuck yeah, i copied the older build. Nexus before msc is optimal, my bad.
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Are there any faster ways to warp in than hold shift + unit hotkey and spam left click with your mouse? I saw a cool trick on Khaldor's channel but it seems to have been nerfed as I can't get it to work.
+ Show Spoiler +looks something like this (2:28)
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United States4883 Posts
On November 26 2013 23:16 Mikah wrote:Are there any faster ways to warp in than hold shift + unit hotkey and spam left click with your mouse? I saw a cool trick on Khaldor's channel but it seems to have been nerfed as I can't get it to work. + Show Spoiler +
The faster warpin still works as long as you do the stuff in the video. To be truthful, though, I don't find this trick that useful other than mass zealot warpins (~20+) in the late game; shift-clicking is more accurate and relatively the same speed at lower gateway counts.
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@ SC2John, Teoita and vhapter
Glad for your help. Didn't expect such detailed answers. It will help me alot. I will come back to this thread if I have further questions, but I am good for now^^
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does anyone know how carriers fare vs mech? im thinking of stopping tempest production around 6 or so then going cannons, storm, and carriers
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Canada13407 Posts
On November 27 2013 04:04 aldochillbro wrote:
does anyone know how carriers fare vs mech? im thinking of stopping tempest production around 6 or so then going cannons, storm, and carriers
Carriers in general as a stand alone unit are fantastic on even upgrades. However, due to their long build times, and fact that interceptors do very low damage vs high armor targets when behind in upgrades means that they are generally a poor choice and void rays with their upfront damage and tempests with their burst (and faster build time) are more popular. This being said however, if you can secure yourself enough time to get a bunch of carriers with at least +2 attack, they are amazing vs everything in the game in direct engagements.
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On November 26 2013 22:05 Teoita wrote:
That's very, very outdated. I suggest you look at this onegate fe variation instead:
9 pylon
13 gate
14 gas (3 probes)
16 pylon
18 core
21 warpgate
21 msc, cut probes
23 nexus
23 pylon
23 Stalker
25 Assimilator
Something along those lines.
I posted a more detailed version of this last page 
Carriers dont fare particularly well against mech, because mass vikings should be able to best them, along with Thors, the interceptors are high DPS low damage units, therefore they arent as good against the massive armor that is mech units.
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Italy12247 Posts
My bad i've been away from home so i didnt keep up with the last pages of the thread.
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On November 25 2013 05:35 NVRLand wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2013 00:39 KaiZEN_539 wrote:Hi guys, I have problems when matched with random race players. I fear ling rushes the most, so by default I always FFE when faced with random. With most hots maps now FFE is a challenge to do, and more often than not I will end up having lings at my front door before my FFE finishes. I did it just as what the build order says, pylon @ 8 or 9, then nexus at 15. But the timing is just too damn slow! I shared the replay below. I ended up having to pull my workers to deal with it, then zerg will have its sweet time to macro up a sizeable army and steamroll me in the end. What could I have done better to prevent this next time? Please help. I spawned in top left , Belshir Vestige. Maybe it was a bad idea to poke out with my first colo , some zealots and an immortal, but I wonder what else did I go wrong.... The guy went 8 or 9 pool http://drop.sc/365988 First of all I want to ask you, what is the point of your scout? Only scout if you plan to change your build after what you scout. You scout that there are few workers at 1:53 and you scout the pool finishing at 1:58. What makes you think that you can go nexus first (a greedy build) versus a hyper aggressive build? His production starts even before your nexus starts. As soon as you see that early pool you should abandon the idea of a nexus first and drop the forge asap. After this you play even more greedy, going for a pylon before forge. A forge fast expand relies on cannon as defense, if you know that his pool finishes at 2:00~ and the forge build time is 45s and a cannon is 40s. That means that you have to plant the forge 1:25 before the lings arrives at your base to have your defense ready. If you would have dropped the forge at 1:58 you would have your cannon done at 3:20~ and the lings arrives at your base 3:30. Do you understand where I'm going here? You can't expect to play a greedy build versus a hyper aggressive one. The most important part is that you scout what he's doing but you're not adapting at all. "Oh, he's doing an eight pool? Well, I better get my nexus first going!" is the wrong attitude.
Thanks for the detailed answer. Yes, I guess that's where the gap in my play is. I'm having trouble to read zerg's build in the early game, I play terran and then went fully toss so I'm not familiar with zergy timings. I wasn't sure if nexus build time is well before the time when lings would reach me , but I guess I've repeatedly learnt the hard way...
It wasn't the first time it happened, and it's got me quite frustrated when some decent zerg player is matched with me.
So with that said,
pool finishing at 1:58 : aggressive build.
A relaxed pool would be finishing at 14 to 17 food then yes?
Thanks to ffaddicted too for his input. Yeah nothing more I hate than speedlings in early game, MSC expand build then it is for random... 
Found this for MSC expand... us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/8728253802 first post has the best MSC build?
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EPT
