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On November 21 2013 00:44 DinoMight wrote:
Guys,
I have kind of an embarassing question to ask...
So yesterday I got ROFLSTOMPED by Terran mech. Like... REALLY hard. As in I've played Neeb in a team league and it was closer than this match... Here's what happened. I went for regular 1 gate FE. Scouted late natural, no reaper, 2 marines... weirdness. So I threw down a second Gateway and Robo immediately and sent my first 2 Stalkers to scout. 2 Stalkers forced him to defend with his banshees (and reveal them). I immediately threw down a Stargate and defended the banshees without losing anything. I then took a third base immediately.
Then problems... he starts going mass Widow Mine, Viking, Raven. For the remainder of the game any army I tried to build just got ANNIHILATED. Raven/Viking denies vision/detection. Mass widow mines everywhere = I can't really go anywhere without intense micro. And then he just starts too mass seeker everything i have. And then he adds Thors and just starts killing my bases.
Widow Mines, Turrets and Planetaries everywhere.
I tried Carriers, Void rays, Phoenixes, Templar... and GOT WRECKED. So hard. He destroyed my maxed army and lost like 1-2 Ravens. That's about it.
Can't ever get vision on the Ravens because he keeps denying my obs. Can't ever get revelation on his army because there are Widow Mines everywhere and I have no obs. I have no idea how you fight this.
So my question is... what the fuck gives? How do I beat this? Is the answer just "you shouldn't have let him get there?" Isn't a Protoss ahead on econ able to just build an unkillable army of death, or so I'm told?
Please do send a replay. I'm curious as to what the situation is exactly. I played something similar a bunch of times except with banshees instead of mines.
You could go simply blink stalker, run around, and shut down his expansions. Ravens are slow, Widow Mines need to be burrowed and unburrowed, Vikings need to wait otherwise they get sniped, so you can keep him on his current number of bases, even if he already has planetaries there. Use a phoenix to take point since you have the stargate and MSC is too slow. Pure blink will fail once thors + SCV's start coming out, but blinking the red stalkers deals with seeker missiles meaning your only problem is the mines.
What I usually do is go Stalker + HT. Your high templar will be picked off by the seekers unless you are very careful, but a targeted HT can still feedback all the ravens he can. If there's more HT's, make archon to save from splash damage. Stalkers can dodge them but you're still pretty prone to the widow mines.
Your main game plan should be to contain the terran, though. You can just get economically ahead, shut him down, and win by pure numbers.
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On November 21 2013 00:44 DinoMight wrote:
Guys,
I have kind of an embarassing question to ask...
So yesterday I got ROFLSTOMPED by Terran mech. Like... REALLY hard. As in I've played Neeb in a team league and it was closer than this match... Here's what happened. I went for regular 1 gate FE. Scouted late natural, no reaper, 2 marines... weirdness. So I threw down a second Gateway and Robo immediately and sent my first 2 Stalkers to scout. 2 Stalkers forced him to defend with his banshees (and reveal them). I immediately threw down a Stargate and defended the banshees without losing anything. I then took a third base immediately.
Then problems... he starts going mass Widow Mine, Viking, Raven. For the remainder of the game any army I tried to build just got ANNIHILATED. Raven/Viking denies vision/detection. Mass widow mines everywhere = I can't really go anywhere without intense micro. And then he just starts too mass seeker everything i have. And then he adds Thors and just starts killing my bases.
Widow Mines, Turrets and Planetaries everywhere.
I tried Carriers, Void rays, Phoenixes, Templar... and GOT WRECKED. So hard. He destroyed my maxed army and lost like 1-2 Ravens. That's about it.
Can't ever get vision on the Ravens because he keeps denying my obs. Can't ever get revelation on his army because there are Widow Mines everywhere and I have no obs. I have no idea how you fight this.
So my question is... what the fuck gives? How do I beat this? Is the answer just "you shouldn't have let him get there?" Isn't a Protoss ahead on econ able to just build an unkillable army of death, or so I'm told?
Have you ever tried mass tempest + high templar in late game PvT? I can't see you losing observers with that kind of army if you protect your tempests with storm carefully. Start building pylons and cannons all over the map to make sure you have vision even if you lost your observers. Siege him with tempests and use revelation on his stuff - storm the shit out of anything that tries to get closer.
What I'll say right now is highly debatable, but once my super late game army looks sizeable enough (enough tempests + colossi + high templar, in your case colossi aren't that helpful), I like to get a mothership too. Since your opponent had ravens, it may have been a bit useless... but I still think it's something to keep in mind. A mothership arguably increases the chances of terrans messing up.
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The biggest issue is Raven/Viking kills every observer I make.
So I can't see the mines.
So I can't go anywhere with my units  Tempests can't shoot anything because they can't see. The Oracle trying to cast Revelation DIES to a widow mine or to Vikings before it reaches the army.
And as soon as I grab my stuff and try to run away he Seeker Missiles every unit I have.
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So what about putting it all together, blink stalker tempest observer? Use the stalkers to spot the tempest shots and bring observers out under stalker cover?
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First of all, you didn't actually get the army composition suggested. You don't seem to have much experience with it at all to be honest.
Second of all, how will the terran be able to snipe your observer? That's not realistic, given the fact that you have longer range, can storm vikings that get too close, and feedback ravens. Just make sure your observers are well-protected by your army rather than in front of everything you have. If you lose observers in the middle of a battle, you should still have cannons for backup detection nearby anyway. Depending on how many widow mines we're talking about, colossi might actually help you make sure widow mines die even if storm isn't enough or you mismicro or something.
Basically, you should be able to protect your observers well enough that any attempt to kill them would be suicidal. Tempests have a lot of hp - add storm and your advantage should be even more significant. Feedback ravens, kill widow mines with aoe, storm vikings to death, and build cannons in tactical locations for backup detection. You should be able to kill widow mines along the way easily since you have sick range with tempests and your observers should be easy to protect. With superior range, you can make sure there are no widow mines around, then send in your oracle to reveal his stuff.
It's not like you have to chase the terran anyway. It shouldn't be difficult to establish an economic lead. If your opponent is playing mech and getting more mining bases than you, something else is definitely wrong. That's what you should try to do, e.g. get up to 5 bases and keep him on 4 bases or something.
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This is one that has been plagueing me quite a bit lately, even up in to Mid-high GM. What does one do, against a late game terran, who has Viking-Tank-Mass raven and a scattering of banshee/thor. He will almost always have a bigger army then you because of the SCV saccing allowed by mules, so engaging this is veeery difficult.
I've only really found two good answers to this kind of play. Answer the first, keep him contained to three bases, literally all game. Never try to engage his army, defend drops well. Eventually he will mine out and be forced to push out and you can use 2-3 maxed armies to kill him.
The second is to, wait for it, mass motherfucking carriers. I know this sounds silly, but a terran with no marine upgrades, and no marines, is not going to win versus 20-odd 3-3 carriers. I don't care how many ravens he has, spread your shit and he just can't get cost efficient.
I really wish I had better answers than this, but that's all I've been able to find so far. Happy to hear other opinions.
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United States4883 Posts
On November 21 2013 05:31 whatami wrote:
This is one that has been plagueing me quite a bit lately, even up in to Mid-high GM. What does one do, against a late game terran, who has Viking-Tank-Mass raven and a scattering of banshee/thor. He will almost always have a bigger army then you because of the SCV saccing allowed by mules, so engaging this is veeery difficult.
I've only really found two good answers to this kind of play. Answer the first, keep him contained to three bases, literally all game. Never try to engage his army, defend drops well. Eventually he will mine out and be forced to push out and you can use 2-3 maxed armies to kill him.
The second is to, wait for it, mass motherfucking carriers. I know this sounds silly, but a terran with no marine upgrades, and no marines, is not going to win versus 20-odd 3-3 carriers. I don't care how many ravens he has, spread your shit and he just can't get cost efficient.
I really wish I had better answers than this, but that's all I've been able to find so far. Happy to hear other opinions.
I think vhapter is oversimplifying it a bit, but his response is the best one. Nothing terran has can touch tempest/cannon/HT; cost for cost, tempests are far superior to carriers in every single way. The key is already having an economic lead and good map vision. If you're not walking into the late game with complete map control and a strong position on the map, you're doing something wrong.
As far as the mid game goes, immortal/blink stalker aided by some templar is generally the strongest way to take the protoss army on directly and split him in several different directions at once. To be honest, the mid and late game should be the easiest times for protoss. In my opinion, the only really scary things are two or three-base mech timings that hit before your third expansion can kick in fully.
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Whenever I go FFE -> Stargate -> 2 oracles, I usually die to hydra/roach push at 9-10 min. Is it hard counter or am I making a big mistake? They attack me at my 3rd base. I'm just not sure how to harass zerg without taking a big risk. Probably warp prism + chargelot warpin is better?
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On November 21 2013 00:44 DinoMight wrote:
Guys,
I have kind of an embarassing question to ask...
So yesterday I got ROFLSTOMPED by Terran mech. Like... REALLY hard. As in I've played Neeb in a team league and it was closer than this match... Here's what happened. I went for regular 1 gate FE. Scouted late natural, no reaper, 2 marines... weirdness. So I threw down a second Gateway and Robo immediately and sent my first 2 Stalkers to scout. 2 Stalkers forced him to defend with his banshees (and reveal them). I immediately threw down a Stargate and defended the banshees without losing anything. I then took a third base immediately.
Then problems... he starts going mass Widow Mine, Viking, Raven. For the remainder of the game any army I tried to build just got ANNIHILATED. Raven/Viking denies vision/detection. Mass widow mines everywhere = I can't really go anywhere without intense micro. And then he just starts too mass seeker everything i have. And then he adds Thors and just starts killing my bases.
Widow Mines, Turrets and Planetaries everywhere.
I tried Carriers, Void rays, Phoenixes, Templar... and GOT WRECKED. So hard. He destroyed my maxed army and lost like 1-2 Ravens. That's about it.
Can't ever get vision on the Ravens because he keeps denying my obs. Can't ever get revelation on his army because there are Widow Mines everywhere and I have no obs. I have no idea how you fight this.
So my question is... what the fuck gives? How do I beat this? Is the answer just "you shouldn't have let him get there?" Isn't a Protoss ahead on econ able to just build an unkillable army of death, or so I'm told?
You say you tried everything but you only played one game from my understanding. Pretend there are options A,B, and C. if you try option A then option B will be weaker because you lost so much from using A, and C will be so weak after A/B get shut down that you can't determine its viability. Even if you were maxed on C then you're lower on upgrades, production, or econ because of it. Just try to figure out the best way to address it by isolating your strategies in practice and do it. It's a faulty assumption to say that A, B, or C doesn't work because of this. Neeb may just be better than you and make you call him daddy no matter what you do as well...so there's that too.
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what are you guys doing in alterzim pvp? i've tried doing some dt drops with mixed results.
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On November 21 2013 12:47 TarLaPaN wrote:
what are you guys doing in alterzim pvp? i've tried doing some dt drops with mixed results.
Ninja expands mostly.
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How do you play Alterzim PvZ? It seems the Zerg can just do whatever they like, the third is super-open, and taking a fourth is hard. It's like...the map is SO big that it's hard to attack Zerg, but they can go on the offense extremely well once I take a third, which I pretty much have to do due to the map's size.
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United States4883 Posts
On November 21 2013 11:10 darkness wrote:
Whenever I go FFE -> Stargate -> 2 oracles, I usually die to hydra/roach push at 9-10 min. Is it hard counter or am I making a big mistake? They attack me at my 3rd base. I'm just not sure how to harass zerg without taking a big risk. Probably warp prism + chargelot warpin is better?
It would be best to see a replay, but the most likely explanation is 1) your oracles aren't doing enough damage to slow down your opponent's economy and perhaps you need to fake some warp gate aggression or something OR 2) your colossus is just too late; like phoenix/colossus, you should have a colossus out ~10:00 to deal with these types of timings.
On November 21 2013 13:57 Salivanth wrote:
How do you play Alterzim PvZ? It seems the Zerg can just do whatever they like, the third is super-open, and taking a fourth is hard. It's like...the map is SO big that it's hard to attack Zerg, but they can go on the offense extremely well once I take a third, which I pretty much have to do due to the map's size.
The good thing about big maps is that distances don't affect warp gate  . DEM WARP PRISM ALLINS
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Canada13389 Posts
On November 21 2013 09:23 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 05:31 whatami wrote:
This is one that has been plagueing me quite a bit lately, even up in to Mid-high GM. What does one do, against a late game terran, who has Viking-Tank-Mass raven and a scattering of banshee/thor. He will almost always have a bigger army then you because of the SCV saccing allowed by mules, so engaging this is veeery difficult.
I've only really found two good answers to this kind of play. Answer the first, keep him contained to three bases, literally all game. Never try to engage his army, defend drops well. Eventually he will mine out and be forced to push out and you can use 2-3 maxed armies to kill him.
The second is to, wait for it, mass motherfucking carriers. I know this sounds silly, but a terran with no marine upgrades, and no marines, is not going to win versus 20-odd 3-3 carriers. I don't care how many ravens he has, spread your shit and he just can't get cost efficient.
I really wish I had better answers than this, but that's all I've been able to find so far. Happy to hear other opinions. I think vhapter is oversimplifying it a bit, but his response is the best one. Nothing terran has can touch tempest/cannon/HT; cost for cost, tempests are far superior to carriers in every single way. The key is already having an economic lead and good map vision. If you're not walking into the late game with complete map control and a strong position on the map, you're doing something wrong. As far as the mid game goes, immortal/blink stalker aided by some templar is generally the strongest way to take the protoss army on directly and split him in several different directions at once. To be honest, the mid and late game should be the easiest times for protoss. In my opinion, the only really scary things are two or three-base mech timings that hit before your third expansion can kick in fully.
Eh, I think I need to disagree a little here my friend. I think tempests vs a lot of ravens isn't the greatest matchup. I mean, I am sure if you camp non stop yeah tempest cannon storm is almost impossible to break. I mean feedback the PDD and good to go but I am not a fan of such a campy style myself. That will turn into something where you sit there and hope they throw units into you because once the map is split you can't push into him and he cant push into you.
Unfortunately, I think dinomight has the right idea with a 3 base contain. I was speaking to xenocider a little while ago and he mentioned how viking ghost is really not good because if protoss can kill the fourth and deny it multiple times, then stalkers and collossus/storm will do very well. Even with emp, the ghosts can't do much. I know its a different composition but the idea is the same from terran for engages.
You kill the obs, you use cloaked things to abuse protoss's ability to detect while out on the map. Its the same reason you see odd stalemates with cannons from PvT sometimes. Once that happens PFs are better stationary defense and sacking scvs means more army making it harder for protoss. I think letting terran get four bases is the concern there, and keeping them on three is the best course of action. I've even learned killing the third is hard for protoss, you trade to inefficiently and then you can't hold the death push well imo. I think containing the third is best while teching to tempest and forcing them to move before they have a bank from 3 base maybe??
I'm still trying to figure it out myself but I think the idea of 3 base contain is the best way to start. I dont know if 2-3 remaxed armies is the next step though, maybe forcing earlier trades while teching tempests might be first. I mean, if you threaten drops a lot they spend minerals on the turrets so they cant PF then if you are able to poke them with well timed tempests to force bad move outs so you dont need to remax 2-3 times to beat it? I feel like that part of the plan is a little iffy from dino. Otherwise a contain is sick, but going for tempests and cannons is so gas intensive it feels very passive allowing them a fourth or more bases with pfs that you wont be able to break later.
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On November 21 2013 14:02 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 11:10 darkness wrote:
Whenever I go FFE -> Stargate -> 2 oracles, I usually die to hydra/roach push at 9-10 min. Is it hard counter or am I making a big mistake? They attack me at my 3rd base. I'm just not sure how to harass zerg without taking a big risk. Probably warp prism + chargelot warpin is better? It would be best to see a replay, but the most likely explanation is 1) your oracles aren't doing enough damage to slow down your opponent's economy and perhaps you need to fake some warp gate aggression or something OR 2) your colossus is just too late; like phoenix/colossus, you should have a colossus out ~10:00 to deal with these types of timings.
As a player who mained Zerg throughout all of WoL, I have to second this. Hydras weren't nearly as popular back then (a few of them in ZvZ was the only place where they appeared if I remember it correctly) but I used them a lot anyway since, well, BW nostalgia. The Hydra vs. Collossus engagement isn't even funny as Zerg. "How about we position ourself in a way that maximises their damage to us?" God damn Hydras.
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United States4883 Posts
On November 21 2013 16:34 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 09:23 SC2John wrote:On November 21 2013 05:31 whatami wrote:
This is one that has been plagueing me quite a bit lately, even up in to Mid-high GM. What does one do, against a late game terran, who has Viking-Tank-Mass raven and a scattering of banshee/thor. He will almost always have a bigger army then you because of the SCV saccing allowed by mules, so engaging this is veeery difficult.
I've only really found two good answers to this kind of play. Answer the first, keep him contained to three bases, literally all game. Never try to engage his army, defend drops well. Eventually he will mine out and be forced to push out and you can use 2-3 maxed armies to kill him.
The second is to, wait for it, mass motherfucking carriers. I know this sounds silly, but a terran with no marine upgrades, and no marines, is not going to win versus 20-odd 3-3 carriers. I don't care how many ravens he has, spread your shit and he just can't get cost efficient.
I really wish I had better answers than this, but that's all I've been able to find so far. Happy to hear other opinions. I think vhapter is oversimplifying it a bit, but his response is the best one. Nothing terran has can touch tempest/cannon/HT; cost for cost, tempests are far superior to carriers in every single way. The key is already having an economic lead and good map vision. If you're not walking into the late game with complete map control and a strong position on the map, you're doing something wrong. As far as the mid game goes, immortal/blink stalker aided by some templar is generally the strongest way to take the protoss army on directly and split him in several different directions at once. To be honest, the mid and late game should be the easiest times for protoss. In my opinion, the only really scary things are two or three-base mech timings that hit before your third expansion can kick in fully. Eh, I think I need to disagree a little here my friend. I think tempests vs a lot of ravens isn't the greatest matchup. I mean, I am sure if you camp non stop yeah tempest cannon storm is almost impossible to break. I mean feedback the PDD and good to go but I am not a fan of such a campy style myself. That will turn into something where you sit there and hope they throw units into you because once the map is split you can't push into him and he cant push into you. Unfortunately, I think dinomight has the right idea with a 3 base contain. I was speaking to xenocider a little while ago and he mentioned how viking ghost is really not good because if protoss can kill the fourth and deny it multiple times, then stalkers and collossus/storm will do very well. Even with emp, the ghosts can't do much. I know its a different composition but the idea is the same from terran for engages. You kill the obs, you use cloaked things to abuse protoss's ability to detect while out on the map. Its the same reason you see odd stalemates with cannons from PvT sometimes. Once that happens PFs are better stationary defense and sacking scvs means more army making it harder for protoss. I think letting terran get four bases is the concern there, and keeping them on three is the best course of action. I've even learned killing the third is hard for protoss, you trade to inefficiently and then you can't hold the death push well imo. I think containing the third is best while teching to tempest and forcing them to move before they have a bank from 3 base maybe?? I'm still trying to figure it out myself but I think the idea of 3 base contain is the best way to start. I dont know if 2-3 remaxed armies is the next step though, maybe forcing earlier trades while teching tempests might be first. I mean, if you threaten drops a lot they spend minerals on the turrets so they cant PF then if you are able to poke them with well timed tempests to force bad move outs so you dont need to remax 2-3 times to beat it? I feel like that part of the plan is a little iffy from dino. Otherwise a contain is sick, but going for tempests and cannons is so gas intensive it feels very passive allowing them a fourth or more bases with pfs that you wont be able to break later.
Oh, against mech you should definitely trying to contain them on 3 bases, no doubt. But if you can't do that, an air transition with cannons and HT is literally unbreakable. At that point, there's literally nothing terran can do because their stuff will slowly get picked away by the tempests as you creep cannons. It's a really turtly style, but protoss definitely has the advantage if they can tech up to tempest/HT, start cannon farms on the map, and build a good bank up.
Of course, this type of style is a little harder on big, open maps like Alterzim or Whirlwind, but then again, so is mech.
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Edit: Sorry, I just saw the note of the thread. Forget about everything I wrote.
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does anyone know how to play against burrow roaches well? I just played a game where I saw him going heavy roach so i went double robo as i took my third, i pushed and killed his third, but lost my own. i pushed out with like 8 immortals, and 8 sentries, but with the fucking burrow, after i ff his army he just moves under my ff and we practiaclly traded armies. not sure how to hand that situation....
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ya that upgrade makes immortal sentry a bit weaker. I'd like to see pros use it more often to see how they'd use it exactly
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United States4883 Posts
On November 22 2013 13:10 aldochillbro wrote:
ya that upgrade makes immortal sentry a bit weaker. I'd like to see pros use it more often to see how they'd use it exactly
Yeah, same. It's hard to tell what works and what doesn't since these roach strategies are kind of new. Best to keep your eye on pro games and just do what seems the most intuitive (making immortals and/or void rays, walling off, etc.).
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EPT
