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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. |
On November 16 2013 04:12 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2013 15:55 Salivanth wrote:
Why do Protoss players in PvZ go Gateway Expand and then not pressure? It seems that FFE is better than 1-gate FE if you're not planning on forcing the Zerg to make units. Because Gateway expand always has the POTENTIAL to pressure. With FFE you literally can not attack so Zerg has nothing to fear. It depends on the build though. If they gateway FE into 4 gates, then they have to pressure otherwise they're behind. I usually 3 gate + forge and pressure if I see greed otherwise tech/expand. This pretty much. Alot of zergs are still unused to gateway expands and make either units to early or too late. If you think/scout zerg going for alot of units, there is no point in moving out as its both risky + you have already done "damage".
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Hey guys. I am switching to Toss from Zerg an I am frustrated. It's hard to build a base, position buildings, all that stuff, long story short: I need some guide on very basics of playing Protoss.
Also advice some good videos/streamers?
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On November 17 2013 05:37 Maphack wrote:
Hey guys. I am switching to Toss from Zerg an I am frustrated. It's hard to build a base, position buildings, all that stuff, long story short: I need some guide on very basics of playing Protoss.
Also advice some good videos/streamers?
State has some of the best building placement I've seen at least in PvT. You can download some of his replays and learn from his placement. As for the basics you'll need to pick a build order for each matchup, do it a lot vs ai and then just play a lot of games to learn the nuances.
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What are some good macro-based followups to 4-gate pressure in PvZ? (Off a Gateway expand)
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United States4883 Posts
On November 18 2013 03:22 SkyBlaze wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2013 02:08 Salivanth wrote:
What are some good macro-based followups to 4-gate pressure in PvZ? (Off a Gateway expand) for all and any of yor general PvZ needs go here. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=383628#1.3.2if you have a situation based problems please post a replay. and tell us at what time it is on the replay and what you think lead you to your downfall.
That guide is a little out of date regarding modern gateway expands.
If you go 4-gate pressure after gate expand, you HAVE to do damage (like killing the 3rd or killing ~10 drones) in order to break even with the zerg player. To be honest, if you do enough damage, you can follow up with just about anything (stargate, 2-base immortal allin, colossus 3rd, blink, etc.). If you don't do enough damage, I would suggest either stargate straight into void rays or some kind of safe robo-based expand.
Hope this helps!
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Very much so!
Another question, however; what if I do no damage, but the Zerg is on 2 bases and has made 2-3 spines? What's my position then? If Zerg hasn't taken a third, I tend to just prod a bit to force units and then waltz on home.
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United States7483 Posts
On November 18 2013 13:37 Salivanth wrote:
Very much so!
Another question, however; what if I do no damage, but the Zerg is on 2 bases and has made 2-3 spines? What's my position then? If Zerg hasn't taken a third, I tend to just prod a bit to force units and then waltz on home.
Then you're about to be hit by 2 base mutas, or 2 base swarmhost. The only other alternative is that old 2 base double evo zergling build that takes a late third and goes into ultralisks. 2 base hydra/ling or 2 base speed roach is a consideration too, but it's quite weak and you should be fine against it. You need to scout which and prepare for it.
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United States4883 Posts
On November 18 2013 13:37 Salivanth wrote:
Very much so!
Another question, however; what if I do no damage, but the Zerg is on 2 bases and has made 2-3 spines? What's my position then? If Zerg hasn't taken a third, I tend to just prod a bit to force units and then waltz on home.
If Naniwa doesn't scout a 3rd, he aborts immediately and techs up. You still can't take your 3rd, so you should just tech up. Generally, you also want to get a scout off at this time to know what you're facing (spire, swarm hosts, 2-base hydra, 2-base speedroach, double upgraded lings, etc).
Gateway expand into 4-gate is kind of a build order loss to 2-base zerg (meaning you're at a disadvantage), but if you play well you can overcome it. This is generally why gate expands into 3-gate pressure + tech are the more popular choice these days; it's a more middle of the road build, but usually sub masters zergs still lose their 3rds to the zealots lol.
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Okay, I'll try 3-gate pressure + tech; I've been meaning to learn more macro-ish styles anyway, but 4-gate is just so freaking powerful at the diamond level. If 3-gate can still accomplish most of the same goal and allow me to tech faster behind it I'm sold. What are the more standard/popular tech choices? I'm guessing forge or stargate?
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Italy12248 Posts
Sc2john to be precise, sub gm zergs lose their 3rds if you do your pressure right. It's fucking hilarious.
Anyway, imo vs any kind of techy crap yeah you better tech up. You won't be able to break him so by attacking you just make play right into his hands. I don't really consider double evo ultra/ling to be a 2base tech build though, he's not allining you like with hydra/ling, speedroach, swarm host and arguably muta rushes.
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So which tech paths are good to go for?
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Italy12248 Posts
Stargate imo, you get good scouting, an easy switch into colo and safety vs mutas.
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Thanks! Do you have any good game recommendations so I can see this 3-Gate Stargate style? I'm sure I've seen it before, but I don't want to go trawling through a ton of games to find them.
Of course, I don't expect you to do that either, I just wanted to know if you knew some off the top of your head.
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Austria24422 Posts
HerO vs Hyun at MLG (the Whirlwind game) and HerO vs Jaedong at IEM (game 3 on WW). HerO does an aggressive gateway expand with stargate (oracle first, but this is up to you. HerO being HerO just gets the oracle before phoenixes for extra harassment options that can end the game if zerg pulls their queens to defend the 3gate pressure)
The WW game against Hyun is absolute domination and as close to perfect execution as it gets. The game vs Jaedong shows you how he transitions into a standard game.
Btw you can find the exact build and notes on it on imbabuilds.com, that's where I learned it
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On November 17 2013 05:37 Maphack wrote:
Hey guys. I am switching to Toss from Zerg an I am frustrated. It's hard to build a base, position buildings, all that stuff, long story short: I need some guide on very basics of playing Protoss.
Also advice some good videos/streamers?
LOL, you mean Protoss is not as easy as you thought?? :p
JK just had to.
One of the hardest parts of playing Protoss is how unforgiving losing workers is. Terrans have MULES, Zerg can make 12+ drones at once. Protoss has to make sure their workers just don't die!
Here's a quick guide on sim city:
Against Terran and Protoss, you want to build your initial buildings close to your base, away from cliffs so they can't get hit by cannon rushes, cheeses, etc. You don't need a wall. You want the close to Nexus so they're within range of Nexus Cannon. You want more than 1 pylon reaching every building so they don't get unpowered during a fight. Once you build your natural expansion and add important tech buildings, position them between your main and natural so they are shielded from drops (against Terran) and protected by your army (against Protoss). Also cannons in your mineral line should be slightly closer to the direction the opponent is likely to fly in-out from, not just in the middle.
Against Zerg, the biggest objective early is 1) not die to zergling runbys 2) not reveal your tech. You want to put your vital tech buildings away from the edges of your base or anywhere that can easily be scouted by overlords. Also, you want to make sure you have a wall by 5:20. That's when speed finishes for Zerglings if they wen't 14/14.
Now on general Protoss Strategy relative to Zerg (random tips):
-Learn to properly use forcefields. I'm sure you're familiar with how hard good FF usage is to deal with 
-Your units are really strong early game, really terrible in the mid-game, and really strong late-game. This is why you see pros do early gateway attacks, turtle for a while as they take their third, and then move out again when their army is strong.
-Strategy is very important. It's very easy to counter a given Protoss unit composition if you know it's coming as Zerg. You need to disguise your build as much as possible and keep him guessing. Also, scout the Zerg very often to look for tech switches. If he started making Muta, don't assume he is still going Muta. Make sure the Muta flock hasn't increased in size and look for new tech buildings that could indicate a tech switch (like an ultralisk den).
-Never take a fight you don't think you can win. You want to make sure your units never die. You can't just trade units like you can as Zerg, you have to be fighting cost effectively and retaining your expensive tech units after fights (Colossus, Void Rays, Templar, etc.)
-Positioning is key! It's basically the opposite of Zerg. Try to fight in closed areas near choke points where you can limit the Zerg's ability to surround you. On open maps like Derelict Watcher, hug the sides and make lots of sentries.
-It's hard to know what to chrono boost all the time. The best way to think approach it for now is chrono workers until you are saturated on 3 bases (macroing). OR. Chrono something if your strategy requires you to get it faster (all-in play, defending cheese).
GLHF!
EDIT- also I love HerO to death but I wouldn't recommend watching him to learn from as a beginner Protoss. He and MC are both magicians. They do things that just seem impossible. And then you try them on ladder and get owned.
I'd watch someone like Incontrol, Grubby, Rain. They are much easier to copy IMO.
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I saw Stork hotkey a pylon with his Phoenix in PvP, why does he do that? I never saw it happen before. It concerned a PvP Phoenix v Phoenix. Is this also normal to do vs Zerg?!
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Italy12248 Posts
Since one of the first things taught to kespa players is efficient use of location hotkeys, i figure it's just because with his hotkey setup he has no room for a proxy pylon so he just uses a control group for it instead.
Or he just felt like spamming apm.
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I mean like, Controlgroup 3 consisted of 7 Phoenix (adding one more every time it finished) and 1 Pylon.
There was some space on the end of the keyboard whre he hotkeyed the Nexus 4 times, also, it was a pylon that was behind his mineral line.
Doesn't it change Phoenix behaviour in some way?
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EPT
