EPTAdditionally, what unit mixture should I be aiming for, ie is the a certain number of gateway units I should stop at? Sometimes I feel like I have a ton of colossus and no units to buffer. I'd post a replay but I'm not at home right now
The HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 194
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BestWaffelz
14 Posts
Additionally, what unit mixture should I be aiming for, ie is the a certain number of gateway units I should stop at? Sometimes I feel like I have a ton of colossus and no units to buffer. I'd post a replay but I'm not at home right now | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Olli
Austria24422 Posts
- 1 colossus with no range, double forge into templar archives -> third base (this is a fakeout to get terran to overreact to your colossus by making vikings. Since hallucination is free in HotS you can hallucinate a second colossus by the time your second colossus would normally finish and move out a bit to show it. That way you'll sell this fake even further) - 2 or 3 colossus with double/single forge into 3rd base and templar archives (this is the most standard colossus build) - Continued colossus production (up to 5) with double forge into third with delayed templar archives and heavy on blink stalkers (this is a counter build to popular SCV pull timings, especially Bomber's SCV pull that hits with 2/1, vikings off a single starport and a round of ghosts.) What you're doing sounds to me like a crossover between the second and third option. You keep producing colossi but also tech to storm after taking the third with double upgrades spinning. That's extremely expensive teching and in turn cuts into the money you have to spend on gateway units. I'd recommend doing the second option as your standard go-to colossus build. If you scout anything that makes you assume a heavy SCV pull timing, this build of course allows you to keep chronoboosting colossi while delaying your templar archives. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Double forge was more popular in early hots because toss players had a harder time taking a well timed third against the new medivacs. As they got better, single forge has been coming back because some players prefer to maximize their unit count and want to be slightly safer against scv trains. As time went on, standard colossus counts went from 3 to non stop production as toss players adapted their builds to scv pulls. This of course also delays their storm for a considerable amount of time. Sometimes players went 2 colossi with range (and even more rarely, without) straight into storm, but it's one of the most exploitable builds by scv pulls so it's almost entirely disappeared now. Finally, the one colo no range isn't necessarily to deceive the terran, although that's an added bonus. It simply makes holding off the 10 minute timing much easier. | ||
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Protossking
Australia103 Posts
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
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ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On November 12 2013 11:03 Protossking wrote: Why would you even want double forge when you open templar, all your damage is coming from storm, armour is so much more useful than weapons. because if you mis time your attack upgrades when you do switch to collossus or you do get into later game engagements you will lose the fights being 1-3 vs 3-3 terrans. | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On November 12 2013 12:42 darkness wrote: Would you recommend a straightforward (no all-in/cheese type) protoss to watch and learn from? Pretty much any top protoss player right now: Rain, Dear, Trap, and Naniwa are the best ones that come to mind as far as stealing builds goes. duckdeok, sOs, HerO, and MC can be tricky at times, but are still worth studying as long as you look at their overall game plan and compare several different games to see the minor differences. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On November 12 2013 13:37 SC2John wrote: Pretty much any top protoss player right now: Rain, Dear, Trap, and Naniwa are the best ones that come to mind as far as stealing builds goes. duckdeok, sOs, HerO, and MC can be tricky at times, but are still worth studying as long as you look at their overall game plan and compare several different games to see the minor differences. On November 12 2013 13:37 SC2John wrote: Pretty much any top protoss player right now: Rain, Dear, Trap, and Naniwa are the best ones that come to mind as far as stealing builds goes. duckdeok, sOs, HerO, and MC can be tricky at times, but are still worth studying as long as you look at their overall game plan and compare several different games to see the minor differences. I don't like learning from Rain tbh. His play is so overly safe, you really risk being outmacrod against opponent of the same skill as you. I think Naniwa is great though. He always has very crisp, well thought out builds and very clear game plans that cover everything from extreme greed to extreme aggression, so he's a great player to study and take ideas from. | ||
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HelpMeGetBetter
United States764 Posts
On November 02 2013 15:58 blooblooblahblah wrote: Whoa, are you actually playing ppl who go 20+ reapers? When he said mass reapers i thought he was talking about the 4-6 reaper openings that i see from time to time. And these sort of openings happen before you are even deciding whether you are going charge or colossi, and happens why before you actually have colossi. Yeah I should of clarified what I meant. Maybe up to 8 reapers. I guess you have to just turtle, since you can't move out on the map until you have more....stuff. | ||
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HelpMeGetBetter
United States764 Posts
So after I blink into their main what should I target? their units, buildings, add-ons, scv's? | ||
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Deckard.666
152 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On November 13 2013 02:48 Deckard.666 wrote: You should always try to avoid their units, targeting key structures instead, particularly addons (tech labs over reactors), and scv's (not as important though). As he comes to defend, time warp his army (ideal, but obviously you cant constantly use time warp) and move your stalkers next to a cliff while stutter stepping. As the fight goes, try to target fire marauders and blink the hurt stalkers back (to the low ground after you've reached a cliff). When all of your stalkers are in the low ground, you normally wait for a new round of warpins, put the new stalkers in the front, and blink in where their army is not. Rinse and repeat. Eventually, you'll be able to fight the army head on, at which point you've won. This is all good. Just to add, the most important things are: -sniping stim on the techlab -using time warp on the ramp to slow down units going back and forth between main and natural -targetting marauders | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
Also, PvZ has been hilarious on that map so far for me. All of my build timings are screwed up because I am so used to needing to invest in a wall for my natural but on that map I don't so I end up with too much money. It's a weird issue to have. I did manage to win one game with a switch into 5 stargate 2/2/3 carrier after I established my 6th base. I thought it would be a bad map for PvZ but since swarmhosts are kinda useless on it because of how huge it is(Yaaaaaaaaay!!!!), it has turned out to be quite fun as long as you lock down your bases well so they can't be killed by groups of zerglings. Mutas have been tricky though since it is so easy for them to go between the second and third bases so easily. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On November 13 2013 09:41 Ben... wrote: For Alterzim PvT, what are people's thoughts on what opener should be used? So far I have been going gateway-nexus-core rather than the usual gateway-core-nexus. It slows down warpgate a bit but due to the map size, seems well worth it. Is nexus first viable or are reapers still too dangerous, even with a map that huge? I have yet to try nexus first on it. Maybe I will tonight. You can always test some stuff like this yourself. Just see how long it takes for a reaper to get to each base on single player and make your decision based on that.  | ||
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Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
What should I do against this. If I go oracles too it's just a matter of the one playing the safest actually loses. If I go phoenix and he goes DTs I die. If I go DTs and he does robo I die. So fucking coinflippy. Seem to me like oracle speed buff is too much and everyone goes it all the time, and I cannot fucking be safe against everything. Frustrating as fuck. I love the map, but with the buff I am helpless in PvP. Would love to play PvZ on that map, but that is rare appearently | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On November 13 2013 10:29 Mozdk wrote: Yeah... so... Alterzim stronghold... PvP oracles... Every does fast expo into oracle (proxy at times) What should I do against this. If I go oracles too it's just a matter of the one playing the safest actually loses. If I go phoenix and he goes DTs I die. If I go DTs and he does robo I die. So fucking coinflippy. Seem to me like oracle speed buff is too much and everyone goes it all the time, and I cannot fucking be safe against everything. Frustrating as fuck. I love the map, but with the buff I am helpless in PvP. Would love to play PvZ on that map, but that is rare appearently It is pretty crazy, I used to be able to overcharge and use 2 stalkers to kill an oracle that over commits, now it flies in can be mismicroed then it leaves again haha. Im personally a fan of DT robo if I think he has robo I just dont commit with the DTs and I have the tech to counter, if he moves out and I use a prism to drop one in the nat and the other in the main. | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On November 13 2013 09:52 vhapter wrote: Well, I held off proxy 2rax reaper last night with a nexus first, so I'll be going nexus first for a while and seeing how that goes.You can always test some stuff like this yourself. Just see how long it takes for a reaper to get to each base on single player and make your decision based on that. I was just asking for input from the people who are actually good and not complete garbage like me. I was just wondering what other people were doing. Also, 4 wins with switches into mass carrier/templar on Alterzim. It's so hilarious. I am loving that map. Speed warp prisms are a must because harass seems even better on it than most maps because of how long it takes to reach. It's finally a map where zerg can't easily defend all their bases due to their fast army without planning (I've heard of Zergs already starting to use defensive nydus on it. Cool stuff). My Alterzim winrate so far is 83%. Usually my winrates are in the 50s for any given map. It's so nice to be able to play again. Stupid midterms. | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
On November 13 2013 09:41 Ben... wrote: For Alterzim PvT, what are people's thoughts on what opener should be used? So far I have been going gateway-nexus-core rather than the usual gateway-core-nexus. It slows down warpgate a bit but due to the map size, seems well worth it. Is nexus first viable or are reapers still too dangerous, even with a map that huge? I have yet to try nexus first on it. Maybe I will tonight. Also, PvZ has been hilarious on that map so far for me. All of my build timings are screwed up because I am so used to needing to invest in a wall for my natural but on that map I don't so I end up with too much money. It's a weird issue to have. I did manage to win one game with a switch into 5 stargate 2/2/3 carrier after I established my 6th base. I thought it would be a bad map for PvZ but since swarmhosts are kinda useless on it because of how huge it is(Yaaaaaaaaay!!!!), it has turned out to be quite fun as long as you lock down your bases well so they can't be killed by groups of zerglings. Mutas have been tricky though since it is so easy for them to go between the second and third bases so easily. Not too sure about the timings, but I usually get away with nexus first. Definitely viable on cross positions, and I think due to the very long scouting times it's risky but viable. | ||
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Xaeldaren
Ireland588 Posts
I'm pretty annoyed, I felt pvp was in a really good place but now it feels like it'll devolve into Blink > Phoenix > Oracle mind games. I could just be over-reacting though. | ||
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