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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. |
On November 07 2013 03:38 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2013 17:14 tar wrote:On November 05 2013 09:40 Teoita wrote:
Double robo colossus and zealot warpins to counter his immobility. Make sure to get templar in time vs any viper transitions. This is my go to response to standard sh play but lately I have encountered 2base sh/queen/nyuds pushes and they hit before I can get enough colossus out to stop the terrible terrible damge they do while sitting right outside my base. Assuming that killing the nydus did not work, what is one supposed to do? I did a lot of voidray into fast 3rd builds but they seem to auto lose against this :s Against the 2 base variant, a lot of void rays with the msc and proper micro can actually hold it. When I'm doing a VR into 3rd build, I often add another stargate and pump voids out of both while getting colossus tech up. Double stargate void ray has enough dps to kill locusts quickly and not lose anything, doesn't eat up a ton of minerals so you can zealot harass, and doesn't eat up all the gas off two base so you can keep teching. You do need to be really careful though to keep them from pushing forwards too much with the queens and spores, although the overcharge with proper micro can annihilate spores. It's dicey but I think you can hold it this way if you don't already have the robo. Just my own experience playing against high master/low grandmaster players doing this all-in, I don't have any pro replays to back this up. The most important thing when playing against this all-in build is to recognize that he's doing it, and establish a scouting perimeter around your base to try to kill the nydus worm as it goes up, or to force him to build the nydus further away. He wants to drop it right outside your base and creep his way in immediately to give you no time: the further you force the nydus, the more time you have to get counter tech. Voids are great for this, as no amount of lings or anything else can protect the nydus as it's going up from your voids.
could you be so kind as to share some of those replays? Going full air against this never worked for me. I figure I could be too impatient sitting up my ramp. Yet when I see those queens and spores positioning themselves outside my base then I just think: damn it, I gotta engage now... and well usually it's not going well :D
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United States7483 Posts
On November 08 2013 04:15 tar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2013 03:38 Whitewing wrote:On November 05 2013 17:14 tar wrote:On November 05 2013 09:40 Teoita wrote:
Double robo colossus and zealot warpins to counter his immobility. Make sure to get templar in time vs any viper transitions. This is my go to response to standard sh play but lately I have encountered 2base sh/queen/nyuds pushes and they hit before I can get enough colossus out to stop the terrible terrible damge they do while sitting right outside my base. Assuming that killing the nydus did not work, what is one supposed to do? I did a lot of voidray into fast 3rd builds but they seem to auto lose against this :s Against the 2 base variant, a lot of void rays with the msc and proper micro can actually hold it. When I'm doing a VR into 3rd build, I often add another stargate and pump voids out of both while getting colossus tech up. Double stargate void ray has enough dps to kill locusts quickly and not lose anything, doesn't eat up a ton of minerals so you can zealot harass, and doesn't eat up all the gas off two base so you can keep teching. You do need to be really careful though to keep them from pushing forwards too much with the queens and spores, although the overcharge with proper micro can annihilate spores. It's dicey but I think you can hold it this way if you don't already have the robo. Just my own experience playing against high master/low grandmaster players doing this all-in, I don't have any pro replays to back this up. The most important thing when playing against this all-in build is to recognize that he's doing it, and establish a scouting perimeter around your base to try to kill the nydus worm as it goes up, or to force him to build the nydus further away. He wants to drop it right outside your base and creep his way in immediately to give you no time: the further you force the nydus, the more time you have to get counter tech. Voids are great for this, as no amount of lings or anything else can protect the nydus as it's going up from your voids. could you be so kind as to share some of those replays? Going full air against this never worked for me. I figure I could be too impatient sitting up my ramp. Yet when I see those queens and spores positioning themselves outside my base then I just think: damn it, I gotta engage now... and well usually it's not going well :D
I don't have any recent ones, as I haven't played against this all-in in a while. I'll have to see if I can dig some up from my practice partners. I can't stress enough how important it is to delay the nydus going down or push it away from your base. You absolutely have to delay his push, but once you get enough voids, you can just park them over the locusts and they'll burn them down no problem. Queens by themselves don't kill voids, so as long as you can stop them from pushing forwards enough with good positioning and micro, you should have it. The nice thing about going voids is that it makes him spend a lot of money on queens and spores continuously rather than making drones or other units, and your zealot harass can be more effective.
But don't ever get impatient against this: you win by delaying long enough for zealot harass to do damage and for your tech to get out and counter. Unless you can win the engagement straight up, do not attack into it. Double robo colossus is one way to kill the locusts fast enough to not take damage, I think heavy voids can do it too since they share the attribute that makes colossi good vs locusts (can kill them reasonably quick without being shot by the locusts). The important thing to remember vs this all-in is that A: not many drones, B: No gas for anything but swarm hosts for a while, and swarm host count is low C: spire transition is common during the push, expect corrupters or mutas if the push isn't killing you outright, but it will take a little while, and there won't be a lot at first.
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On November 08 2013 03:52 SC2Toastie wrote:
Anybody know where I can find the vods of the new strategy in PvT of getting blink after expo?!
So I found 2:
Mc vs Hack WCS Season Finals Games 2/3. 2 all in, 3 more macro.
Anybody opinions/other vods??
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Diamond Protoss here. Sometime ago, I saw someone posting that it was rather easy to hold proxy 2gates nowadays with the use of the mothership core. However, I just can't seem to do it. Whether it is basetrading with it (too slow) or just trying to defend with it as long as possible, I still find it hard to believe that it is as easy as this user proclaimed.
Can someone inform me what the proper way is, assuming you scout it too late (after I've gone double gas, 3 probes in each)? I know that in the OP this is discussed somewhat, but most of the time, it is too late to throw down a forge/cannons, and I figure that it would be useful if I actually knew that this way was possible (or not).
So far I've been trying to go for a mothership core and a Stalker, and my guess would be that you'd have to defend long enough until photon overcharge (and not lose too many probes ofcourse), and send the core his way, but I never actually seem to be able to pull it off (most of the time the zealots just ravage through my probe line or pylons). But if that is the way, should I just practice on microing in these little situations?
Any other tips would be greatly appreciated.
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Italy12246 Posts
Yeah the best shot is probably pulling probes, keeping them alive and threatening surrounds on isolated zealots while you buy time for photon overcharge to kick in and put some damage on. I'm not entirely sure myself how to hold it though, so i just 13 scout my main and if necessary get up to 3 gates and pump zealots myself.
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I've recently bought HotS but I'm experienced in WoL. Can you guys help me catch up with meta? I'm protoss. Links to games (replays/VODs) would be nice, I'm especially interested in learning answers to various strategies such as swarm hosts, muta ling, etc. 
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Italy12246 Posts
Most faq's are in the op.
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Yeah, I've read explanations but actual played games would help me more to understand better. I think theory complimented with practice is more useful than theory alone.
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Italy12246 Posts
Well in that case just ask specific questions whenever you need to really; it's too broad of a question otherwise.
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Okay, so in this case, once I defend 1 rax marauder proxy, do I go for 1 base all-in or do I transition to 2nd base (all-in or eco then)? I've tried to do 2 base all-in with 4 colossi but I didn't succeed tbh. It may be because a couple of drops damaged me & destroyed my colossus tech.
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Why would you not have a nexus started against proxy marauders anyway? Marauders can't shoot your msc. It's like a free win in my experience. Just learn how to msc expand like all top protosses do nowadays.
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United States4883 Posts
On November 09 2013 12:12 darkness wrote:
Okay, so in this case, once I defend 1 rax marauder proxy, do I go for 1 base all-in or do I transition to 2nd base (all-in or eco then)? I've tried to do 2 base all-in with 4 colossi but I didn't succeed tbh. It may be because a couple of drops damaged me & destroyed my colossus tech.
Good question. The answer is you can do either.
When the terran goes for proxy marauder, they are delaying their CC and economy a lot, so they have to do a lot of damage in order for it to pay off. Afterwards, they have almost no units at home and it takes a lot of time for them to get the production up. That said, you can either:
1) If you lost almost no units and very little economy, you can do any kind of 1-base all-in (1 colossus no range, blink, 4-gate or 5-gate, warp prism 4-gate, etc.). Pick one and make that your go-to response so that you're always on point with a good plan. OR you can do....
2) Just do a poke with what units you have (generally a zealot/stalker/stalker/MSC) and force your opponent to make a bunker or die a horrible painful death. During this time, take a nexus and continue with your original game plan. I don't think a 4-colossus 2-base all-in will work unless you take literally no damage and he goes super greedy behind it; it hits far too late.
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On November 08 2013 08:36 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2013 03:52 SC2Toastie wrote:
Anybody know where I can find the vods of the new strategy in PvT of getting blink after expo?! So I found 2: Mc vs Hack WCS Season Finals Games 2/3. 2 all in, 3 more macro. Anybody opinions/other vods??
I'm pretty sure Duckdeok just beat Maru at Blizzcon with a blink after expo build on Yeonsu.
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United States4883 Posts
On November 08 2013 19:53 Nyrr wrote:
Diamond Protoss here. Sometime ago, I saw someone posting that it was rather easy to hold proxy 2gates nowadays with the use of the mothership core. However, I just can't seem to do it. Whether it is basetrading with it (too slow) or just trying to defend with it as long as possible, I still find it hard to believe that it is as easy as this user proclaimed.
Can someone inform me what the proper way is, assuming you scout it too late (after I've gone double gas, 3 probes in each)? I know that in the OP this is discussed somewhat, but most of the time, it is too late to throw down a forge/cannons, and I figure that it would be useful if I actually knew that this way was possible (or not).
So far I've been trying to go for a mothership core and a Stalker, and my guess would be that you'd have to defend long enough until photon overcharge (and not lose too many probes ofcourse), and send the core his way, but I never actually seem to be able to pull it off (most of the time the zealots just ravage through my probe line or pylons). But if that is the way, should I just practice on microing in these little situations?
Any other tips would be greatly appreciated.
On November 08 2013 19:57 Teoita wrote:
Yeah the best shot is probably pulling probes, keeping them alive and threatening surrounds on isolated zealots while you buy time for photon overcharge to kick in and put some damage on. I'm not entirely sure myself how to hold it though, so i just 13 scout my main and if necessary get up to 3 gates and pump zealots myself.
I've had a lot of success dealing with proxy 2-gate. I just scout my main after gateway (on 13) and build a second gateway if I spot it in my main. I pull ~6-8 probes with my initial zealot when the first zealots come in and I can usually surround the zealots or scare them away to buy time for more zealots. If you get even a single zealot lead, you're golden, even at the price of several probes. If it's proxied outside your main, the better choice is to just go zealot -> stalker with a MSC (skip warp gate) and pull 6-8 probes with your first zealot to buy time until you can get 2-3 stalkers out and photon overcharge. If you just need time for photon overcharge, just run your probes around your base. In both cases, make sure you're keeping tabs on if he's still making zealots. If he stops making zealots, you should too; from here, start warp gate and be wary of followup stuff (4-gate, DTs, blink allin, etc.).
And yeah, definitely get a friend to do it to you several times until you feel comfortable. I have a friend and sometimes all we do is cheese each other to practice.
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On November 08 2013 19:53 Nyrr wrote:
Diamond Protoss here. Sometime ago, I saw someone posting that it was rather easy to hold proxy 2gates nowadays with the use of the mothership core. However, I just can't seem to do it. Whether it is basetrading with it (too slow) or just trying to defend with it as long as possible, I still find it hard to believe that it is as easy as this user proclaimed.
Can someone inform me what the proper way is, assuming you scout it too late (after I've gone double gas, 3 probes in each)? I know that in the OP this is discussed somewhat, but most of the time, it is too late to throw down a forge/cannons, and I figure that it would be useful if I actually knew that this way was possible (or not).
So far I've been trying to go for a mothership core and a Stalker, and my guess would be that you'd have to defend long enough until photon overcharge (and not lose too many probes ofcourse), and send the core his way, but I never actually seem to be able to pull it off (most of the time the zealots just ravage through my probe line or pylons). But if that is the way, should I just practice on microing in these little situations?
Any other tips would be greatly appreciated.
http://flatlinesc2.com/2013/08/video/defending-proxy-gates-3-methods/
there's a 4th method that only applies if it's within your main where you pull 7-8 workers to force a cancel on the first gateway and contest the 2nd depending on the timing of their gateway while you are chronoboosting out your own zealot...if they finish a gateway and it's in the red, I usually leave it alone until he commits to making a zealot out of it (especially if they spend a chronoboost)...once he commits you just put your workers back on it and kill it so they just wasted a chronoboost and the zealot doesn't come out
Example of 4th method: http://www.mediafire.com/?riv5gbvmof542bp
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For a beginner protoss would this beginner guide (its old)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=343501
still be worthwhile to work through in getting my macro and stuff put together? I guess the question could also be phrased "Does the Starcraft 2 pyramid still work?" in HOTS? I just dont know if working on builds when my macro is terrible is productive or not. But I thought id ask here first.
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Canada13407 Posts
On November 10 2013 14:25 Gorship wrote:For a beginner protoss would this beginner guide (its old) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=343501still be worthwhile to work through in getting my macro and stuff put together? I guess the question could also be phrased "Does the Starcraft 2 pyramid still work?" in HOTS? I just dont know if working on builds when my macro is terrible is productive or not. But I thought id ask here first.
you should always work on builds while working on macro. Honestly, even if its just a four gate, it doesnt matter. you should start the good habit of learning builds now. Builds only work when you can macro well anyway so at the very least if you want a build you should try to learn at the very least be able to make workers and do the build properly in the first 5 minutes of the game. If you can do that, you are already ahead of many many beginners.
Most importantly you should have a plan for the game, but always remember to make probes and pylons, as they are the most important thing to begin to build muscle memory for.
I should add I don't like the guide because the skill level of players has shifted and just making basic units until plat probably isn't going to work for you, unless you have very very good macro mechanics and decision making.
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do any pro protoss go pheonix into storm instead of collosus? if it's not a thing, is it just that hydra-ling or hydra-roach is too strong?
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On November 10 2013 14:50 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2013 14:25 Gorship wrote:For a beginner protoss would this beginner guide (its old) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=343501still be worthwhile to work through in getting my macro and stuff put together? I guess the question could also be phrased "Does the Starcraft 2 pyramid still work?" in HOTS? I just dont know if working on builds when my macro is terrible is productive or not. But I thought id ask here first. you should always work on builds while working on macro. Honestly, even if its just a four gate, it doesnt matter. you should start the good habit of learning builds now. Builds only work when you can macro well anyway so at the very least if you want a build you should try to learn at the very least be able to make workers and do the build properly in the first 5 minutes of the game. If you can do that, you are already ahead of many many beginners. Most importantly you should have a plan for the game, but always remember to make probes and pylons, as they are the most important thing to begin to build muscle memory for. I should add I don't like the guide because the skill level of players has shifted and just making basic units until plat probably isn't going to work for you, unless you have very very good macro mechanics and decision making.
sorry if this is breaking the rules of the thread. just 2 quick things.
is a PvX build ok then? like could you do a 4gate without a msc and still win games? if so, would that be a build to practice then and get solid with? Or would it be better to find 3 separate builds and just have them written down in front of you and stick to them? If so where would be a good place to find builds as I have heard/found that TL wiki is a bit outdated.
Thanks for your reply
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United States4883 Posts
On November 10 2013 15:39 Gorship wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2013 14:50 ZeromuS wrote:On November 10 2013 14:25 Gorship wrote:For a beginner protoss would this beginner guide (its old) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=343501still be worthwhile to work through in getting my macro and stuff put together? I guess the question could also be phrased "Does the Starcraft 2 pyramid still work?" in HOTS? I just dont know if working on builds when my macro is terrible is productive or not. But I thought id ask here first. you should always work on builds while working on macro. Honestly, even if its just a four gate, it doesnt matter. you should start the good habit of learning builds now. Builds only work when you can macro well anyway so at the very least if you want a build you should try to learn at the very least be able to make workers and do the build properly in the first 5 minutes of the game. If you can do that, you are already ahead of many many beginners. Most importantly you should have a plan for the game, but always remember to make probes and pylons, as they are the most important thing to begin to build muscle memory for. I should add I don't like the guide because the skill level of players has shifted and just making basic units until plat probably isn't going to work for you, unless you have very very good macro mechanics and decision making. sorry if this is breaking the rules of the thread. just 2 quick things. is a PvX build ok then? like could you do a 4gate without a msc and still win games? if so, would that be a build to practice then and get solid with? Or would it be better to find 3 separate builds and just have them written down in front of you and stick to them? If so where would be a good place to find builds as I have heard/found that TL wiki is a bit outdated. Thanks for your reply
I think you should come up with very simple (but well developed) game plans for each matchup and then practice executing them perfectly. For instance, you might do a 2-base immortal all-in in PvZ (The MAN train). Write down your specific goals and learn the build and then focus on making sure you're hitting every single probe, every single pylon, every single chronoboost, and that your timings are as close as possible to the pro players' timings.
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EPT
