EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 195
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
PvP moves in mysterious ways | ||
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SkyBlaze
Canada191 Posts
after that is mostly a play calling if you can push him just warp in stalkers if not, back off and warp in more archon and zealots and just keep delaying his 3rd. Edit~ 1 gate FE and 2 gate FE , should be about the same when income just that 1 gate fe I feel is a bit greedy and lose to a lot of pressure moves, compared to 2gate FE which i do. the repsonse should be the same tho | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Other than that yeah, yours is a good reaction. It's not that oracle builds somehow shut down 1gate fe, and all of a sudden everyone is going oracle (at least, not in my experience). It's just that PvP has always been a very build oriented matchups, and with a few differences the bo's themselvs are still somewhat similar. It used to be that phoenix>2gate robo expo, now you have oracle>1gate fe into robo. It's just how the game goes. | ||
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TarLaPaN
United States113 Posts
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On November 14 2013 20:03 TarLaPaN wrote: I've got away with nexus-gateway-core every game so far, including against a 9pool, and won. I doubt 6pool would work unless you got extra lucky and the first position you scout is the right one. It only seldom worked on maps like Tal'Darim Altar and Whirlwind and given that this map is even bigger, it would theoretically have an even smaller chance of working unless the Protoss played extra greedy.Becuase of the backdoor expo on alterzim, what do you think we can get away with in PvZ, while still being safe against early pools? I was thinking since the map is so freaking large 6 pools might not be so common. For that map in PvT, I've also held the standard reaper opening and reactive 2rax pressure (after they scouted nexus first) with nexus first a few times now so it seems like nexus first is the way to go for that matchup too. I just go 16 nexus/17 gateway/17 pylon and then chrono out my first zealot out and keep the reaper busy until my mothership core pops. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
I used to be high diamond league and stopped playing for a while. Now I'm in platinum (thanks MMR decay). I'm really struggling vs. Zerg lately. As in my win rate is 20% vs. Z in Platinum (my PvT and PvP are 80% and 73% respectively). Since all the maps are kind of hard to take a third on, Zergs are just blind countering 2 base allins by going early spines/roaches, and then marching on my third with Speedlings and then Roach/Hydra as soon as I try to take it. I'm finding it pretty impossible to defend a third on maps like Star Station. Does anyone have any advice? Any good all-in that you have been using lately? The ones on the main page are all a bit dated for me. ALSO - it seems like every single Zerg has caught on to drone scouting to the point where FFE is not really viable anymore. I've been Hatch blocked soo many times this week... Gateway expanding has become fairly predictable and a lot of Zergs are ready for the 3-4 gate pressure that follows it...  | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On November 15 2013 06:10 DinoMight wrote: I would recommend watching Nony's stream and studying his PvZ style. Rather than proxying a pylon and warping stuff in he has a zealot/sentry/mothership core timing he uses to pressure the third with intention of recalling as soon as things start to get sketchy (If the zerg plays safe, it forces units and you might get some drones. If the zerg plays greedy you can usually kill the third, a queen or two, and some units). I used to have huge issues with PvZ too but after learning this style, I am now quite comfortable in the matchup as this pressure style leads well both into all-ins and macro play so it lets me do as I please rather than be dictated by what the Zerg is doing. It's difficult to explain how to play it, you just have to see him play it for a few games and it will make sense. I think he has VODs on his Twitch page.Hey guys, I used to be high diamond league and stopped playing for a while. Now I'm in platinum (thanks MMR decay). I'm really struggling vs. Zerg lately. As in my win rate is 20% vs. Z in Platinum (my PvT and PvP are 80% and 73% respectively). Since all the maps are kind of hard to take a third on, Zergs are just blind countering 2 base allins by going early spines/roaches, and then marching on my third with Speedlings and then Roach/Hydra as soon as I try to take it. I'm finding it pretty impossible to defend a third on maps like Star Station. Does anyone have any advice? Any good all-in that you have been using lately? The ones on the main page are all a bit dated for me. ALSO - it seems like every single Zerg has caught on to drone scouting to the point where FFE is not really viable anymore. I've been Hatch blocked soo many times this week... Gateway expanding has become fairly predictable and a lot of Zergs are ready for the 3-4 gate pressure that follows it... Also, I veto Star Station. The old version of that map traumatized me enough, and after a few games on the new one it feels like the new version solved none of the issues that made the old version difficult to play on. As for the Hatch block thing, I don't know. I have seen Zergs straight up blind hatch block some games lately on 2 player maps. I don't know why they do it. I usually win if that happens so I don't mind but it seems kinda dumb. A zealot and mothership core can kill the hatch pretty effectively. | ||
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Salivanth
Australia1071 Posts
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On November 15 2013 15:55 Salivanth wrote: Why do Protoss players in PvZ go Gateway Expand and then not pressure? It seems that FFE is better than 1-gate FE if you're not planning on forcing the Zerg to make units. Because Gateway expand always has the POTENTIAL to pressure. With FFE you literally can not attack so Zerg has nothing to fear. It depends on the build though. If they gateway FE into 4 gates, then they have to pressure otherwise they're behind. I usually 3 gate + forge and pressure if I see greed otherwise tech/expand. | ||
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
On November 15 2013 15:55 Salivanth wrote: Why do Protoss players in PvZ go Gateway Expand and then not pressure? It seems that FFE is better than 1-gate FE if you're not planning on forcing the Zerg to make units. Gate expand actually allows you to play a little greedier than FFE with the MSC (MSC comes up faster) MSC > cannons defensively speaking | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On November 15 2013 15:55 Salivanth wrote: Why do Protoss players in PvZ go Gateway Expand and then not pressure? It seems that FFE is better than 1-gate FE if you're not planning on forcing the Zerg to make units. Which players are you watching? Protoss players DO pressure off gateway expands. The cybernetics core gives the Protoss tech options much sooner than an FFE, in exchange for a miniscule hit to the Protoss economy. Faster warpgate pressure, faster stargate pressure, faster warp prism harass, etc. Ironically, Gateway expand is not the aggressive route, it's the greedier route -- greedy in terms of grabbing your tech more quickly. Zerg's have made it a habit to double expand when they see no pylon at the front wall of a Gateway expand because it can't react and stop the third hatch -- but an FFE can. (feel free to correct me if this last statement is no longer true on ladder, I haven't played in a while) | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
The misconception of "gateway fe techs faster" comes from the days when P would go +1, stalker and warpgate before tech, sometimes even get a second cannon, against 1base tech>expo like stargate expand. The real strengths of gateway fe are 1) the threat of a much faster warpgate alone forces zerg into being much more careful and 2) it's safer. Both styles are perfectly viable though, and in fact i've been told that top korean protoss players prefer FFE. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On November 16 2013 06:48 Teoita wrote: I don't think gateway FE necessarily techs faster than FFE. FFE can have a stargate started by 5:25 ish, which is at the very least comparable to when gateway fe can start teching. The misconception of "gateway fe techs faster" comes from the days when P would go +1, stalker and warpgate before tech, sometimes even get a second cannon, against 1base tech>expo like stargate expand. The real strengths of gateway fe are 1) the threat of a much faster warpgate alone forces zerg into being much more careful and 2) it's safer. Both styles are perfectly viable though, and in fact i've been told that top korean protoss players prefer FFE. Warp gate and stalkers are tech though, even if low tier. The Stargate wasn't my main point as much as the significantly faster cybernetics core (which means faster wg and tech structures). | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
By tech i meant "advanced tech route", ie stargate/robo/council. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On November 16 2013 07:20 Teoita wrote: Yeah but it's not like stalkers a few minutes earlier are game changing. Warpgate on the other hand is, especially with hots where you dont need 6 sentries to hold defend your natural (which goes back to my original point). By tech i meant "advanced tech route", ie stargate/robo/council. I didn't say advanced tech though. I just said that a faster cybernetics core from the perspective of gateway vs forge fe means you're teching faster. We're basically in agreement in every way aside from how to describe what a faster core/wg/tier 1.5 units/tier 2 buildings mean. edit: Tech options requires there to exist other options, which then has to also assume that anything that doesn't branch off into multiple options isn't tech. But building a cybernetics core and upgrading warp gate fit the broad definition of tech, which is what I describe; an investment which pays off later on by expanding the possibilities of what you originally started with Gateway FE is an expansion prioritizing tech (which for protoss means aggression), and FFE is an expansion prioritizing economy is my underlining point. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
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Turbogangsta
Australia319 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Neural parassite was never even useful against that comp. For one, there aren't big obvious targets like with colossus armies. Controlling an immortal doesnt do much because archons and immortals aren't armored; controlling an archon means that a few zealots die faster but zealots are very cheap and replacable. Zealots slamming into a the zerg army without any spine crawler protection means that it's harder for infestors to get spells off in general. Also, it's not even realistic to expect to have 10 or so mind controls to take hold of every toss gas unit at the 13/14 minute mark. Fungal growth is really, really good because zealots and archons have very short range, but it's not easy to close in enough to land it. The real counter to that composition was (and still is) broodlords and now swarm hosts, which is why it was used as a 3base all-in to kill the Z before hive tech could kick in. | ||
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