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On November 04 2013 04:48 Teoita wrote: Yeah the one colo no range timing is a really strong push too
I think it's the best follow up. I almost always play DT expand in PvP, and when my opponent goes fast colossi after robo expand, even without pushing, I feel I'm in a really bad position because since my expo was late and I've invested a lot in dt tech I don't have enough gas to get upgrades, sentries for scouting, and my own colossi. Then obviously going for a push is better because your opponent most likely will have a bunch of zealots + few archons which a colossus is great against.
Would it be possible to completely wall off my natural in order to fend off these DT counter-attacks?
I mean, here's the way I see it. The DT player has a weak army, so he can't push out. So I can keep my army just outside my natural so the wall doesn't trap it in, and as my Colossus is building for the 1-Colossus push, wall off with the 4 gates I have to make for production anyway. The Colossus itself can just cliff-walk out of the base, and I can use warp-ins for everything else by that point. When my opponent tries the DT counter-attack, he's met with a wall of gateways, giving me plenty of time to just warp in like, one Stalker at home.
Investing in gates at your natural should only be done in an emergency (as in, you scout a chargelot/archon all-in). Otherwise making 3 gates at your front for no reason is a huge investment for really little return, it's much better to just keep back an obs and warp in/pull probes as necessary. You might even leave back the msc, dunno. All of those are better investments than a bunch of idle gates that will just get in the way later in the game.
On November 04 2013 17:30 IIUrsakarII wrote: Hi guys! I have some issues dealing with mech in PvT the early drops/runby/Mines are not a problem but the lategame composition is! What do u do if the terran goes heavy thor hellbat tank? And i'd like to know if some all ins were able to punish a terran who is going mech?
as general rules i've made up: 1. i think it's better to be high on units and not too upgrade heavy vs mech at least right away. I wouldn't immediately go double forge. 2. i'd take an earlyish third if you don't see a tank push coming. spot with observers ofc
I'm new to HotS, and I'm struggling against swarm hosts. What's the best way to counter them? Mass colossi? Air? How does it depend? Every time I clean a wave, another one is on their way, so I'm just losing.
Could somebody post the 15-ish gate/nexus build I've seen some pro players doing on large maps in PvT? It was meant to get the fastest possible nexus while still surviving reapers. I think Naniwa did iton whirlwind in one of his most recent tournaments. I couldn't find the build anywhere.
In PvP lategame, if both players go chargelot/archon/immortal I've recently seen both tempest and double robo colossus transitions. You usually want to be reactive with your teching but what's the better choice when you're slightly ahead and want to make the first step? If you go down a tempest route they might respond with pure ground mass archon/chargelot. If you go colossus and they're not too far behind there's a timer on you before he has enough tempests out, assuming he scouts and reacts correctly.
After chargelot/archon/immortal I usually add a dark shrine and warp prism and start being aggressive while transitioning and expanding. Just looking for the most stable and safe way to push that advantage.
On November 05 2013 09:40 Teoita wrote: Double robo colossus and zealot warpins to counter his immobility. Make sure to get templar in time vs any viper transitions.
This is my go to response to standard sh play but lately I have encountered 2base sh/queen/nyuds pushes and they hit before I can get enough colossus out to stop the terrible terrible damge they do while sitting right outside my base. Assuming that killing the nydus did not work, what is one supposed to do? I did a lot of voidray into fast 3rd builds but they seem to auto lose against this :s
Yeah they pretty much do, no point going fast third when the z is 2base allining you anyway. The response is pretty similar only double robo is much harder to afford. A good game to learn how to beat 2base sh is this:
On November 05 2013 11:21 BestWaffelz wrote: Could somebody post the 15-ish gate/nexus build I've seen some pro players doing on large maps in PvT? It was meant to get the fastest possible nexus while still surviving reapers. I think Naniwa did iton whirlwind in one of his most recent tournaments. I couldn't find the build anywhere.
I don't know the exact build you are referring to, but on big maps such as Whirlwind you can possibly get away with a nexus at 17 supply after gateway. I've done it multiple times, and it works. Terrans sometimes go CC first on these maps so it helps you to catch up.
Here is the basic outline: (chronoboost throughout) 13 - Gateway 17 - Plop down your nexus - double gas, pylon and scout if you want - cybercore when gateway finishes
This FE build allows you to get your MSC and stalker out fairly early, but you might need to micro your probes if the Terran scouted you early and sent a reaper. After you fended off his reaper, transition into a suitable tech build.
On November 05 2013 09:40 Teoita wrote: Double robo colossus and zealot warpins to counter his immobility. Make sure to get templar in time vs any viper transitions.
This is my go to response to standard sh play but lately I have encountered 2base sh/queen/nyuds pushes and they hit before I can get enough colossus out to stop the terrible terrible damge they do while sitting right outside my base. Assuming that killing the nydus did not work, what is one supposed to do? I did a lot of voidray into fast 3rd builds but they seem to auto lose against this :s
Against nydus swarm host builds you should immediately get a warp prism and harass your opponent's base, this should at least buy you some time. However I still lost games where I completely killed their main base but they still won because they expanded close to where the nydus was (typically in my third base) and I couldn't get out of my natural. I honestly don't know what to do in those situations. By theorycrafting (because nydus swarm host is still quite uncommon as a strategy) I thought that maybe you could break the contain by getting quickly a ton of blink stalkers and bypassing the locust flow by blinking out of your main/natural.
On November 05 2013 09:40 Teoita wrote: Double robo colossus and zealot warpins to counter his immobility. Make sure to get templar in time vs any viper transitions.
This is my go to response to standard sh play but lately I have encountered 2base sh/queen/nyuds pushes and they hit before I can get enough colossus out to stop the terrible terrible damge they do while sitting right outside my base. Assuming that killing the nydus did not work, what is one supposed to do? I did a lot of voidray into fast 3rd builds but they seem to auto lose against this :s
Against the 2 base variant, a lot of void rays with the msc and proper micro can actually hold it. When I'm doing a VR into 3rd build, I often add another stargate and pump voids out of both while getting colossus tech up. Double stargate void ray has enough dps to kill locusts quickly and not lose anything, doesn't eat up a ton of minerals so you can zealot harass, and doesn't eat up all the gas off two base so you can keep teching. You do need to be really careful though to keep them from pushing forwards too much with the queens and spores, although the overcharge with proper micro can annihilate spores.
It's dicey but I think you can hold it this way if you don't already have the robo. Just my own experience playing against high master/low grandmaster players doing this all-in, I don't have any pro replays to back this up.
The most important thing when playing against this all-in build is to recognize that he's doing it, and establish a scouting perimeter around your base to try to kill the nydus worm as it goes up, or to force him to build the nydus further away. He wants to drop it right outside your base and creep his way in immediately to give you no time: the further you force the nydus, the more time you have to get counter tech. Voids are great for this, as no amount of lings or anything else can protect the nydus as it's going up from your voids.
On November 05 2013 06:15 Teoita wrote: Investing in gates at your natural should only be done in an emergency (as in, you scout a chargelot/archon all-in). Otherwise making 3 gates at your front for no reason is a huge investment for really little return, it's much better to just keep back an obs and warp in/pull probes as necessary. You might even leave back the msc, dunno. All of those are better investments than a bunch of idle gates that will just get in the way later in the game.
I should clarify; this was meant to be a follow-up to an earlier question of "Can I use a 2-base all-in to kill an opponent who opens DT's and does no damage"
So the idea would be that I make these gates anyway. I want ~7 gates of production for the attack itself, so they aren't going to be idle gates at all.
So to extend the question so it's self-contained:
If my opponent goes for DT's against my 2-gate FE, does no damage, and I decide to capitalise on this with a 2-base all-in (Either Immortals with 6-7 gates, or a 1 colossus no range all-in with 7 gates) could I put the second wave of gates (I.e, gates 4-7) at my natural to wall off my ramp in order to help fend off DT counter-attacks for minimal investment?
So I realised today that I am somehow a diamond protoss who doesn't know how to hold off a roach ling all in at about 6 mins 30 seconds with 17 nexus. Wide natural ramp, I know it sucks. He came with some lings and 8+ roaches with more rallied.
I thought 3 cannons would be enough, but apparently not. I do not think I had the time to get sentries out, and to be frank, even if I had one sentry, I do not think it would have made much difference. What happened was that he could snipe the cannons even with a gatex2 cyber forge wall in the way, aka the solidest wall you can get. I thought my placement was bad, having cannons flush with the wall, but I tried it out and if you leave just one square between cannons and the wall, the roaches can bust down the wall with impunity.
Now I know the answer is obviously more cannons, but here's the thing, I knew he was 1 basing, I knew he had at least 4 roaches, and I knew it would be a roach push. What I don't know is whether it's just 7 roaches into expo or a massive all-in. I mean I could have made 6 cannons and held comfortably, but what if it was something else dumb like 1 base muta or fastest nydus ever, that a mass of cannons in front is obviously worthless against?
On November 07 2013 23:43 shadymmj wrote: So I realised today that I am somehow a diamond protoss who doesn't know how to hold off a roach ling all in at about 6 mins 30 seconds with 17 nexus. Wide natural ramp, I know it sucks. He came with some lings and 8+ roaches with more rallied.
I thought 3 cannons would be enough, but apparently not. I do not think I had the time to get sentries out, and to be frank, even if I had one sentry, I do not think it would have made much difference. What happened was that he could snipe the cannons even with a gatex2 cyber forge wall in the way, aka the solidest wall you can get. I thought my placement was bad, having cannons flush with the wall, but I tried it out and if you leave just one square between cannons and the wall, the roaches can bust down the wall with impunity.
Now I know the answer is obviously more cannons, but here's the thing, I knew he was 1 basing, I knew he had at least 4 roaches, and I knew it would be a roach push. What I don't know is whether it's just 7 roaches into expo or a massive all-in. I mean I could have made 6 cannons and held comfortably, but what if it was something else dumb like 1 base muta or fastest nydus ever, that a mass of cannons in front is obviously worthless against?
I really wouldn't recommend 6 cannons, like you said muta play would kill it and nydus roach would just bypass it. I think getting anything ranged out will help. I don't know the situation exactly, but here's what I would do: -try to focus fire with cannons if you have the apm. it helps - stalkers are you best friend for this rush. your stalker does not die. he is invincible because you can kite roaches. make sure your stalker is by the ramp so it can't get chased down at your natural. chronoboost him out and have that be the main unit to defend -chronoboost your mothership core out. it can't be attacked and will kill the roaches eventually. focus fire with them. -a sentry can be useful in a lot of situations to keep the roaches from targeting single cannons. a good ff can make it so that he has to be hit by 2 or 3 of them instead of just 1. I wouldn't exactly recommend a sentry in this situation though right away. -don't let him kill a lot of probes. you can just pull them to the main and try to defend it. -if your wall breaks, try to fix it so lings/roaches don't come in uncontested
tldr; 3 cannons is fine imo. get out a stalker/msc then chrono stalkers. both these units cannot be hit by roaches given your micro is good
edit: i didn't see he had lings too. if it's that big of an attack then you can make a sentry and make sure he doesn't make it up your main ramp right away. also, I wouldn't hesitate to back your stalker up with probes to fight as long as you don't throw them away. fighting roaches with probes is a desperation move
If you know he's onebasing, "7roaches into expo" is a god awful build for him because it leaves him on one hatch vs 2 nexi for the longest time, so no need to worry about that. One base muta isn't even a thing. Holding off nydus comes down to patrolling your perimenter and killing it with probes so it really doesn't have much to do with cannons at your front. One base muta isn't even a thing, no need to worry about it.
If you chronoboost out sentries you can still potentially get a 2-3 in time (depends on what kind of bust he's doing). It's not enough to ff the roaches completely, but they do buy you enough time for both extra cannons to complete and potentially for tech to kick in. I personally think holding off the allin is better with sentries than stalkers because while you can kite the roaches, it's kinda hard to control perfectly (and my micro was never my strongest point).
Finally, against any kind of zerg cheesy opening Stargate is really strong because the single void ray shuts down both roach attacks and nydus spots.
How do I deal with the Swarm host/corrupter mid game? I can never seem to engage properly. Even with double robo collosus they just sack all their corrupters to kill my collosi and since they have 2 armour and a ton of health (plus the mobility of being air) I can't kill them before they kill all my collosi. So the Swarm hosts are left and I'm stuck with no splash. Usually they just run away with the swarm hosts before I can kill too many of them. And get as many corrupters they need back near instantly while I'm chronoboosting collosi.
I do a lot of warp prism play and harass with zealot warp ins but they never seem to do enough damage compared to the Zergs assault on my base with the locusts.
EPT
