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I recently started going for a 2 Zealot, MSC attack into fast 3 gate warpin pressure (@ ~ 6:50). After that i transition into a 6 gate blink stalker attack behind which i want to take my third. In this game, my initial pressure fails just barely to kill his third. i come back 1 minute later to finish it off. my followup blink stalker attack hits just as the mutas hatch and i manage to kill his natural, main and fourth base. After that i just can't seem to get up my third or kill him because i run into spine crawler walls.
What could i have done better? Do i have to switch into 2 stargate phoenix if i see mutas? It just feels like he can deny bases all day long and i starve out slowly, even though i kept killing his outlying bases.
On October 28 2013 00:24 Protossking wrote: Wondering what you guys think is the best response to 15hatch in your natural vs Gate expand builds. I know the standard way to hold the 3rd hatch in natural is by pulling 5 or so probes with a zealot and forcing a cancel on it, this doesn't seem to work/be worth the investment vs a faster hatch in the natural. I've tried going robo and doing a slower expand with an observer but this seems to put me behind too.
I think robo is the worst follow up you could go for. Maybe a warp prism drop can work, but you don't have the economy to warp in a lot of units unless you really commit and it's not guaranteed to do a lot of damage anyway. Stargate is probably the best choice, you can get an oracle to apply pressure immediately or defend from speedlings, then switch to phoenixes/void rays. Dts can work too if you deny scouting, but as usual they are too risky. You always need to push somehow because you are behind in economy but you should have a larger army, forcing him to build units and then recalling back home is already useful.
I wouldn't recommend anything except for canceling the hatchery with probes and zealots.
you already said the robo is bad choice as well as dt's.
stargate isn't good because everything can be shut down really easily. if you go stargate and your opponent sets up a contain with like 2 queens, a few spores and a few spines then you just lose. not to mention an oracle gets shut down by 1 spore per base
I didn't say "go stargate 3 gate all in". I said that with the money you find yourself with since you can't build a nexus the best thing to do is getting 2nd gas and a stargate, but this doesn't delay your expansion more than the hatch block does. Even if you don't do damage stargate at least gives you map control and scouting.
On October 28 2013 00:24 Protossking wrote: Wondering what you guys think is the best response to 15hatch in your natural vs Gate expand builds. I know the standard way to hold the 3rd hatch in natural is by pulling 5 or so probes with a zealot and forcing a cancel on it, this doesn't seem to work/be worth the investment vs a faster hatch in the natural. I've tried going robo and doing a slower expand with an observer but this seems to put me behind too.
I think robo is the worst follow up you could go for. Maybe a warp prism drop can work, but you don't have the economy to warp in a lot of units unless you really commit and it's not guaranteed to do a lot of damage anyway. Stargate is probably the best choice, you can get an oracle to apply pressure immediately or defend from speedlings, then switch to phoenixes/void rays. Dts can work too if you deny scouting, but as usual they are too risky. You always need to push somehow because you are behind in economy but you should have a larger army, forcing him to build units and then recalling back home is already useful.
I wouldn't recommend anything except for canceling the hatchery with probes and zealots.
you already said the robo is bad choice as well as dt's.
stargate isn't good because everything can be shut down really easily. if you go stargate and your opponent sets up a contain with like 2 queens, a few spores and a few spines then you just lose. not to mention an oracle gets shut down by 1 spore per base
If your stargate play is shut down very easily then either: 1. Zerg overcommited on defense, which is good for you. 2. You aren't microing correctly.
On August 20 2013 09:32 HelpMeGetBetter wrote: I am so lost in PvT, it's really depressing me... In WOL, PvT was my best matchup by far. I would get a PvT matchup and I would just assume a win for me. Now I have no idea what to do. I feel like I can't move out onto the map for the first 15mins of the game thanks to widow mines and super-medivacs.
All I do know is that I have to get a stalker and obs out as quickly as possible. Stalker to defend against reaper, and Robo to spot the obvious widow mines drops. And taking a third is downright impossible for me thanks to, like I said, super-medivacs spreading my units out. Why does one medivac of units do some much damage....I dont get it.
Okay, my rambling is done...
A replay is generally more helpful, but here are some quick tips:
1) Look at doing some new metagame builds. In WoL, the general play was to 1-gate FE, get 2 more gateways, then add double forge, then add colossus bay + twilight. In HotS, you should either be doing a) a MsC expand (22 nexus) or b) a 1-gate FE with a really aggressive zealot/stalker/MsC poke. You should then follow up with forges before gateways. The rest is approximately the same, but you can start off much greedier in HotS.
2) When getting ready to take a 3rd, simply leave 3-5 zealots/MsC in your main while pushing out with your main army. With the new medivacs, you just need to have a few units already in position; you can't just rely on emergency warpins. Between nexus cannon and a few units sitting at home, you should have no problem dealing with drops while taking a 3rd (unless your opponent is INnoVation).
3) Just survive until you have 3 bases, storm, and colossus out. Once you have that, you're basically set. Check out some Rain games or maybe First vs. FantaSy (OSL) for some ideas.
You should only go with 2 forges before 2nd and 3rd gateway if you're not doing a build like the 2-base templar pvt right?
Not necessarily, you can double forge with both templar and colossus; it's standard to get them after 2nd and 3rd gates usually. Double forge templar is super gas hungry though, so you will likely hit a spot where you have to choose between getting storm and templar, and starting your next round of upgrades, which is why i've never really liked it.
There's a specific build that goes gate>double forge>double gate into a 2/2 zealot archon all-in, but that's quite different. You can take a look at Flash vs Parting on Star Station from WCS KR S1 to study that build, which again, is very different from 3gate robo/double forge macro play.
On November 02 2013 10:39 HelpMeGetBetter wrote: Already can't beat Terren as it is. But what is the proper response to a mass Reaper opening?
This is fairly uncommon at my level, but I've played against it once or twice. As far as I know, the best response when opening with an expand into robo is either: blink stalker all-in or immortals into some kind of 2-base bust.
On November 02 2013 10:39 HelpMeGetBetter wrote: Already can't beat Terren as it is. But what is the proper response to a mass Reaper opening?
This is fairly uncommon at my level, but I've played against it once or twice. As far as I know, the best response when opening with an expand into robo is either: blink stalker all-in or immortals into some kind of 2-base bust.
I figure its something off of 1 base. Because with about 7-8 (or more) reapers on the map, its very hard to protect both mineral lines...
On November 02 2013 10:39 HelpMeGetBetter wrote: Already can't beat Terren as it is. But what is the proper response to a mass Reaper opening?
This is fairly uncommon at my level, but I've played against it once or twice. As far as I know, the best response when opening with an expand into robo is either: blink stalker all-in or immortals into some kind of 2-base bust.
I figure its something off of 1 base. Because with about 7-8 (or more) reapers on the map, its very hard to protect both mineral lines...
You should post a replay or two and we may be better able to help you then. I've faced the lots of reapers thing and honestly its as simple as trying to lose few probes and making a bunch of stalkers. With overcharge you can take the natural and then macro from there. reapers get very bad very fast in the sense that there will come a point where a direct engagement will win you the game, in the form of a 2 base timing like SC2John mentioned for example.
On October 28 2013 00:24 Protossking wrote: Wondering what you guys think is the best response to 15hatch in your natural vs Gate expand builds. I know the standard way to hold the 3rd hatch in natural is by pulling 5 or so probes with a zealot and forcing a cancel on it, this doesn't seem to work/be worth the investment vs a faster hatch in the natural. I've tried going robo and doing a slower expand with an observer but this seems to put me behind too.
I think robo is the worst follow up you could go for. Maybe a warp prism drop can work, but you don't have the economy to warp in a lot of units unless you really commit and it's not guaranteed to do a lot of damage anyway. Stargate is probably the best choice, you can get an oracle to apply pressure immediately or defend from speedlings, then switch to phoenixes/void rays. Dts can work too if you deny scouting, but as usual they are too risky. You always need to push somehow because you are behind in economy but you should have a larger army, forcing him to build units and then recalling back home is already useful.
I wouldn't recommend anything except for canceling the hatchery with probes and zealots.
you already said the robo is bad choice as well as dt's.
stargate isn't good because everything can be shut down really easily. if you go stargate and your opponent sets up a contain with like 2 queens, a few spores and a few spines then you just lose. not to mention an oracle gets shut down by 1 spore per base
I didn't say "go stargate 3 gate all in". I said that with the money you find yourself with since you can't build a nexus the best thing to do is getting 2nd gas and a stargate, but this doesn't delay your expansion more than the hatch block does. Even if you don't do damage stargate at least gives you map control and scouting.
I never said "go stargate 3 gate all in". where the fuck did you get that from? I don't know what level you play at, but I made some assumptions that low level players might not catch. if you don't pull probes and kill the the hatchery, creep spreads and you can't put your own nexus there. So you're stuck on one base with no realistic aggression options of substance and your expand is delayed so much that you won't be able to keep up with the zerg in econ given they are droning up. one stargate off 1 base does nowhere near the amount of damage you would need to do to make sure you can keep up with z if your nexus is delayed. It just doesn't work like that.
Of course, it depends on a lot of factors like when you scout it, how many units you have, did the zerg go 4 hatch before pool, did my stargate go completely unscouted till the oracle hit his main, etc... in some situations you could be fine but unless you kill the hatch really fast before creep spreads too far then it's up zerg to either win the game or not. I think at that point if z responds correctly then he wins.
my statement is correct: if you catch the hatchery block early, the best response is always to pull some probes and chrono zealots
your statement is correct if: you see the hatch block maybe 1/3-2/3 of the way through and you don't have zealots on the field, the best option is take the second gas and go stargate. but if z responds correctly, there's no way in hell you're going to win the game.
On October 28 2013 00:24 Protossking wrote: Wondering what you guys think is the best response to 15hatch in your natural vs Gate expand builds. I know the standard way to hold the 3rd hatch in natural is by pulling 5 or so probes with a zealot and forcing a cancel on it, this doesn't seem to work/be worth the investment vs a faster hatch in the natural. I've tried going robo and doing a slower expand with an observer but this seems to put me behind too.
I think robo is the worst follow up you could go for. Maybe a warp prism drop can work, but you don't have the economy to warp in a lot of units unless you really commit and it's not guaranteed to do a lot of damage anyway. Stargate is probably the best choice, you can get an oracle to apply pressure immediately or defend from speedlings, then switch to phoenixes/void rays. Dts can work too if you deny scouting, but as usual they are too risky. You always need to push somehow because you are behind in economy but you should have a larger army, forcing him to build units and then recalling back home is already useful.
IMO robo is the one of the better responses. Jangbi showed us that putting on pressure with 2 immortals and zealot sentry can be very strong and potentially game winning with good forcefields. At that stage of the game, that composition is really cost efficient against everything zerg can have at that point, and if they make way too many units you can just recall out and keep harrasing with immortal warp prism harrass to pick off queens and drones. Obviously, it's never really an ideal situation, but IMO it is better than the alternatives of SG and especially DT.
On October 28 2013 00:24 Protossking wrote: Wondering what you guys think is the best response to 15hatch in your natural vs Gate expand builds. I know the standard way to hold the 3rd hatch in natural is by pulling 5 or so probes with a zealot and forcing a cancel on it, this doesn't seem to work/be worth the investment vs a faster hatch in the natural. I've tried going robo and doing a slower expand with an observer but this seems to put me behind too.
I think robo is the worst follow up you could go for. Maybe a warp prism drop can work, but you don't have the economy to warp in a lot of units unless you really commit and it's not guaranteed to do a lot of damage anyway. Stargate is probably the best choice, you can get an oracle to apply pressure immediately or defend from speedlings, then switch to phoenixes/void rays. Dts can work too if you deny scouting, but as usual they are too risky. You always need to push somehow because you are behind in economy but you should have a larger army, forcing him to build units and then recalling back home is already useful.
I wouldn't recommend anything except for canceling the hatchery with probes and zealots.
you already said the robo is bad choice as well as dt's.
stargate isn't good because everything can be shut down really easily. if you go stargate and your opponent sets up a contain with like 2 queens, a few spores and a few spines then you just lose. not to mention an oracle gets shut down by 1 spore per base
If your stargate play is shut down very easily then either: 1. Zerg overcommited on defense, which is good for you. 2. You aren't microing correctly.
If you go stargate with no natural expansion you need to do a dick-ton of damage in order for it not to be considered "shut down". You won't be able to break a contain at your natural if you go stargate and if you do then it's the zerg's fault for letting you do it. Did you even read what was posted or just assume that we were talking about 2 base stargate with no hatch block? You really can't be serious if you think that 1 spore per base is overcommiting when you put so much money into a stargate
On October 28 2013 00:24 Protossking wrote: Wondering what you guys think is the best response to 15hatch in your natural vs Gate expand builds. I know the standard way to hold the 3rd hatch in natural is by pulling 5 or so probes with a zealot and forcing a cancel on it, this doesn't seem to work/be worth the investment vs a faster hatch in the natural. I've tried going robo and doing a slower expand with an observer but this seems to put me behind too.
I think robo is the worst follow up you could go for. Maybe a warp prism drop can work, but you don't have the economy to warp in a lot of units unless you really commit and it's not guaranteed to do a lot of damage anyway. Stargate is probably the best choice, you can get an oracle to apply pressure immediately or defend from speedlings, then switch to phoenixes/void rays. Dts can work too if you deny scouting, but as usual they are too risky. You always need to push somehow because you are behind in economy but you should have a larger army, forcing him to build units and then recalling back home is already useful.
IMO robo is the one of the better responses. Jangbi showed us that putting on pressure with 2 immortals and zealot sentry can be very strong and potentially game winning with good forcefields. At that stage of the game, that composition is really cost efficient against everything zerg can have at that point, and if they make way too many units you can just recall out and keep harrasing with immortal warp prism harrass to pick off queens and drones. Obviously, it's never really an ideal situation, but IMO it is better than the alternatives of SG and especially DT.
looking at this I agree with this as the best/safest follow up even though the position is still really bad if you let the creep spread
On November 02 2013 10:39 HelpMeGetBetter wrote: Already can't beat Terren as it is. But what is the proper response to a mass Reaper opening?
I've played this a couple of times and here's what I feel:
-Do not go templar, charge or archons, it's the worst response -When it gets to a certain point, you need colossi or you die. once you have 2 colossi the fight is a joke imo -if you go stalker(no blink) heavy into colossi, I theoretically don't know how you would defend everything. -I do think blink is the way to go, but transition to colossi when you can can -if you only have blink stalkers, terran still has map control. If you lose a lot of stalkers it just snowballs and you lose unless you have colossi. So i'd just turtle until that point -static defenses are terrible unless your army is fighting with them. you'd be surprised at how fast like 20 reapers can kill a planetary nexus -I can't say for sure what the best response is, it's pretty untested. A lot of these games either end with the reapers killing a couple stalkers and dominating everything fast or the stalkers kill some initial reapers and can't be killed after that. it's a snowball effect for either side.
On October 28 2013 00:24 Protossking wrote: Wondering what you guys think is the best response to 15hatch in your natural vs Gate expand builds. I know the standard way to hold the 3rd hatch in natural is by pulling 5 or so probes with a zealot and forcing a cancel on it, this doesn't seem to work/be worth the investment vs a faster hatch in the natural. I've tried going robo and doing a slower expand with an observer but this seems to put me behind too.
I think robo is the worst follow up you could go for. Maybe a warp prism drop can work, but you don't have the economy to warp in a lot of units unless you really commit and it's not guaranteed to do a lot of damage anyway. Stargate is probably the best choice, you can get an oracle to apply pressure immediately or defend from speedlings, then switch to phoenixes/void rays. Dts can work too if you deny scouting, but as usual they are too risky. You always need to push somehow because you are behind in economy but you should have a larger army, forcing him to build units and then recalling back home is already useful.
IMO robo is the one of the better responses. Jangbi showed us that putting on pressure with 2 immortals and zealot sentry can be very strong and potentially game winning with good forcefields. At that stage of the game, that composition is really cost efficient against everything zerg can have at that point, and if they make way too many units you can just recall out and keep harrasing with immortal warp prism harrass to pick off queens and drones. Obviously, it's never really an ideal situation, but IMO it is better than the alternatives of SG and especially DT.
looking at this I agree with this as the best/safest follow up even though the position is still really bad if you let the creep spread
If the hatchery finishes and u kill it, it's not a terrible spot although slightly uncomfortable. If they get a queen out and put down a creep tumour honestly just leave the game right there.
On November 02 2013 10:39 HelpMeGetBetter wrote: Already can't beat Terren as it is. But what is the proper response to a mass Reaper opening?
I've played this a couple of times and here's what I feel:
-Do not go templar, charge or archons, it's the worst response -When it gets to a certain point, you need colossi or you die. once you have 2 colossi the fight is a joke imo -if you go stalker(no blink) heavy into colossi, I theoretically don't know how you would defend everything. -I do think blink is the way to go, but transition to colossi when you can can -if you only have blink stalkers, terran still has map control. If you lose a lot of stalkers it just snowballs and you lose unless you have colossi. So i'd just turtle until that point -static defenses are terrible unless your army is fighting with them. you'd be surprised at how fast like 20 reapers can kill a planetary nexus -I can't say for sure what the best response is, it's pretty untested. A lot of these games either end with the reapers killing a couple stalkers and dominating everything fast or the stalkers kill some initial reapers and can't be killed after that. it's a snowball effect for either side.
Whoa, are you actually playing ppl who go 20+ reapers? When he said mass reapers i thought he was talking about the 4-6 reaper openings that i see from time to time. And these sort of openings happen before you are even deciding whether you are going charge or colossi, and happens why before you actually have colossi.
How many probes do I need if I want to do a quick 5 gate all in off a 1gate FE versus Zerg? How many gas should I use?
What about if I want to do the older 5gate immortal/sentry bust against Terran - how many probes and gas for that?
Also, does that bust still work PvT? I'm looking for an option for a quick all in build for when I want that when I'm on a 4 player map making proxy oracles harder to do.
On October 28 2013 00:24 Protossking wrote: Wondering what you guys think is the best response to 15hatch in your natural vs Gate expand builds. I know the standard way to hold the 3rd hatch in natural is by pulling 5 or so probes with a zealot and forcing a cancel on it, this doesn't seem to work/be worth the investment vs a faster hatch in the natural. I've tried going robo and doing a slower expand with an observer but this seems to put me behind too.
I think robo is the worst follow up you could go for. Maybe a warp prism drop can work, but you don't have the economy to warp in a lot of units unless you really commit and it's not guaranteed to do a lot of damage anyway. Stargate is probably the best choice, you can get an oracle to apply pressure immediately or defend from speedlings, then switch to phoenixes/void rays. Dts can work too if you deny scouting, but as usual they are too risky. You always need to push somehow because you are behind in economy but you should have a larger army, forcing him to build units and then recalling back home is already useful.
I wouldn't recommend anything except for canceling the hatchery with probes and zealots.
you already said the robo is bad choice as well as dt's.
stargate isn't good because everything can be shut down really easily. if you go stargate and your opponent sets up a contain with like 2 queens, a few spores and a few spines then you just lose. not to mention an oracle gets shut down by 1 spore per base
I didn't say "go stargate 3 gate all in". I said that with the money you find yourself with since you can't build a nexus the best thing to do is getting 2nd gas and a stargate, but this doesn't delay your expansion more than the hatch block does. Even if you don't do damage stargate at least gives you map control and scouting.
I never said "go stargate 3 gate all in". where the fuck did you get that from? I don't know what level you play at, but I made some assumptions that low level players might not catch. if you don't pull probes and kill the the hatchery, creep spreads and you can't put your own nexus there. So you're stuck on one base with no realistic aggression options of substance and your expand is delayed so much that you won't be able to keep up with the zerg in econ given they are droning up. one stargate off 1 base does nowhere near the amount of damage you would need to do to make sure you can keep up with z if your nexus is delayed. It just doesn't work like that.
Of course, it depends on a lot of factors like when you scout it, how many units you have, did the zerg go 4 hatch before pool, did my stargate go completely unscouted till the oracle hit his main, etc... in some situations you could be fine but unless you kill the hatch really fast before creep spreads too far then it's up zerg to either win the game or not. I think at that point if z responds correctly then he wins.
my statement is correct: if you catch the hatchery block early, the best response is always to pull some probes and chrono zealots
your statement is correct if: you see the hatch block maybe 1/3-2/3 of the way through and you don't have zealots on the field, the best option is take the second gas and go stargate. but if z responds correctly, there's no way in hell you're going to win the game.
I don't know if you read what I write before replying, but maybe you should start to. I'm speaking about getting a stargate WHILE killing the hatchery and saving money to build a nexus and you keep saying that letting the hatchery finish is a bad idea (which is completely obvious). I'm not gonna continue this discussion because it's getting ridiculous.
IMO robo is the one of the better responses. Jangbi showed us that putting on pressure with 2 immortals and zealot sentry can be very strong and potentially game winning with good forcefields. At that stage of the game, that composition is really cost efficient against everything zerg can have at that point, and if they make way too many units you can just recall out and keep harrasing with immortal warp prism harrass to pick off queens and drones. Obviously, it's never really an ideal situation, but IMO it is better than the alternatives of SG and especially DT.
What zerg has at that point is probably a lot of speedlings and queens, immortals aren't good against that, and while you are still on one base economy you can't get many units (sentries/zealots) to support them. Can you post a link to that game?
On November 02 2013 10:39 HelpMeGetBetter wrote: Already can't beat Terren as it is. But what is the proper response to a mass Reaper opening?
I've played this a couple of times and here's what I feel:
-Do not go templar, charge or archons, it's the worst response -When it gets to a certain point, you need colossi or you die. once you have 2 colossi the fight is a joke imo -if you go stalker(no blink) heavy into colossi, I theoretically don't know how you would defend everything. -I do think blink is the way to go, but transition to colossi when you can can -if you only have blink stalkers, terran still has map control. If you lose a lot of stalkers it just snowballs and you lose unless you have colossi. So i'd just turtle until that point -static defenses are terrible unless your army is fighting with them. you'd be surprised at how fast like 20 reapers can kill a planetary nexus -I can't say for sure what the best response is, it's pretty untested. A lot of these games either end with the reapers killing a couple stalkers and dominating everything fast or the stalkers kill some initial reapers and can't be killed after that. it's a snowball effect for either side.
Whoa, are you actually playing ppl who go 20+ reapers? When he said mass reapers i thought he was talking about the 4-6 reaper openings that i see from time to time. And these sort of openings happen before you are even deciding whether you are going charge or colossi, and happens why before you actually have colossi.
EPT
