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On November 02 2013 17:42 SuPerFlyTNT wrote: How many probes do I need if I want to do a quick 5 gate all in off a 1gate FE versus Zerg? How many gas should I use?
What about if I want to do the older 5gate immortal/sentry bust against Terran - how many probes and gas for that?
Also, does that bust still work PvT? I'm looking for an option for a quick all in build for when I want that when I'm on a 4 player map making proxy oracles harder to do.
about the robo bust: i know that there were kespa pros using it like 5 months ago iirc, so it's probably still "viable" on ladder, although probably not that consistent. the last time i saw an immortal bust in pvt was nani v lucifron season 2 challenger and it was a 1 base proxy bust with nani playing from korea lol. (@22 minutes)
It's a reasonable opening if you have the multitasking to micro your poke while also constnatly making probes at home. The con is obviously that your nexus is noticably slower, so you need to do at least some damage to come out even or ahead. If the terran figures out what you're doing and just gets up a bunker in time, your push will do nothing which sets you behind.
All in all it's a reasonable opening for ladder imo.
Proxy robo almost never works for me. Terran players usually get tanks and siege up on the high ground and it's impossible to break them at that point. Proxy void rays is just better, I feel like it's the strongest all in against terran right now.
On November 03 2013 06:33 aldochillbro wrote: just checking with you guys cuz idk if i'm an exception or not:
has anyone not been 6-9 pooled on ladder in a long time? i truly can't remember the last time this happened to me
No you're not an exception, I was thinking about the same thing few days ago . In WoL it was much more common, probably because early pools do better against FFE than against gate fe which is the standard nowadays.
On October 28 2013 00:24 Protossking wrote: Wondering what you guys think is the best response to 15hatch in your natural vs Gate expand builds. I know the standard way to hold the 3rd hatch in natural is by pulling 5 or so probes with a zealot and forcing a cancel on it, this doesn't seem to work/be worth the investment vs a faster hatch in the natural. I've tried going robo and doing a slower expand with an observer but this seems to put me behind too.
I think robo is the worst follow up you could go for. Maybe a warp prism drop can work, but you don't have the economy to warp in a lot of units unless you really commit and it's not guaranteed to do a lot of damage anyway. Stargate is probably the best choice, you can get an oracle to apply pressure immediately or defend from speedlings, then switch to phoenixes/void rays. Dts can work too if you deny scouting, but as usual they are too risky. You always need to push somehow because you are behind in economy but you should have a larger army, forcing him to build units and then recalling back home is already useful.
I wouldn't recommend anything except for canceling the hatchery with probes and zealots.
you already said the robo is bad choice as well as dt's.
stargate isn't good because everything can be shut down really easily. if you go stargate and your opponent sets up a contain with like 2 queens, a few spores and a few spines then you just lose. not to mention an oracle gets shut down by 1 spore per base
If your stargate play is shut down very easily then either: 1. Zerg overcommited on defense, which is good for you. 2. You aren't microing correctly.
If you go stargate with no natural expansion you need to do a dick-ton of damage in order for it not to be considered "shut down". You won't be able to break a contain at your natural if you go stargate and if you do then it's the zerg's fault for letting you do it. Did you even read what was posted or just assume that we were talking about 2 base stargate with no hatch block? You really can't be serious if you think that 1 spore per base is overcommiting when you put so much money into a stargate
Well, its pretty clear that you are the one that didn't read because I already have explained this earlier but w/e...
Right now you are simply saying stuff without any proof behind it. Afaik, you have provided 0 pro games to back up the fact that "ones the creep goes up, then protoss is screwed." I'm sorry but myself (and most other, I would presume) will put more trust in what top level players than just some noname on team liquid. And I don't claim to know everything either, I'm just as big of a noname as you are. That is why I try to look at good players and try to understand why they do the stuff they do.
There are three games that I can think of at top top level sc2 where zergs have proxy hatched a protoss (obviosuly, there is a chance I have probably missed some, so feel free to post any other examples). These are:
Naniwa vs Life Game 1 IEM finals: . Naniwa goes for fast oracle into a later expand.
Rain vs Soulkey game 1 WCS korea S3 ro8: http://www.gomtv.net/2013wcs3/vod/80868. Not 15 hatch like life vs naniwa but rather hatch first->proxy hatch->pool/gas. He goes for 3gate into a later expand.
Jangbi vs Losira/Kangho (they actually meet again and Losira does a proxy hatch, however this time he does it after his first hatch and pool and thus Jangbi is able to kill it with just gatewway units. Therefore its not really relevant to the discussion): http://www.gomtv.net/2013wcs2/vod/80612/?set=1. Same type of proxy as in Rain vs Soulkey. Jangbi goes fast immortals(!).
In NONE of these games, the protoss goes OMFGBBQ probe pull. In fact, the hatch gets up in all three of the games. Despit this, all games are basically even once the game normalizes, with the protoss being in slight lead in some situations even. Also if you look at alot of protoss pros when they are gateway expanding they are either scouting very late or not even at all, which wouldn't make sense if the only way to kill a proxy hatch play was to be scouting it asap and pulling probes vs it.
As for why it actually works, this is more speculation from my side but I think that alot of players underestimate hwo much the zerg fucks himself up by building an extra hatch. You can really force a shit-ton of lings/spines since your tech and army strenght isn't actually delayed at all, however the zergs defensive capabilities are.
On November 03 2013 06:50 KingAlphard wrote: Proxy robo almost never works for me. Terran players usually get tanks and siege up on the high ground and it's impossible to break them at that point. Proxy void rays is just better, I feel like it's the strongest all in against terran right now.
On November 03 2013 06:33 aldochillbro wrote: just checking with you guys cuz idk if i'm an exception or not:
has anyone not been 6-9 pooled on ladder in a long time? i truly can't remember the last time this happened to me
No you're not an exception, I was thinking about the same thing few days ago . In WoL it was much more common, probably because early pools do better against FFE than against gate fe which is the standard nowadays.
If you're just looking for quick wins vs terran on 2 player maps you can send out an immediate scout and if he doesn't wall then you proxy 2gate lol. obviously it's not a legit strategy but it's fun to do sometimes if you're looking to have fun. if they do wall off then you can just harass the supply depot building scv and go 10 pylon 10 gate and do whatever. maybe even throw down the pylon in your base before you get to his and cancel it if you're going to proxy in his base. my favorite part of this strategy is when the terran goes like "wtf why would you do that you (insert insult here)". and you respond by telling him that you've studied him after playing him a couple time on ladder. nothing makes people rage more than losing to a stupid random cheese then having the cheeser try to justify it. pure gold imo. also, i say golf instead of glhf sometimes for shits
On November 03 2013 06:33 aldochillbro wrote: just checking with you guys cuz idk if i'm an exception or not:
has anyone not been 6-9 pooled on ladder in a long time? i truly can't remember the last time this happened to me
It's become less rare since the genesis of gateway expands as such a huge part of the new meta. A safe Gateway expand will easily repel most early pools (ESPECIALLY when scouted) and most people are also quite good at holding them in a safe FFE by now, also.
Q: Against small numbers of un-upgraded Marine/Marauder, am I better off target-firing marines or marauders first with my Stalkers?
I think this should be an Early Game question, not a Mid Game question. (I was the one who originally asked this question, and it was distinctly early-game focused.)
Is there a way I can kill a player who goes for a DT expand and does no damage? My build is a 2-Gate FE into Robo, but I'm willing to change it, it seems like everyone at my level is going for DT's.
On November 04 2013 01:06 Salivanth wrote: Is there a way I can kill a player who goes for a DT expand and does no damage? My build is a 2-Gate FE into Robo, but I'm willing to change it, it seems like everyone at my level is going for DT's.
The 2-gate FE should have an earlier nexus and should still put you ahead economically. However, a good way to exploit the DT expand later, imo, is to do a followup immortal drop. Most of the time, the DT player will have 2-3 stalkers max, and you can punish that pretty hard with the immortal drop. When your robo finishes, just chronoboost 2 immortals followed by a warp prism .
EDIT: nevermind, I completely misunderstood your question. As far as the killing goes, immortal drops into a strong 2-base chargelot/immortal/archon timing is possible. Or if your immortal drop goes well, you can just drop the immortals off with your army outside the front, warp in a round of zealots in the main, then hit the natural ftw.
You can also go with pure immortal/gateway units with a bunch of sentries. Just make sure to leave an obs at home and check carefully for proxy pylons before moving out.
wouldn't you be better off getting more zealots and teching to something else with the gas than a bunch of sentries? i feel like your opponent would have archons to break the ff's and guardian shield wouldn't affect the zealots he has. obviously there's a cost to him breaking the ff's cuz he has to tank some shots so i really don't know the right answer
Well yeah but if you're allining or at least pushing really aggressively those 4/5 sentries are really helpful.
Assuming you are in a situation where you fast expanded and he went for a safe (robo before nexus) dt expo and you took zero damage from the dt's, he should have so few units when you hit that wether he has an archon or not makes no difference. If he doesn't your sentries are great, if he does his army size will be extremely small.
There's kind of a similar situation when both players expand, and one guy decides to hit an immortal timing. If the defensive player doesnt realize what's going on asap he'll die outright because you end up with 40 probes and 15 army supply to like 28 probes and 30 army supply or something like that. If one of the guys goes dt's and does no damage, his army supply will always be really low which is why that kind of push can be really strong. Again, watch out for dt counters as those can really bring the dt player back and/or win him the game.
In the SWL finals Parting rushed up to one colossus, added gates and killed HerO after his DT expand did no damage. This was after Parting opened with an oracle so I'm assuming this is even more viable if your tech choice is straight robo
On November 04 2013 02:23 Teoita wrote: Well yeah but if you're allining or at least pushing really aggressively those 4/5 sentries are really helpful.
Assuming you are in a situation where you fast expanded and he went for a safe (robo before nexus) dt expo and you took zero damage from the dt's, he should have so few units when you hit that wether he has an archon or not makes no difference. If he doesn't your sentries are great, if he does his army size will be extremely small.
There's kind of a similar situation when both players expand, and one guy decides to hit an immortal timing. If the defensive player doesnt realize what's going on asap he'll die outright because you end up with 40 probes and 15 army supply to like 28 probes and 30 army supply or something like that. If one of the guys goes dt's and does no damage, his army supply will always be really low which is why that kind of push can be really strong. Again, watch out for dt counters as those can really bring the dt player back and/or win him the game.
This is pretty spot on I'd say. One thing I'd like to add is that if you got a msc with enough energy for two time warps, then ranged units like stalkers and immortals becomes sooo much stronger, especially vs chargelot archon play which is a very common transition after DTs.
Hi guys! I have some issues dealing with mech in PvT the early drops/runby/Mines are not a problem but the lategame composition is! What do u do if the terran goes heavy thor hellbat tank? And i'd like to know if some all ins were able to punish a terran who is going mech?
On November 04 2013 17:30 IIUrsakarII wrote: Hi guys! I have some issues dealing with mech in PvT the early drops/runby/Mines are not a problem but the lategame composition is! What do u do if the terran goes heavy thor hellbat tank? And i'd like to know if some all ins were able to punish a terran who is going mech?
I like to take a third before adding extra gateways 4-6, but getting a second robo. Then I get a third robo asap (once my third is up). I only build a single forge for attack upgrades. I avoid building gateway units as much as possible before my opponent moves out, but keep in mind the best way to deal with tanks is to prevent him from sieging next to your bases.
When it comes to army composition, I like to get a lot of immortals... I mean, a LOT... and 3-4 colossi in the midgame. I keep my gateways idle while getting blink, charge, storm, and attack upgrades as resources allow. Once I take a 4th (and soon 5th), which isn't hard against a passive mech style, I add a stargate followed up by a fleet beacon (more on that later).
Sooner or later, you will want a warp prism. You could try dropping 4 zealots at the terran's main very early and then save it for flanking, but just having it out on the map for flanking is well worth the investment. You should intercept his army and force him to siege his tanks when he moves out. Warp in zealots behind his army, but make sure his rally point won't reveal it. Charge is very important here. If the terran doesn't have vikings or thors (may be the case if he decided to make ghosts), you can not only flank his army with zealots, but also drop some zealots on top of his tanks.
If you haven't had any big engagement, you might find yourself with spare gas. This is a good time to go up to 3 stargates (a good starting number), or even more if you can afford it... it's totally fine to go up to 4-6 stargates in the late game imo. 4 robos is good enough. Just remember you will need gas for high templars too, so adding extra robo is the least of your concerns. You want to get an oracle for revelation, go up to 10-12 tempests (you probably won't have that much supply left for tempests + high templar, especially if your immortal count is high... stalkers and zealots and can dumped at this point), several high templar, get cannons for vision, and a high colossus count too if possible (8 is a good number). Storm any vikings or units that try to get closer to your army.
Aside from that, I'd try to keep the terran on 4 bases while staying on 5-6 bases myself (the 6th base won't come into play until much later though, otherwise you won't have enough minerals to spend all your gas). Siege one of his bases and make cannons to defend your own bases (2-3 high templar can definitely help defend them if you have enough cannons).
Let me look for some replays, there's only so much words can illustrate...
After watching these replays, I believe I should have gotten a handful of immortals before adding any colossi. That's because I didn't have to deal with a high hellbat or marine count at all. Plus, since your goal in a midgame engagement is to flank the terran player, I think colossi aren't that important because the hellbats won't be able to shield the tanks. But I think they're still a valuable addition once you have a few immortals (4-6... dunno... at least 3 imo).
* Keep in mind, as you probably already know if you post on the forums, that John is not a terran player.
* Sorry for posting these replays without your permission John, I tried to get in touch with you before doing so, but you weren't on skype! T.T
EPT
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