EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 189
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
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Davron
United States86 Posts
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jcroisdale
United States1543 Posts
On October 29 2013 09:15 Davron wrote: What's the proper response to scouting a speedling all-in if I open Gateway first? How do I safely expand? I feel so boxed in and afraid to move out when I scout it that my expansion ends up being so late or canceled by a ling rush. Quick MSC to clear out the natural and keep an eye on his ling count. Get an extra gate and go into 2 gate sentry expand. With 4 sentries, zlot, msc you should be able to push down your ramp. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On October 29 2013 09:15 Davron wrote: What's the proper response to scouting a speedling all-in if I open Gateway first? How do I safely expand? I feel so boxed in and afraid to move out when I scout it that my expansion ends up being so late or canceled by a ling rush. It depends on what build you're doing, but most gate expands place down extra gateways at their natural right before 5:20 for a full wall off. 5:20 is when speed will finish off of 14g/14p. In order to survive, just keep chronoboosting sentries and walling off if they breach part of your wall. Can't recall a good game off the top of my head, but you should be able to deal with it. If you're still having trouble, PM me and we'll go over your build. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On October 29 2013 09:55 SC2John wrote: It depends on what build you're doing, but most gate expands place down extra gateways at their natural right before 5:20 for a full wall off. 5:20 is when speed will finish off of 14g/14p. In order to survive, just keep chronoboosting sentries and walling off if they breach part of your wall. Can't recall a good game off the top of my head, but you should be able to deal with it. If you're still having trouble, PM me and we'll go over your build. This. No need to sentry expand against gas openings if you have a tight build and good execution imo. | ||
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bertu
Brazil871 Posts
On October 29 2013 03:13 vhapter wrote: I've been having trouble engaging roach hydra cost efficiently with zealot ht archon voidray. I generally have a flood of minerals, but not that much gas for high templars AND archons. Not sure that even matters though. Zerg players can hit my third, or wall, or both, and kite my army indefinitely. There's a point in the game where zealots die at the blink of an eye, leaving my voidrays completely exposed to a ton hydras that are very likely to survive, since my zealots and voidrays have to take care of his front line first. In spite of having played this strategy almost exclusively in the past few months, I really don't know what the ideal way of engaging this army composition is. Here's a replay to illustrate things better, in case my description above wasn't clear enough. http://drop.sc/363558 In the replay, you had 1 sentry and 3 storms while chasing his army around (your other spellcasters were separated from the army). Then you got stuck near the rocks. This was never going to work. You have to make your spells count if you are zealot and void ray heavy. Zealots + spells are better when you are trying to corner him, not the other way around. As you said, he can keep baiting your spells and retreating to an open field without taking damage. Since you were playing passive (not trying to hit a chargelot storm timing), you could be a bit more cannon heavy as a mineral dump. Then you could make his army hurt with those pokes and be able punish over-commitment with forcefields or storm. I'd recommend downloading the old rsvp replay pack and take note in army positioning and sim city, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=408248 | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
By the way, thanks for the response. | ||
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bertu
Brazil871 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + game 1 there is also the whirlwind games at DH bucharest But if you are doing the old 3 stargate build, you are not going to have a lot of gas for anything else, which means limited storms and forcefields. Without a good number (and usage) of spells, you can't be out on the map against Roach/Hydra. If you are just defending and planning on taking a fourth, then more cannons > more zealots, even though you still need both. You don't have to spam, but you should aim for 3-4 cannons in outer bases or a distant third, specially if you are not keeping tabs in how strong the opponent army is (with good scouting, you can cut on static defense). I remember parting, bisu and creator being a bit more cannon heavy, but those were old games when the 3 sg build was more common. On the other hand, Naniwa wouldn't get extra cannons, he would invest in zealots and sentries and be more on the map with his void rays, but he would get storm a lot later, in favor of more sentries earlier (forcefields are very good against roach/hydra in small numbers, obviously). If you want to study engagements, you should watch his older games (S2 WCS EU). He doesn't use this style anymore though. | ||
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whatami
46 Posts
This kind of style is suuuuper greedy, not for the faint of heart, and mostly relies on the zerg going for economic or tech greed behind his denying of your economy(which most will). This is true because as soon as his hatch goes down you are going to try to take your natural as well, so you are looking at a 8:00 ish 3rd base assuming he doesn't creep tumor you. or 9ish if he does. This style works so well because it is so against the meta. The zerg will be frantically trying to overlord scout for what type of one base all in you're doing, throwing up spines and spores, and maybe even roach/ling to defend it, while you are happily macroing, playing passive, and going in to the midgame. Definitely a meta play, but a strong one, for those who don't like having to pull probes. Only real disad is that it auto loses to the speedling all in follow up. That follow up is extremely rare, but it's an important flaw to be aware of if attempting this response. | ||
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AKspartan
United States126 Posts
On October 25 2013 23:30 Mertz wrote: I am not quite sure if I understand protoss macro very much. Currently I have been going down the robo tech path and insure that I always have something producing from the robo and then spend all my extra money on warp ins when I get the chance. I notice that when I always am on top of warp-ins, I tend to have too many gateway units in my army and near the end game, I tend to have to bleed them out to make room for more tech units in my supply. Should I not be warping in units as much as I am? I also have trouble dealing with terran drops. If I did not warp in units right as the cool down is off would that give me more opportunities to deal with drops by warping in zealots? I come from playing terran where, once you build a production building, you almost never pause it's production of units. With the MSC I notice protoss relay on that for protection rather than some initial gateway units, so it throws me off. I just am having a hard time understanding the macro mechanics of Protoss I guess. A constantly-producing robo isn't always best. Until you get your bay, the only fighting unit you can make there is the immortal, which should only be produced en masse to counter lots of marauders/tanks/thors, roaches/ultras, or stalker/colo. Observers are good, a warp prism can be good in the right hands, but you don't want to overmake them. It's good to get them early to ensure your robo is free later on when you can make colossus, but only if you don't need to defend some kind of timing (in which case you should be focusing on your army strength). You have to always have an idea of what army composition your opponent has (and what they may have later in the game) and build your way towards whatever army composition will counter that best. Trying to beat a good opponent with mass gateway without some kind of honed timing attack is going to be very hard. The more money you spend on low tech protoss units, the longer it takes to get to a good number of high tech protoss units.You have to make just enough to not die while teching up. High gateway production is safe early and mid game but not a viable long term strategy unless your opponent is bad at macro. | ||
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AKspartan
United States126 Posts
On October 28 2013 00:24 Protossking wrote: Wondering what you guys think is the best response to 15hatch in your natural vs Gate expand builds. I know the standard way to hold the 3rd hatch in natural is by pulling 5 or so probes with a zealot and forcing a cancel on it, this doesn't seem to work/be worth the investment vs a faster hatch in the natural. I've tried going robo and doing a slower expand with an observer but this seems to put me behind too. This is one of the reasons I prefer FFE, it's very easy to deny with two cannons, timing the second one so it finishes after the hatch does and can be canceled if the hatch is canceled. | ||
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HelpMeGetBetter
United States764 Posts
-Zerg opened with 2 quick expo's. I went Gateway expand, so i could cannon rush either. -I tried for a 8 gateway timing which never happened because the zerg went for ling baneling, he had too many units. so I warped in back at my base and went for colossus. -We traded armies before I got the feeling of a Muta switch coming -he did go Mutas, eventually we ended up in a base trade situation, that I lost... How could I have handled this better? | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On October 31 2013 00:39 HelpMeGetBetter wrote: recently had this type of game vs Zerg on Bel'Shir Vestige: -Zerg opened with 2 quick expo's. I went Gateway expand, so i could cannon rush either. -I tried for a 8 gateway timing which never happened because the zerg went for ling baneling, he had too many units. so I warped in back at my base and went for colossus. -We traded armies before I got the feeling of a Muta switch coming -he did go Mutas, eventually we ended up in a base trade situation, that I lost... How could I have handled this better? Whenever you do a warpgate timing and do no damage, you're really far behind. That said, perhaps you could attempt to iron out that attack and do something like an early 4-gate, an oracle/3-gate, or a robo build (i.e. soultrain, mantrain). If you're ever in a situation where you feel like you're not going to do damage with an early timing, you need to transition to robo/forge as soon as possible (and usually blink/colossus). I suggest you learn this build: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=430061 With good execution and crisp timings, you should be able to beat players all the way up to masters  . | ||
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Lazermonkey
Sweden2176 Posts
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aldochillbro
187 Posts
my instinct tells me that I need to get a decent amount of units and expand at the 9-10 minute mark but this doesn't seem to be optimal, as it gets shut down and their econ/units become too much for me. I was wondering if the best response to this would be to go heavy tech off 2base: 2 forges, colossi, and charge(or blink, but lack of medivacs makes me think that i should go the upgrade that helps engagements), and then take a third behind it while pressuring their third with zealots. Does this sound like a good idea? i haven't been playing as much and haven't hit anyone in the last week using this style ever since I thought of the idea above. edit: SC2john, I try to answer people's questions sometimes when I see them and know the answer so I'm not just "using" this thread without giving back, but you're on this shit hard mang. much appreciated | ||
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HelpMeGetBetter
United States764 Posts
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On October 31 2013 23:28 HelpMeGetBetter wrote: Why is the natural on Polar Night such a bitch to wall off? I don't have any problem in walling off (1 hex hole) with 2 3x3 buildings and a pylon. Do you use the build grid? | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On October 28 2013 00:24 Protossking wrote: Wondering what you guys think is the best response to 15hatch in your natural vs Gate expand builds. I know the standard way to hold the 3rd hatch in natural is by pulling 5 or so probes with a zealot and forcing a cancel on it, this doesn't seem to work/be worth the investment vs a faster hatch in the natural. I've tried going robo and doing a slower expand with an observer but this seems to put me behind too. I think robo is the worst follow up you could go for. Maybe a warp prism drop can work, but you don't have the economy to warp in a lot of units unless you really commit and it's not guaranteed to do a lot of damage anyway. Stargate is probably the best choice, you can get an oracle to apply pressure immediately or defend from speedlings, then switch to phoenixes/void rays. Dts can work too if you deny scouting, but as usual they are too risky. You always need to push somehow because you are behind in economy but you should have a larger army, forcing him to build units and then recalling back home is already useful. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On October 31 2013 23:28 HelpMeGetBetter wrote: Why is the natural on Polar Night such a bitch to wall off? It isn't, it's a standard wall, even easier than Daybreak. There's a screenshot in the OP. | ||
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aldochillbro
187 Posts
On November 01 2013 01:09 KingAlphard wrote: I think robo is the worst follow up you could go for. Maybe a warp prism drop can work, but you don't have the economy to warp in a lot of units unless you really commit and it's not guaranteed to do a lot of damage anyway. Stargate is probably the best choice, you can get an oracle to apply pressure immediately or defend from speedlings, then switch to phoenixes/void rays. Dts can work too if you deny scouting, but as usual they are too risky. You always need to push somehow because you are behind in economy but you should have a larger army, forcing him to build units and then recalling back home is already useful. I wouldn't recommend anything except for canceling the hatchery with probes and zealots. you already said the robo is bad choice as well as dt's. stargate isn't good because everything can be shut down really easily. if you go stargate and your opponent sets up a contain with like 2 queens, a few spores and a few spines then you just lose. not to mention an oracle gets shut down by 1 spore per base | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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