EPTIf you hate playing against Muta I would suggest you get more aggressive and force him to make units that can actually fight you head to head instead.
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
If you hate playing against Muta I would suggest you get more aggressive and force him to make units that can actually fight you head to head instead. | ||
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shivver
United States232 Posts
I'm completely new to cannon rushing as I've stated before being a masters terran in wol I'm still learning the small things with this sick race. | ||
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shivver
United States232 Posts
On December 21 2013 00:10 DinoMight wrote: I've been opening robo and doing strong 9-10 minute attacks to kind of force Zerg not to go Muta. Lately I've been finding Phoenix openings way too passive... Zerg just keeps droning up freely until they have resources to switch into 40 Muta. At which point it doesn't really matter if you have 4 Phoenixes... If you hate playing against Muta I would suggest you get more aggressive and force him to make units that can actually fight you head to head instead. This is pretty much how I feel I got a prism that rolls out around the 8.5 minute mark or something like that that drops 4 zlots in his main and warps in another 4 at his third. Sometimes it's a waste of minerals but even then I'm just buying time to get those collosi and voids out really any damage is a bonus | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On December 21 2013 00:11 shivver wrote: btw, teoita or vhapter or some other higher level toss wouldn't mind sharing some replays of them doing cannon rushes would you? I'm completely new to cannon rushing as I've stated before being a masters terran in wol I'm still learning the small things with this sick race. Watch sOs. He is like, the Michael Jordan of cannon rushing. Not just the rush itself but the follow up build. sOs vs. Jaedong on Derelict Watcher from WCS grand finals is a good one. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On December 21 2013 00:13 shivver wrote: This is pretty much how I feel I got a prism that rolls out around the 8.5 minute mark or something like that that drops 4 zlots in his main and warps in another 4 at his third. Sometimes it's a waste of minerals but even then I'm just buying time to get those collosi and voids out really any damage is a bonus I've been doing the same exact thing actually... opening with a fast warp prism and 4 gate +1. Dropping Zealots in his mineral lines. Usually if the Zerg doesn't see proxy pylons they just drone up so it hits them by surprise right as they're starting to make roaches. Also, behind the 4 dropped Z and 4 warped in Z that I do, I do a round of sentries and 2 Immortals before expanding and adding a twilight and Colossus Den. If he goes Hydras I go Colo. If he tries to go Muta I'll just add like 6 gates and get blink and allin again off 3 bases. | ||
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shivver
United States232 Posts
On December 21 2013 00:22 DinoMight wrote: I've been doing the same exact thing actually... opening with a fast warp prism and 4 gate +1. Dropping Zealots in his mineral lines. Usually if the Zerg doesn't see proxy pylons they just drone up so it hits them by surprise right as they're starting to make roaches. Also, behind the 4 dropped Z and 4 warped in Z that I do, I do a round of sentries and 2 Immortals before expanding and adding a twilight and Colossus Den. If he goes Hydras I go Colo. If he tries to go Muta I'll just add like 6 gates and get blink and allin again off 3 bases. lol interesting I was wondering if anyone else was getting a prism instead of immortals. It hits at a pretty timing sometimes, sometimes you pretty much outright win the game with the damage that can get done. My above post goes with this though, Idk how you guys make blink stalkers work vs mutas. I imagine I can make it work if I really put some effort in but phoenix just seems to much easier. | ||
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aldochillbro
187 Posts
is anyone here bringing cannons into their attacks pvp or pvz to fall back on? for pvz I guess it's more to fall back on and pvp I put it outside photon overcharge ranged when I have less zealots and more ranged units(colossus, stalker, sentry based). I'm just unsure if it's worth it, I'm talking 2-3 cannons in the midgame btw | ||
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city42
1656 Posts
On December 21 2013 00:37 shivver wrote: lol interesting I was wondering if anyone else was getting a prism instead of immortals. It hits at a pretty timing sometimes, sometimes you pretty much outright win the game with the damage that can get done. My above post goes with this though, Idk how you guys make blink stalkers work vs mutas. I imagine I can make it work if I really put some effort in but phoenix just seems to much easier. You can't beat mutas with blink stalkers under normal circumstances. The only effective way to counter them is with ranged phoenixes. | ||
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shivver
United States232 Posts
On December 21 2013 01:34 aldochillbro wrote: ya it seems like mutas are stronger in a straight up fight against stalkers because they can pick one or two off and leave which is messed up. is anyone here bringing cannons into their attacks pvp or pvz to fall back on? for pvz I guess it's more to fall back on and pvp I put it outside photon overcharge ranged when I have less zealots and more ranged units(colossus, stalker, sentry based). I'm just unsure if it's worth it, I'm talking 2-3 cannons in the midgame btw do you mean like cannons for a forward pylon? I don't use them in pvp at all but in pvz I'll cannon up my third with 3-4 to help hold 3 base all ins and obviously my 4th and 5th bases I load them the fuk up with cannons | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On December 21 2013 00:11 shivver wrote: btw, teoita or vhapter or some other higher level toss wouldn't mind sharing some replays of them doing cannon rushes would you? I'm completely new to cannon rushing as I've stated before being a masters terran in wol I'm still learning the small things with this sick race. I can't cannon rush for shit sorry  On December 21 2013 00:10 DinoMight wrote: I've been opening robo and doing strong 9-10 minute attacks to kind of force Zerg not to go Muta. Lately I've been finding Phoenix openings way too passive... Zerg just keeps droning up freely until they have resources to switch into 40 Muta. At which point it doesn't really matter if you have 4 Phoenixes... If you hate playing against Muta I would suggest you get more aggressive and force him to make units that can actually fight you head to head instead. Opening robo leaves you even weaker to mutas. Sure you might hit a timing and kill him if he's dumb and tries to just rush for them, but a z can switch into them at pretty much any time which is why having stargate tech already on the map is the only way to be somewhat ready. If you aren't prepared, your only choice is to try a basetrade, which i feel is usually in the z's player favour because mutas are so mobile. On December 21 2013 01:46 city42 wrote: You can't beat mutas with blink stalkers under normal circumstances. The only effective way to counter them is with ranged phoenixes. Pretty much. If you have a standard ground army and no "easy" access to stargate (as in, phoenixes already in the air and the econ to make more and get range) your best bet is a basetrade. | ||
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playa
United States1284 Posts
On December 21 2013 01:34 aldochillbro wrote: ya it seems like mutas are stronger in a straight up fight against stalkers because they can pick one or two off and leave which is messed up. is anyone here bringing cannons into their attacks pvp or pvz to fall back on? for pvz I guess it's more to fall back on and pvp I put it outside photon overcharge ranged when I have less zealots and more ranged units(colossus, stalker, sentry based). I'm just unsure if it's worth it, I'm talking 2-3 cannons in the midgame btw I've been messing around with this recently. Since I really like making probes and expanding, my army supply is never going to be that amazing, relative to my opponent, whether I'm maxed or not. Thus, to try to offset this disadvantage in battles, I like to make cannons with my pushes, once I have a fourth up. I feel it's worth it, but it's just very situational. In p vs z, sometimes it's clear that if you can just take down this one expansion, the game will be over or maybe you don't have the energy for recall if things go bad/look dicey. I'd rather make cannons in these situations than have extra gateways to reinforce with zealots, that's for sure (since "useful units" are limited by your gas). | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On December 21 2013 02:37 Teoita wrote: Opening robo leaves you even weaker to mutas. Sure you might hit a timing and kill him if he's dumb and tries to just rush for them, but a z can switch into them at pretty much any time which is why having stargate tech already on the map is the only way to be somewhat ready. If you aren't prepared, your only choice is to try a basetrade, which i feel is usually in the z's player favour because mutas are so mobile. I feel like if you macro to 3 bases off Robo tech and let him get a critical mass of Muta out, this is certainly true. But if you attack around 9-10 minutes, it's too early for him to have critical mass of Muta, he'll have to either make something else or his Muta will be forced to fight you and die and therefore he won't ever reach the Muta flock size he wants. If you're too passive robo first style you WILL die to Muta though. It's almost guaranteed. Zergs love making them. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
If you are going to go robo you can't just push once, you need to attack almost CONSTANTLY if you want to catch mutas (or accept that youwill end up in a base trade). A good example of this is nony's builds when he does go 3base robo, but then tries to hit a super fast 3base timing with blink/immortal. When he plays more passive his only response to muta is to baserace, which i personally HATE as a situation in general. Up to each player of course. Nony's level of play might not be the highest anymore, but i feel like it's a good enough example for this situation. | ||
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
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city42
1656 Posts
On December 21 2013 04:52 DinoMight wrote: I feel like if you macro to 3 bases off Robo tech and let him get a critical mass of Muta out, this is certainly true. But if you attack around 9-10 minutes, it's too early for him to have critical mass of Muta, he'll have to either make something else or his Muta will be forced to fight you and die and therefore he won't ever reach the Muta flock size he wants. If you're too passive robo first style you WILL die to Muta though. It's almost guaranteed. Zergs love making them. Is this 9-10 minute attack done on 2 bases? If so, that sounds like a standard all-in and no decent zergs will start a spire in the first place. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On December 21 2013 05:17 Teoita wrote: Ok, assume you do a 9/10 minute push and trade efficiently or even fairly well. You back off, tech up to your aoe...and he still has all the time in the world to go muta against which you don't have a stargate. If you are going to go robo you can't just push once, you need to attack almost CONSTANTLY if you want to catch mutas (or accept that youwill end up in a base trade). A good example of this is nony's builds when he does go 3base robo, but then tries to hit a super fast 3base timing with blink/immortal. When he plays more passive his only response to muta is to baserace, which i personally HATE as a situation in general. Up to each player of course. Nony's level of play might not be the highest anymore, but i feel like it's a good enough example for this situation. Oh yeah. I try to play almost like TvZ where it's nonstop attacking and prevent the Z from teching. I'll attack, do some damage, recall out as soon as my positioning is compromised, then gather up some more units and go again. Warp Prism harass, etc. He can still go Muta, but what this style does is you will see the Muta trickle out, rather than allowing him to just make 40 at once. IMO surprise Muta = instant death in most cases. But if you see him going Muta you have enough time to respond. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On December 21 2013 05:26 Teoita wrote: Eh yes and no. As mentioned, scouting "surprise" mutas is a pain in the ass becuase some zergs make them at absolutely random times. You can kinda get cues, but it's hard to invest hundreds of gas in stargate tech when you have none whatsoever you know? I know it's not very efficient, but when I get to 3 base, I usually throw down 2 Stargates JUST BECAUSE. I hate dying to Muta so much... I'd rather build them and not need them than need them and not have them. Anywhere below grand master I feel like 300/300 on 3 base economy is not that much to pay for Muta insurance. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On December 21 2013 06:48 DinoMight wrote: Oh yeah. I try to play almost like TvZ where it's nonstop attacking and prevent the Z from teching. I'll attack, do some damage, recall out as soon as my positioning is compromised, then gather up some more units and go again. Warp Prism harass, etc. He can still go Muta, but what this style does is you will see the Muta trickle out, rather than allowing him to just make 40 at once. IMO surprise Muta = instant death in most cases. But if you see him going Muta you have enough time to respond. Yeah that's fine, i play similarly sometimes. I found that if he gets up a significant number of hydras or a few swarm hosts your pushes stop being effective because you just need tech to deal with that. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On December 21 2013 08:09 Teoita wrote: Yeah that's fine, i play similarly sometimes. I found that if he gets up a significant number of hydras or a few swarm hosts your pushes stop being effective because you just need tech to deal with that. One thing I've noticed is that zerg will generally ALWAYS do the muta switch off the back of either 1) roach/hydra where they can snipe your phoenixes or 2) after trading a big ultra-based ground army. Of course, it's always possible for it to happen at random times, but the most obvious times are still when the zerg player has forced you to invest too much into robo tech. | ||
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