EPTI would like to know a definite answer, no "i think" please. Thank you in advance.
The HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 185
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qapuk
United States71 Posts
I would like to know a definite answer, no "i think" please. Thank you in advance. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On October 18 2013 06:35 qapuk wrote: Does charge on zealots make a big difference in combating speedlings? Is it worth researching charge against heavier speedlings style play like mutaling or utraling? I would like to know a definite answer, no "i think" please. Thank you in advance. Charge is more used for harass than for direct engagements with heavy zergling play. Usually in combat with the lings, you want your zealots to stay with the rest of your units to make it harder for them to be surrounded or for the rest of your units to be surrounded. Charge does increase the movement speed of zealots a little bit and makes zealot harass and runby attempts much stronger though. Charge in PvZ in terms of combat is best against naked hydralisks or for catching infestors or something, in actual fights heavy zealots is usually not very good in PvZ. In general in PvZ, it's always worth getting charge unless you are doing a 2 base timing or you absolutely cannot spare the gas. Against Muta-Ling or Ling-Ultra, I'd say blink is more of a priority than charge. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On October 18 2013 06:35 qapuk wrote: Does charge on zealots make a big difference in combating speedlings? Is it worth researching charge against heavier speedlings style play like mutaling or utraling? I would like to know a definite answer, no "i think" please. Thank you in advance. It's actually somewhat of a nuisance where your zealots will break a tight formation and charge out into lings, presenting more surface area as they lose their cohesion. If he backs off and you want to chase, your chargelots aren't catching up to speedlings anyways. It offers no real advantage against speedlings (and in 90% of cases a disadvantage), but it makes zealots much better for run-bys and harass. | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13430 Posts
On October 18 2013 10:20 rd wrote: It's actually somewhat of a nuisance where your zealots will break a tight formation and charge out into lings, presenting more surface area as they lose their cohesion. If he backs off and you want to chase, your chargelots aren't catching up to speedlings anyways. It offers no real advantage against speedlings (and in 90% of cases a disadvantage), but it makes zealots much better for run-bys and harass. you could always turn off charge autocast when you are keeping them in your main army and leaving it autocast for the harassing zealots. You get the passive move speed upgrade without using the charge ability and they keep cohesion as a result. Alt - whatever button charge is and its off. | ||
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Nowado
Poland8 Posts
I want to open with 1gate expo, but slightly delayd, so I can get aggresive. 3 zealots with mcr cancelling 3rd or forcing some extra units from zerg. Where do I place gateway? I can place it at the main ramp, creating a wall, but then zerg will see chrono going to gateway. Or I can place it behind my mineral line, but my expo, as well as my natural wall is delayed, so I think zerg could easily counter with any lings. | ||
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Salivanth
Australia1071 Posts
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Nowado
Poland8 Posts
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ETisME
12902 Posts
I am an ex diamond toss who basically took a huge break and recently trying to ladder and made it to gold with 70% win rate facing ex plats and diamonds. I have been messing around with openings and this one I feel is extremely powerful for pvt. The opening is: 12 gate with 14 gas then follow up with a zealot after the cyber core finishes, then boost out stalker and mothership core and go for a pressure while expanding behind it. By building another stalker, I can hold off any reaper harass. The amount of pressure usually net me either some marines and scv kills or just some poking, maybe damage the terran a little etc. Anyone has experience with this opening as well? I think this was used earlier in beta but maybe it was just me though. Should I just do the gateway expand without unit instead? Also I use it from time to time in PvZ and it can force a lot of lings sometimes | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On October 20 2013 00:58 ETisME wrote: Can someone give me some opinion on this opening? I am an ex diamond toss who basically took a huge break and recently trying to ladder and made it to gold with 70% win rate facing ex plats and diamonds. I have been messing around with openings and this one I feel is extremely powerful for pvt. The opening is: 12 gate with 14 gas then follow up with a zealot after the cyber core finishes, then boost out stalker and mothership core and go for a pressure while expanding behind it. By building another stalker, I can hold off any reaper harass. The amount of pressure usually net me either some marines and scv kills or just some poking, maybe damage the terran a little etc. Anyone has experience with this opening as well? I think this was used earlier in beta but maybe it was just me though. Should I just do the gateway expand without unit instead? Also I use it from time to time in PvZ and it can force a lot of lings sometimes You can do the same thing with a normal 13-gate and still do just fine. The key is to send the zealot immediately to your opponent's base to prevent a bunker from going down (this works best on maps like Bel'Shir or Akilon where the zealot won't cross paths with a reaper). All in all, I like this opening too because it allows you to get a good scout of your opponent, forces him to build a bunker, and gives you tons of map control. Oh, important sidenote: with this build you can scout everything the terran has with the MSC at around 5:30, so there's no need to probe scout! In PvZ, go zealot/zealot/stalker. That particular formation is especially good at killing off early lings  .On October 18 2013 18:58 Nowado wrote: PvZ I want to open with 1gate expo, but slightly delayd, so I can get aggresive. 3 zealots with mcr cancelling 3rd or forcing some extra units from zerg. Where do I place gateway? I can place it at the main ramp, creating a wall, but then zerg will see chrono going to gateway. Or I can place it behind my mineral line, but my expo, as well as my natural wall is delayed, so I think zerg could easily counter with any lings. If you want to go for a zealot pressure like that, you should place your gateway and cyber core at your main ramp, leaving one hex open. If you scout zerglings running past or trying to counterattack, you can use a probe/zealot to block the entrance or just build a pylon to finish the wall off. Obviously your natural wall will be a little later (after 6:30) so you should do this kind of build on maps with smaller chokes such as Yeonsu or Frost. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On October 20 2013 00:58 ETisME wrote: Can someone give me some opinion on this opening? I am an ex diamond toss who basically took a huge break and recently trying to ladder and made it to gold with 70% win rate facing ex plats and diamonds. I have been messing around with openings and this one I feel is extremely powerful for pvt. The opening is: 12 gate with 14 gas then follow up with a zealot after the cyber core finishes, then boost out stalker and mothership core and go for a pressure while expanding behind it. By building another stalker, I can hold off any reaper harass. The amount of pressure usually net me either some marines and scv kills or just some poking, maybe damage the terran a little etc. Anyone has experience with this opening as well? I think this was used earlier in beta but maybe it was just me though. Should I just do the gateway expand without unit instead? Also I use it from time to time in PvZ and it can force a lot of lings sometimes I don't have experience with this build, but pretty much everybody at high level has been going msc expand. It's a really reliable build, unlike the build you mentioned which may catch your opponent offguard. Even if you like to do this pressure build, you should practice msc expanding at one point imo. | ||
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
On October 20 2013 07:09 vhapter wrote: I don't have experience with this build, but pretty much everybody at high level has been going msc expand. It's a really reliable build, unlike the build you mentioned which may catch your opponent offguard. Even if you like to do this pressure build, you should practice msc expanding at one point imo. Idk, i like this build because it really isn't too risky at all. Obviously ur nexus is a little more delayed than a msc expand, but it's still a 1gate FE with a reasonable timed nexus and has potential to do a lot of damage and you always get perfect scouting. I would agree that practicing msc expanding is a good idea too but this build is certainly viable to do numerous times in a BoX series (Trap's games were a good example of this). But definitely go 13 gate, you can get a similar amount of damage done and it's more economic. | ||
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-YoricK-
United States477 Posts
On October 20 2013 00:58 ETisME wrote: Can someone give me some opinion on this opening? I am an ex diamond toss who basically took a huge break and recently trying to ladder and made it to gold with 70% win rate facing ex plats and diamonds. I have been messing around with openings and this one I feel is extremely powerful for pvt. The opening is: 12 gate with 14 gas then follow up with a zealot after the cyber core finishes, then boost out stalker and mothership core and go for a pressure while expanding behind it. By building another stalker, I can hold off any reaper harass. The amount of pressure usually net me either some marines and scv kills or just some poking, maybe damage the terran a little etc. Anyone has experience with this opening as well? I think this was used earlier in beta but maybe it was just me though. Should I just do the gateway expand without unit instead? Also I use it from time to time in PvZ and it can force a lot of lings sometimes I really like the 13 gate version of this too, and have been doing it on basically every 2 player map in PvT. The only problem is that the build is actually really susceptible to certain cheeses, as you have no defense at home. Proxy factory play/reapers or multiple reapers are really hard to deal with. Like I have had games where I reach the enemy base and see nothing at the natural and a wall at the ramp. And then 4 hellions run into your base and its GG. So overall, I think the quicker MSC expo is just safer and more reliable sadly  | ||
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HelpMeGetBetter
United States766 Posts
On October 16 2013 19:25 vhapter wrote: It would be easier to help if you posted a replay. I could be wrong, but most protosses in diamond seem to have pretty iffy builds. That comes from someone who's currently in diamond (keep in mind that I don't play enough games to get promoted either though). They kind of know what to build, but not when. I pay a lot of attention to detail, so it sholdn't be too difficult to help you deal with most standard builds. Feel free to add me for practice and discussing builds - vhapter #721. http://drop.sc/362629 I don't even know what to say.... | ||
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mizU
United States12125 Posts
On October 20 2013 09:14 HelpMeGetBetter wrote: http://drop.sc/362629 I don't even know what to say.... Uhhhhh. You lost your nexus to a bunker. (this should never happen with an msc, should've focused the mule down then just kited the bunker with stalker stalker msc) And then you tried to do a gateway bust while your nexus was coming up. (either all-in or sit at home and tech cuz you're missing 400 minerals) And you also stopped making probes for a really long time while trying to get your colossus tech up. And it seemed like you just didn't realize he was going mech after the first tank and didn't make enough immortals or react properly to it. It was a rough game since you were behind from the opener, but you can still recover from it. You could've scouted a lot better with hallucinated phoenixes as well, that would've helped you a ton. | ||
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HelpMeGetBetter
United States766 Posts
On October 20 2013 09:53 mizU wrote: Uhhhhh. You lost your nexus to a bunker. (this should never happen with an msc, should've focused the mule down then just kited the bunker with stalker stalker msc) And then you tried to do a gateway bust while your nexus was coming up. (either all-in or sit at home and tech cuz you're missing 400 minerals) And you also stopped making probes for a really long time while trying to get your colossus tech up. And it seemed like you just didn't realize he was going mech after the first tank and didn't make enough immortals or react properly to it. It was a rough game since you were behind from the opener, but you can still recover from it. You could've scouted a lot better with hallucinated phoenixes as well, that would've helped you a ton. Thanks. But this is just the tip of the iceberg as to how lost I am in PvT.... | ||
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HelpMeGetBetter
United States766 Posts
On October 20 2013 10:00 HelpMeGetBetter wrote: Thanks. But this is just the tip of the iceberg as to how lost I am in PvT.... http://drop.sc/362635 I honestly have no idea what to do.... | ||
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HelpMeGetBetter
United States766 Posts
I don't understand. PvT used to be my best matchup, and seemingly overnight all my builds, openers, strategies, everything became wrong. I don't get it. I used to know what to look for and how to respond during a game, but now I just don't know. The more I try to figure this out the more confused I get. I don't know what other people are saying but is there some serious imbalance in PvT I don't know about? | ||
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tar
Germany991 Posts
First, you need to get another build going. this 1 gate fe into 5 gate attack does nothing for you but delay your tech. Both of the last replays should have been over at the 11 minute mark (on whirlwind it wasn t because the Terran was simply bad at macro and on frost the Terran just played out his advantage in the macro game). Also, you probably die to any kind of gas first opener Terran has due to lack of detection. Second, you need to work on your fundamentals: -you need more than 50 probes on 3 bases. going up to 66 is standard when taking a 4th you can go in the 70 s to maximize your gas income. albeit, since your spending is sub par, that doesn t matter too much atm. - you need to engage more decisively. your are running around too much with ur units without doing anything and consequently losing units for nothing (e.g. losing colossi to vikings) - you are not using upgrade timings when you hit 2/2 or 3/3 and you know your opponent is behind on upgrades you should go for an attack. what happened on whirlwind was that even so you had a supply lead and an upgrade lead you waited for the terran to max out and catch up in upgrades before attacking in the worst possible spot at his 3rd thus throwing the game away There is a lot more to do but I really think you will achieve most if you change your build. I don't see any advantage of doing that 5 gate apart from hoping to catch a Terran utterly off guard. However, since reaper openers are so common these days, this should not happen. moreover, the 5 gate is not committed enough to even kill an underprepared Terran yet leaving you behind on tech and eco. your double forge colossi taking a 3rd follow up is so greedy, it should get you killed every time the Terran did not suffer terrible terrible damage from your attack. | ||
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bertu
Brazil871 Posts
On October 20 2013 14:19 HelpMeGetBetter wrote: http://drop.sc/362648 I don't understand. PvT used to be my best matchup, and seemingly overnight all my builds, openers, strategies, everything became wrong. I don't get it. I used to know what to look for and how to respond during a game, but now I just don't know. The more I try to figure this out the more confused I get. I don't know what other people are saying but is there some serious imbalance in PvT I don't know about? I watched the last two replays. You are making a blind 5-gate push with a 10-scout and no tech, which already is a iffy build, but you executed badly (it hit waaaay too late). I am not sure what you expected to happen after that, but balance never played a role. You already were too behind. Take any standard opening (like this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=426047) and keep practicing, keep re-reading the guide whenever you lose to something you understand, and compare your build timings. If you still don`t know what you did wrong after that, feel free to share more replays. Or at least optimize your 5-gate, I mean, you could see that your warpgate research finished 20s before your extra gates. Of course you are going to lose those games. | ||
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Minus151
United States16 Posts
Anyway, can someone explain HoTS PvP to me? I hated the 4gate wars in WoL but I've realized that now that 4gate is no longer king, I never learned anything else for PvP lol. I read the front page of this thread but the FAQ doesn't have any build orders. Just looking for something concrete to practice. | ||
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