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I kinda want to share what I think about PvMuta. The question originally was about 2-base muta, a strat that is really really uncommon so I can't give you that a super precise on that strat exactly but as a more general response (3-base muta and x-base mass muta switches) I don't think you need to go phoenix actually.
The reason people think phoenix is a must is that its basically the only way to play a turtly game vs mutas nowadays. In WoL you could actually play defensive vs muta with stalker and later on HT/cannon support. That doesn't really work anymore because mutas are just so much better at harassing now. They are, however, still pretty shitty in straight up engagements. No, stalker sentry doesn't rape muta like phoenix does but they still trade slightly cost efficient.
Thing with stalker sentry tho, is that you HAVE to be active and agressive vs his mutas because you will lose if you end up getting pinned in your base longer than just a few minutes. Get agressive, poke at him, make his mutas stay at home. This doesn't mean that you need to suicide into his massive spine wall just because he goes mutas but at least threaten the attack. If you think a kill is possible, then go for it.
Also, if you ever end up in a base trade scenario try to mass cannons at one of your expansions. And when I say mass I mean mass. Parting vs Soulkey(think it was him) ended up this way and parting had over 20 cannons at his third. This will guarantee you that the zerg just cannot kill your base, which will make you able to stay active on the map with your (probably) stronger army, while the zerg tries to get up expansions all around the map. This style is kinda tricky and different at first but once you get the hang of it, it is really good + its much more funny than the usuall "sit in your base untill 25 minutes" protoss styles IMO : )
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Italy12247 Posts
If you play aggressively vs mutas before you have that critical mass of cannons (which isn't going to happen on 2bases) you are simply going to lose the inevitable baserace. Also, muta/ling can actually kill stalker/sentry straight up quite easily if you don't get great positioning and his lings get to close in, which, on creep, they will be able to do more often than not.
The strongest aspect of mutas is that they make YOU stay home. By moving out on the map with a bunch of stalker/sentry you are just doing the Zerg a favour.
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United States4883 Posts
On October 11 2013 04:59 Ravenoz wrote:I just played a game of pvt where my opponent is very passive and goes for hellbat viking ghost. our armys collide and he just facerolls me. here is the replay: http://drop.sc/361912i dont know what exactly went wrong. he harassed me, i harassed him. i was behind in upgrades though, but i dont think it would have mattered in the big fight.
1. I don't think that zealot/stalker poke was worth it. You ended up behind on workers. If you can't stop the bunker from going up, you should just pull back, use the MSC to scout the main, and focus on reacting to what you scout. Otherwise, it looked like a pretty refined build order with really good scouting up until ~10:00.
2. Your 4th was super late in comparison and you handled all the drop harassment pretty badly. You need to work on keeping the right units in the right place and reacting quickly enough. The drop harassment allowed your opponent to just sit back and slowly build an insane ghost count.
3. Against hellbat/marauder, you want to go straight into colossus. You spent far too long on templar tech and built way too many zealots. You definitely should have made an earlier colossus switch when you scouted the hellbats. With ~6 colossus, you have a lot more pushing power on your side. In addition, your harassment needs to be more positionally-oriented. Flying in with a storm drop is cute, but it should definitely be used in conjunction with your main army to pull the terran army out of position. Quite often, a drop in the natural (or the 4th) and a push on the 3rd is really good.
4. Once a large number of ghosts get out on the map, you need to slowly be transitioning into a lategame army of colossus/stalker with templar support and a few tempests and cannon walls on the way. Otherwise, you will get facerolled by mass EMP. And yes, make sure you're continuing your upgrades on time.
So...in short, go for colossus/stalker, don't overbuild zealots, and abuse his lack of mobility with position-based harassment. And scout more.
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Simple question, at least I hope so. When should I be going single forge vs double forge. Also, when going single forge, what is the upgrade order for the match ups. So far I have been upgrading armor for terran and weapons for zerg and protoss.
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double forge is usually for colossus based macro builds since you want both the armor and the weapons for the colossus damage. In storm based builds you don't need double forge as much since you will be relying more on the damage of storm instead of any weapons upgrades.
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United States7483 Posts
On October 12 2013 10:46 VayneAuthority wrote:
double forge is usually for colossus based macro builds since you want both the armor and the weapons for the colossus damage. In storm based builds you don't need double forge as much since you will be relying more on the damage of storm instead of any weapons upgrades.
It has less to do with needing the upgrades and more to do with being able to afford them. Many stalker/colossus builds use one forge just for weapons while templar first builds often get one forge just for armor. You often can't afford a second forge because the gas cost is so high that it cuts into your unit count, giving your opponent a timing. Gateway centric builds that delay storm (like chargelot/archon) or colossus builds that go heavier on zealots are more able to afford the second forge. You want as many upgrades as you can afford as quickly as you can get them without cutting so many units that you lose to a timing (unless you're hitting a specific timing attack yourself), but upgrades cost gas that you often need for other stuff.
It also depends slightly on what you're scouting: if he's going double ebay, you can afford the second forge most of the time even if it wasn't necessarily in your original build. You'll often see pro players open one forge, scout for a while, see that they aren't in danger, and add a second forge.
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United States4883 Posts
On October 12 2013 10:29 Mertz wrote:
Simple question, at least I hope so. When should I be going single forge vs double forge. Also, when going single forge, what is the upgrade order for the match ups. So far I have been upgrading armor for terran and weapons for zerg and protoss.
Single forge vs. double forge is a decision you make at the beginning of the game and usually has nothing to do with your opponent's build or playstyle. Double forge is almost never used in PvP or PvZ unless your opponent is playing super passive. If you go templar first in PvT, you generally go single forge since you can't afford both double ups and templar tech. If you go colossus, you can go for either, it really just depends on the map and your ability to secure 3 bases.
In PvT, always armor first no matter what; many players will even go all the way up to +3 armor before starting attack (mostly with templar-based play). In PvP and PvZ, you always want to be going for attack (all the way up to +3) as it benefits your heavy hitters most: colossus, immortals, and archons. In PvZ, especially, you want to be keeping your attack upgrade ahead of your opponent's carapace upgrade as it means that zealots kill zerglings in 2 swipes instead of 3.
Overall, I would stick to single forge play on ladder unless your opponent plays REALLY passively and never attacks.
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In addition to what's already been said, keep in mind you can also go double forge (or single if you will) 1 colossus + charge while skipping thermal lance and getting a templar archives for storm. Later on, you can add more colossi and thermal lance. Armor upgrade are a very big deal for zealots. Open a unit tester map and make a handful of zealots and marines. Let them engage and do not micro. You'll see how much armor upgrades helps compared to attack upgrades.
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Can someone link a few replays of how to use tempests in the lategame against a ghost / viking heavy composition. I cant really find any where that was done succsessfully
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On October 12 2013 16:24 weikor wrote:
Can someone link a few replays of how to use tempests in the lategame against a ghost / viking heavy composition. I cant really find any where that was done succsessfully
Not much to say, except you want to have templar + tempest, colossi are also a possible addition but not as crucial. Secure key map positions with cannons to avoid ghosts wreaking havoc on everything you have and siege the turtling terran. Storm whatever gets too close. You can also have an oracle for revelation, it's pretty nice. Aside from that, tempests in high numbers do pretty well against vikings when you have storm. You should still have observer detection, you can't fully rely on cannons to move forward when you do so. Go for a high tempest count, 10 or 12 tempests if you're going colossi... or even more without colossi, dunno... get air upgrades as well as shields, since this is a very late game situation and you should be able to afford a lot of upgrades... and get cannons, cannons, cannons.
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Italy12247 Posts
On October 12 2013 13:47 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2013 10:29 Mertz wrote:
Simple question, at least I hope so. When should I be going single forge vs double forge. Also, when going single forge, what is the upgrade order for the match ups. So far I have been upgrading armor for terran and weapons for zerg and protoss. Single forge vs. double forge is a decision you make at the beginning of the game and usually has nothing to do with your opponent's build or playstyle. Double forge is almost never used in PvP or PvZ unless your opponent is playing super passive. If you go templar first in PvT, you generally go single forge since you can't afford both double ups and templar tech. If you go colossus, you can go for either, it really just depends on the map and your ability to secure 3 bases. In PvT, always armor first no matter what; many players will even go all the way up to +3 armor before starting attack (mostly with templar-based play). In PvP and PvZ, you always want to be going for attack (all the way up to +3) as it benefits your heavy hitters most: colossus, immortals, and archons. In PvZ, especially, you want to be keeping your attack upgrade ahead of your opponent's carapace upgrade as it means that zealots kill zerglings in 2 swipes instead of 3. Overall, I would stick to single forge play on ladder unless your opponent plays REALLY passively and never attacks.
Additionally, in PvT and (arguably) some PvP situations like archon/immortal mirrors, it's possible to open single forge and add a second one after taking your third.
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United States7483 Posts
On October 12 2013 17:55 vhapter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2013 16:24 weikor wrote:
Can someone link a few replays of how to use tempests in the lategame against a ghost / viking heavy composition. I cant really find any where that was done succsessfully Not much to say, except you want to have templar + tempest, colossi are also a possible addition but not as crucial. Secure key map positions with cannons to avoid ghosts wreaking havoc on everything you have and siege the turtling terran. Storm whatever gets too close. You can also have an oracle for revelation, it's pretty nice. Aside from that, tempests in high numbers do pretty well against vikings when you have storm. You should still have observer detection, you can't fully rely on cannons to move forward when you do so. Go for a high tempest count, 10 or 12 tempests if you're going colossi... or even more without colossi, dunno... get air upgrades as well as shields, since this is a very late game situation and you should be able to afford a lot of upgrades... and get cannons, cannons, cannons.
Against mass ghost viking medivac, colossi are absolutely crucial, you will not have the DPS to win that fight in a straight up engagement without them. With mass ghost, they can spam EMP on everything you have all day long and you'll probably never get a storm off, you absolutely have to have colossi. Having 4-6 tempest can be nice to pick at things from range and force an engagement, but you cannot kill the ghosts without colossi.
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On October 13 2013 02:39 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2013 17:55 vhapter wrote:On October 12 2013 16:24 weikor wrote:
Can someone link a few replays of how to use tempests in the lategame against a ghost / viking heavy composition. I cant really find any where that was done succsessfully Not much to say, except you want to have templar + tempest, colossi are also a possible addition but not as crucial. Secure key map positions with cannons to avoid ghosts wreaking havoc on everything you have and siege the turtling terran. Storm whatever gets too close. You can also have an oracle for revelation, it's pretty nice. Aside from that, tempests in high numbers do pretty well against vikings when you have storm. You should still have observer detection, you can't fully rely on cannons to move forward when you do so. Go for a high tempest count, 10 or 12 tempests if you're going colossi... or even more without colossi, dunno... get air upgrades as well as shields, since this is a very late game situation and you should be able to afford a lot of upgrades... and get cannons, cannons, cannons. Against mass ghost viking medivac, colossi are absolutely crucial, you will not have the DPS to win that fight in a straight up engagement without them. With mass ghost, they can spam EMP on everything you have all day long and you'll probably never get a storm off, you absolutely have to have colossi. Having 4-6 tempest can be nice to pick at things from range and force an engagement, but you cannot kill the ghosts without colossi.
Oh yeah (sigh)... 4-6 tempests don't cut it. I'm talking about mass tempests, like 10-12 tempests + cannons for detection, so you siege from afar while storming anything that comes close to your army. Colossi are the least important unit in this composition if you get cannons up, but they're definitely a good addition.
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The thing is, I would really appreciate a pro level replay on this lategame transition.
This sounds good on paper, but what do you do if he doomdrops your main with 6 medivacs or something along those lines.
I haven't seen a pro player do this yet, and would like to see how he achieves this army.
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Italy12247 Posts
Your drop defense doesnt really change with your unit composition. If he doom drops your main you are supposed to spot it with an obs and defend it, as usual.
Also, since it's an extreme lategame transtion, you should have enough warpgates and templar in position anyway.
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Day9 has done a daily on this late game style very recently, it shouldn't be hard to find. 
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Does anyone have a link to a game where the 1-colossus 7-gate push was used in PvP? It seems quite powerful, but I can't remember where I saw it done.
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How many probes should I stop at? I saw a pvp thread where someone mentioned stopping at around 65 (16 on minerals and 3 gas for three bases). Is it better to top at that soft cap or around 90 probes to saturate 3 bases completely. Are all matchups the same?
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United States4883 Posts
On October 15 2013 00:40 Mertz wrote:
How many probes should I stop at? I saw a pvp thread where someone mentioned stopping at around 65 (16 on minerals and 3 gas for three bases). Is it better to top at that soft cap or around 90 probes to saturate 3 bases completely. Are all matchups the same?
For protoss, the number is always 66. That is 16 probes on minerals, 6 probes on gas at each base. Zerg and terran have variations because of the way MULEs and SH/static D works, but for protoss, you're always going to be aiming for 66. No more, no less!
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On October 15 2013 00:53 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 00:40 Mertz wrote:
How many probes should I stop at? I saw a pvp thread where someone mentioned stopping at around 65 (16 on minerals and 3 gas for three bases). Is it better to top at that soft cap or around 90 probes to saturate 3 bases completely. Are all matchups the same? For protoss, the number is always 66. That is 16 probes on minerals, 6 probes on gas at each base. Zerg and terran have variations because of the way MULEs and SH/static D works, but for protoss, you're always going to be aiming for 66. No more, no less!
Assuming you aren't waiting to take your fourth base after your main base's minerals/gas are mined out, 72 is a more solid number to shoot for a late game mining off 3 1/2 bases.
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