EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 126
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Salivanth
Australia1071 Posts
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Ikris
24 Posts
I've been watching more and more PvZs to try and understand what's going on in this matchup. From what I saw, (this is using mostly hero's stream, proleague and homestory.) when the protoss plays standard they lose, but when protoss is a little more experimental, take a super quick 3rd or catches the zerg on a bad attack, they have a better chance of winning. I'm only in gold and understand if I macro and scout better then I'll win, but from the games I've seen, there doesn't seem to be a build, timing, or even play style that could be considered both standard as well as effective. Am I wrong here. Btw, this is not balance whine, I'm just trying to figure out the game. | ||
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mamaDrone
Sweden43 Posts
On June 24 2013 02:45 Ikris wrote: After switching to HOTS a few weeks ago, I'm under 50% winrate against Zerg. I've been watching more and more PvZs to try and understand what's going on in this matchup. From what I saw, (this is using mostly hero's stream, proleague and homestory.) when the protoss plays standard they lose, but when protoss is a little more experimental, take a super quick 3rd or catches the zerg on a bad attack, they have a better chance of winning. I'm only in gold and understand if I macro and scout better then I'll win, but from the games I've seen, there doesn't seem to be a build, timing, or even play style that could be considered both standard as well as effective. Am I wrong here. Btw, this is not balance whine, I'm just trying to figure out the game. PvZ is the match up I'm most confident in, and it's my second best match up at the moment (67% w/l @ mid master). I'm very fond of opening Gateway expand as it allows me to put pressure on the zerg early (normally you follow up the expand with +3 gates or +2 gates and a forge). What you want to do is to deny his third for as long as possible and at the same time force him to make units instead of drones. This do however require that you're on top of your game as it's very easy to fall behind on macro. If you choose to go for a FFE you need to delay his natural/third by pylon blocking and/or putting down a few cannons, but it's generally a more safe and macro oriented opener. Generally the Zerg either go for mutas or roach hydra depending on what they scout from you. If they scout a gateway expand they should go for quick speedlings. You can play very standard versus Zerg but it requires you to disrupt his macro as much as possible. It's hard to pin point what you actually need help with without replays. There are a few general strategies that you can do versus a zerg that is somewhat failproof given that you have some basic knowledge of the game. FFE double stargate (into void rays) works very well, even up to a Master-league level. This allows you to take a fairly safe third around 8 minutes (with 2-3 void rays and a sentry or two). I've found that 1g expand -> 4g is best followed up by a "mantrain" (I believe that's what it's called), with a few immortals, sentries and a crapton of zealots (I usually incorporate DTs + charge too). This might not be exactly what you were looking for but I find the match up being quite straight forward, at least on the ladder. You need to delay expansions, disrupt his macro, force units instead of drones and force the Zerg into reactions YOU want (keep in mind that Zerg is a reactionary race). | ||
Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
1) Zerg lair tech is slightly changed compared to WoL. Pure roach isn't as dangerous because of the nexus cannon and new void rays, but roach/hydra, hydra/ling, or roach/hydra/corruptor timings on your third are more common and scarier. 2) Zerg has more midgame options. Adding on to lair timings, he can go for mass heavy upgrades+speedlings into ultras, mass muta, or swarm hosts in the midgame. 3) Each Zerg composition requires a very wildly differing response, so you MUST stay on top of your scouting. Hallucination is particularly useful.
4) In lategame you want a combination of colossus/skytoss/templar with a few immortals if he goes ultra, he'll go for some combination of swarm host/viper/corruptor/infestor/queen/broodlord. The lategame plays out quite similarly to WoL (free units vs lasers of imba death), except for the fact that vortex isn't a factor. | ||
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MistSC2
Sweden583 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
Gateway expand: simcity around your nexus, stall for time until your better economy kicks in. For example, Life vs Parting on Star Station from WCS KR. | ||
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MistSC2
Sweden583 Posts
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PsychoS
United States5 Posts
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phil.ipp
Austria1067 Posts
for example the blink builds are all without MSC. what would be a good build order for a blink rush including a MSC? | ||
Olli
Austria24422 Posts
On June 24 2013 22:31 phil.ipp wrote: i checked liquipedia, and most of the PvP builds are not updatet for HOTS. for example the blink builds are all without MSC. what would be a good build order for a blink rush including a MSC? Parting's blink build is pretty good. I think Teoita posted it some time ago, you might have to stalk his profile and go through his posts. Don't worry, that's normal. I do it every 5 days or so. Basically the build is a 3 stalker rush with stalker -> twilight -> 2 more stalkers | ||
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hipo
France482 Posts
On June 24 2013 22:31 phil.ipp wrote: i checked liquipedia, and most of the PvP builds are not updatet for HOTS. for example the blink builds are all without MSC. what would be a good build order for a blink rush including a MSC? Parting's blink build: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=414344 Sos' blink build: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=410802 | ||
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Surkein
35 Posts
I seem to face this every now and then when I am pushing terran front etc. Has someone figured out what is an ideal warp in to deal with this? Any other useful tips (when you are not prepared for the drops with HTs, cannons etc)? Most of the time I just warp in something I can afford... and then find a moment later that they did either shit poor or way too good job in defending mi precious probes Cheers and thanks for the help | ||
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vBr
Sweden193 Posts
On June 25 2013 02:29 Surkein wrote: PvT: 2 hellbat drops against multiple bases when my army is out of position: I seem to face this every now and then when I am pushing terran front etc. Has someone figured out what is an ideal warp in to deal with this? Any other useful tips (when you are not prepared for the drops with HTs, cannons etc)? Most of the time I just warp in something I can afford... and then find a moment later that they did either shit poor or way too good job in defending mi precious probes Cheers and thanks for the help I just blindly make a cannon in each mineral line around 7~ min. Widow mine or hellbat drops are very common and those cannons could be useful later as well. With MSC you can delay additional gateways after 1 gate FE for a long while so you can easily afford it I feel. | ||
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Ikris
24 Posts
On June 24 2013 04:37 Teoita wrote:
I realized that roach hydra should be played the same way it used to be. I went into the unit tester and completely forgot how to engage a huge roach/hyrda swarm using forcefields. Muta/ling is still the unit comp that gets me. It seems like by being forced to go stargate tech, if you're able to battle his mutas effectively your ground army is really weak due to the lack of AOE. So zerg can just tech switch to roach/ling. | ||
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aldochillbro
187 Posts
Should I go into either voids or immortals and quickly go chargelot archon myself? collosus? I'm just not sure how to follow up. same thing with dt's. let's say that I stop the initial dt's with an oracle. should I go pheonix or void rays? what should i tech up to and when? it's just confusing to me right now  thank you in advance edit: my build goes 1 gate, 1 sg, then 2 more gates if i can't scout the expand or if it's not there and i expand if i see them expand. | ||
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TokO
Norway577 Posts
On June 25 2013 09:40 aldochillbro wrote: So I found a pvp build that I like that goes pheonix into 3gate(if no expand) and it's been working out really great for me. The only thing I can't figure out is what do i do against twilight play? for example, if i see my opponent go robo expand and then go into blink in order stop the pheonix harass, I go into immortal and void production cuz they're awesome against stalkers. if he already went blink and shuts it down, he can go into chargelot archon much much faster, so voids/immortals aren't the best option and i just get ROLLED by zealots. Should I go into either voids or immortals and quickly go chargelot archon myself? collosus? I'm just not sure how to follow up. same thing with dt's. let's say that I stop the initial dt's with an oracle. should I go pheonix or void rays? what should i tech up to and when? it's just confusing to me right now thank you in advance edit: my build goes 1 gate, 1 sg, then 2 more gates if i can't scout the expand or if it's not there and i expand if i see them expand. Have you tried going back into colossus-chargelot-stalker composition -> 3rd + archons. Looking into a lot of Proleague PvP's about a month or two back, the players usually converged into double robo colossus-chargelot-archon after their opening. I'm not sure about if the meta has changed any recently. Anyway, if my assumption about the metagame is correct, I would attempt to gain an economic leverage while heading into a midgame composition of chargelot-stalker-colossus, and attempt to stay ahead with your phoenixes by picking up the stray probes and forcing him to invest in stalkers\cannons. If your opponent tries to go blink to punish you I'd initially get a composition of two immortals and 2-4 sentries to keep your expand safe, and then increase your stalker count if he commits to making stalkers offensively. Void Rays might feel very powerful with stalker support, but as the game goes into the mid game, they lose their potential as nexus cannon can prevent them from assailing the natural. They are very expensive, and as the game goes further out, the pure ground army gains an edge in terms of the amount of units that are affected by upgrades. That's why I think the VR is very fragile. If you want to use void rays I think you need to put a lot of thought and look at replays regarding which timings you can use them and how you need to transition to units such as tempests and templars. The same advice goes for DT's off your stargate play. I'd get a robotics asap, attempt to stabilise on two bases and go towards colossus. If he attempts to Chargelot-Archon all-in you, you have to wall off your natural and just turtle until you have a couple of colossus. Use hallucinated phoenix to scout how he expands and further evaluate the position of the game and whether you can punish him or take an expand yourself. I'm very fond of colossus play, but it's not because I disprove of other styles, but I think the other styles take a lot of finesse that has to be figured out and researched, so if you want to play them, you should take that into consideration. To me, chargelot archon in the midgame is a very desperate move, hoping to get a lucky surround on an overcommiting player who has power units such as VR's and Immortals. | ||
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RiceAgainst
United States1849 Posts
So, where do I position my army? Between my 2nd and 3rd? At my 3rd and just get out immo/colossus before the timing so that way all my army is together? At my natural? Also, should I be making VRs w/ my SG? It tends to idle after the initial phoenixes, unless I scout Mutas. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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