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I've been having alot of trouble against the 10gate into 3gate in PvP. Assuming I figure out that its coming by the time my core is 3/4 done (judged based on zealot+gate timing), what's the proper response? The timing hits before my MsC has enough for a photon overcharge, and at best its zealot stalker vs zealot stalker probe, but usually I skip the zealot so its just a stalker vs zealot stalker. They usually get up the ramp with that advantage, and after the 1st warpin it's zealot +4 stalkers vs 2 stalkers or stalker sentry+MsC+ probes for ~20 seconds until my wg finishes, they can usually push that advantage into a win whether I pull probes at this point or not. Should I pull probes to prevent them from getting up the ramp?
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United States4883 Posts
On June 25 2013 23:07 SnipedAgain wrote:
I've been having alot of trouble against the 10gate into 3gate in PvP. Assuming I figure out that its coming by the time my core is 3/4 done (judged based on zealot+gate timing), what's the proper response? The timing hits before my MsC has enough for a photon overcharge, and at best its zealot stalker vs zealot stalker probe, but usually I skip the zealot so its just a stalker vs zealot stalker. They usually get up the ramp with that advantage, and after the 1st warpin it's zealot +4 stalkers vs 2 stalkers or stalker sentry+MsC+ probes for ~20 seconds until my wg finishes, they can usually push that advantage into a win whether I pull probes at this point or not. Should I pull probes to prevent them from getting up the ramp?
You should build a zealot and cancel it right before the cyber core finishes. This method allows you to get a zealot in case you need one against something like a proxy 10-gate or a 10-gate fast warpgate.
If you're doing a tech build, continue the tech build and consider giving your warpgate one (1) chronoboost. DON'T deviate by trying to get up 4-gates and chronoboosting your warpgate like crazy. You should be able to hold this off if you don't lose your head, and you should be so far ahead and it won't even matter if you take a few probe losses.
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On June 26 2013 10:04 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 23:07 SnipedAgain wrote:
I've been having alot of trouble against the 10gate into 3gate in PvP. Assuming I figure out that its coming by the time my core is 3/4 done (judged based on zealot+gate timing), what's the proper response? The timing hits before my MsC has enough for a photon overcharge, and at best its zealot stalker vs zealot stalker probe, but usually I skip the zealot so its just a stalker vs zealot stalker. They usually get up the ramp with that advantage, and after the 1st warpin it's zealot +4 stalkers vs 2 stalkers or stalker sentry+MsC+ probes for ~20 seconds until my wg finishes, they can usually push that advantage into a win whether I pull probes at this point or not. Should I pull probes to prevent them from getting up the ramp? You should build a zealot and cancel it right before the cyber core finishes. This method allows you to get a zealot in case you need one against something like a proxy 10-gate or a 10-gate fast warpgate. If you're doing a tech build, continue the tech build and consider giving your warpgate one (1) chronoboost. DON'T deviate by trying to get up 4-gates and chronoboosting your warpgate like crazy. You should be able to hold this off if you don't lose your head, and you should be so far ahead and it won't even matter if you take a few probe losses.
Very bad advice, don't follow it. If you scout 3 gate in pvp, add another gateway at 19, and just constantly pump out stalkers off of 2 gateways. If your macro is decent, you should have enough stalkers to overwhelm his initial units. Make sure to deny any above ground pylons by pulling probes if necessary. Don't bother investing much chronoboost into warpgate research.
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United States4883 Posts
On June 26 2013 10:14 aznheat80 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 10:04 SC2John wrote:On June 25 2013 23:07 SnipedAgain wrote:
I've been having alot of trouble against the 10gate into 3gate in PvP. Assuming I figure out that its coming by the time my core is 3/4 done (judged based on zealot+gate timing), what's the proper response? The timing hits before my MsC has enough for a photon overcharge, and at best its zealot stalker vs zealot stalker probe, but usually I skip the zealot so its just a stalker vs zealot stalker. They usually get up the ramp with that advantage, and after the 1st warpin it's zealot +4 stalkers vs 2 stalkers or stalker sentry+MsC+ probes for ~20 seconds until my wg finishes, they can usually push that advantage into a win whether I pull probes at this point or not. Should I pull probes to prevent them from getting up the ramp? You should build a zealot and cancel it right before the cyber core finishes. This method allows you to get a zealot in case you need one against something like a proxy 10-gate or a 10-gate fast warpgate. If you're doing a tech build, continue the tech build and consider giving your warpgate one (1) chronoboost. DON'T deviate by trying to get up 4-gates and chronoboosting your warpgate like crazy. You should be able to hold this off if you don't lose your head, and you should be so far ahead and it won't even matter if you take a few probe losses. Very bad advice, don't follow it. If you scout 3 gate in pvp, add another gateway at 19, and just constantly pump out stalkers off of 2 gateways. If your macro is decent, you should have enough stalkers to overwhelm his initial units. Make sure to deny any above ground pylons by pulling probes if necessary. Don't bother investing much chronoboost into warpgate research.
With a standard core scout, you can't identify a 10-gate until around 21 supply. I did a test run with the standard blink build that I use and I have photon overcharge + 2 stalkers/1 zealot and a 3rd stalker on the way at 5:45, when the initial warpin hits (I also tested this out and got the fastest possible warpgate). By redistributing some chronoboost onto my stalkers instead of saving them for blink, I was able to get almost equal supply of units PLUS blink and an overcharge. In addition, I added 1 chronoboost to my warpgate for a 6:20 warpgate, giving me 2 warpins until photon overcharge wears off with blink nearly half done. (With warpins available, I can forcefield the ramp indefinitely).
If you open with an initial sentry, you actually give yourself an additional 40 seconds on top of this with FF.
So no, with the proper control and very precise timings, you hold this with minimal changes to your build. You should not freak out and completely change your build.
EDIT: Sidenote: Against a 10-gate, you have free reign of the map until 5:40, so you can prevent any pylons from going down in your main or natural. This is because zealot + stalker + MsC > zealot + stalker and you can just snipe the probe.
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On June 26 2013 11:16 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 10:14 aznheat80 wrote:On June 26 2013 10:04 SC2John wrote:On June 25 2013 23:07 SnipedAgain wrote:
I've been having alot of trouble against the 10gate into 3gate in PvP. Assuming I figure out that its coming by the time my core is 3/4 done (judged based on zealot+gate timing), what's the proper response? The timing hits before my MsC has enough for a photon overcharge, and at best its zealot stalker vs zealot stalker probe, but usually I skip the zealot so its just a stalker vs zealot stalker. They usually get up the ramp with that advantage, and after the 1st warpin it's zealot +4 stalkers vs 2 stalkers or stalker sentry+MsC+ probes for ~20 seconds until my wg finishes, they can usually push that advantage into a win whether I pull probes at this point or not. Should I pull probes to prevent them from getting up the ramp? You should build a zealot and cancel it right before the cyber core finishes. This method allows you to get a zealot in case you need one against something like a proxy 10-gate or a 10-gate fast warpgate. If you're doing a tech build, continue the tech build and consider giving your warpgate one (1) chronoboost. DON'T deviate by trying to get up 4-gates and chronoboosting your warpgate like crazy. You should be able to hold this off if you don't lose your head, and you should be so far ahead and it won't even matter if you take a few probe losses. Very bad advice, don't follow it. If you scout 3 gate in pvp, add another gateway at 19, and just constantly pump out stalkers off of 2 gateways. If your macro is decent, you should have enough stalkers to overwhelm his initial units. Make sure to deny any above ground pylons by pulling probes if necessary. Don't bother investing much chronoboost into warpgate research. With a standard core scout, you can't identify a 10-gate until around 21 supply. I did a test run with the standard blink build that I use and I have photon overcharge + 2 stalkers/1 zealot and a 3rd stalker on the way at 5:45, when the initial warpin hits (I also tested this out and got the fastest possible warpgate). By redistributing some chronoboost onto my stalkers instead of saving them for blink, I was able to get almost equal supply of units PLUS blink and an overcharge. In addition, I added 1 chronoboost to my warpgate for a 6:20 warpgate, giving me 2 warpins until photon overcharge wears off with blink nearly half done. (With warpins available, I can forcefield the ramp indefinitely). If you open with an initial sentry, you actually give yourself an additional 40 seconds on top of this with FF. So no, with the proper control and very precise timings, you hold this with minimal changes to your build. You should not freak out and completely change your build. EDIT: Sidenote: Against a 10-gate, you have free reign of the map until 5:40, so you can prevent any pylons from going down in your main or natural. This is because zealot + stalker + MsC > zealot + stalker and you can just snipe the probe.
Ok, except the 3 gate build he is referring to can hit as fast as 5:22, 5:45 is 4 gate...
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United States4883 Posts
On June 26 2013 11:50 aznheat80 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 11:16 SC2John wrote:On June 26 2013 10:14 aznheat80 wrote:On June 26 2013 10:04 SC2John wrote:On June 25 2013 23:07 SnipedAgain wrote:
I've been having alot of trouble against the 10gate into 3gate in PvP. Assuming I figure out that its coming by the time my core is 3/4 done (judged based on zealot+gate timing), what's the proper response? The timing hits before my MsC has enough for a photon overcharge, and at best its zealot stalker vs zealot stalker probe, but usually I skip the zealot so its just a stalker vs zealot stalker. They usually get up the ramp with that advantage, and after the 1st warpin it's zealot +4 stalkers vs 2 stalkers or stalker sentry+MsC+ probes for ~20 seconds until my wg finishes, they can usually push that advantage into a win whether I pull probes at this point or not. Should I pull probes to prevent them from getting up the ramp? You should build a zealot and cancel it right before the cyber core finishes. This method allows you to get a zealot in case you need one against something like a proxy 10-gate or a 10-gate fast warpgate. If you're doing a tech build, continue the tech build and consider giving your warpgate one (1) chronoboost. DON'T deviate by trying to get up 4-gates and chronoboosting your warpgate like crazy. You should be able to hold this off if you don't lose your head, and you should be so far ahead and it won't even matter if you take a few probe losses. Very bad advice, don't follow it. If you scout 3 gate in pvp, add another gateway at 19, and just constantly pump out stalkers off of 2 gateways. If your macro is decent, you should have enough stalkers to overwhelm his initial units. Make sure to deny any above ground pylons by pulling probes if necessary. Don't bother investing much chronoboost into warpgate research. With a standard core scout, you can't identify a 10-gate until around 21 supply. I did a test run with the standard blink build that I use and I have photon overcharge + 2 stalkers/1 zealot and a 3rd stalker on the way at 5:45, when the initial warpin hits (I also tested this out and got the fastest possible warpgate). By redistributing some chronoboost onto my stalkers instead of saving them for blink, I was able to get almost equal supply of units PLUS blink and an overcharge. In addition, I added 1 chronoboost to my warpgate for a 6:20 warpgate, giving me 2 warpins until photon overcharge wears off with blink nearly half done. (With warpins available, I can forcefield the ramp indefinitely). If you open with an initial sentry, you actually give yourself an additional 40 seconds on top of this with FF. So no, with the proper control and very precise timings, you hold this with minimal changes to your build. You should not freak out and completely change your build. EDIT: Sidenote: Against a 10-gate, you have free reign of the map until 5:40, so you can prevent any pylons from going down in your main or natural. This is because zealot + stalker + MsC > zealot + stalker and you can just snipe the probe. Ok, except the 3 gate build he is referring to can hit as fast as 5:22, 5:45 is 4 gate...
The first warpin HITS at 5:45. As in, the first group of units will be in your main at 5:45, while the warpin happened a little earlier outside of your natural.
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On June 26 2013 11:59 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 11:50 aznheat80 wrote:On June 26 2013 11:16 SC2John wrote:On June 26 2013 10:14 aznheat80 wrote:On June 26 2013 10:04 SC2John wrote:On June 25 2013 23:07 SnipedAgain wrote:
I've been having alot of trouble against the 10gate into 3gate in PvP. Assuming I figure out that its coming by the time my core is 3/4 done (judged based on zealot+gate timing), what's the proper response? The timing hits before my MsC has enough for a photon overcharge, and at best its zealot stalker vs zealot stalker probe, but usually I skip the zealot so its just a stalker vs zealot stalker. They usually get up the ramp with that advantage, and after the 1st warpin it's zealot +4 stalkers vs 2 stalkers or stalker sentry+MsC+ probes for ~20 seconds until my wg finishes, they can usually push that advantage into a win whether I pull probes at this point or not. Should I pull probes to prevent them from getting up the ramp? You should build a zealot and cancel it right before the cyber core finishes. This method allows you to get a zealot in case you need one against something like a proxy 10-gate or a 10-gate fast warpgate. If you're doing a tech build, continue the tech build and consider giving your warpgate one (1) chronoboost. DON'T deviate by trying to get up 4-gates and chronoboosting your warpgate like crazy. You should be able to hold this off if you don't lose your head, and you should be so far ahead and it won't even matter if you take a few probe losses. Very bad advice, don't follow it. If you scout 3 gate in pvp, add another gateway at 19, and just constantly pump out stalkers off of 2 gateways. If your macro is decent, you should have enough stalkers to overwhelm his initial units. Make sure to deny any above ground pylons by pulling probes if necessary. Don't bother investing much chronoboost into warpgate research. With a standard core scout, you can't identify a 10-gate until around 21 supply. I did a test run with the standard blink build that I use and I have photon overcharge + 2 stalkers/1 zealot and a 3rd stalker on the way at 5:45, when the initial warpin hits (I also tested this out and got the fastest possible warpgate). By redistributing some chronoboost onto my stalkers instead of saving them for blink, I was able to get almost equal supply of units PLUS blink and an overcharge. In addition, I added 1 chronoboost to my warpgate for a 6:20 warpgate, giving me 2 warpins until photon overcharge wears off with blink nearly half done. (With warpins available, I can forcefield the ramp indefinitely). If you open with an initial sentry, you actually give yourself an additional 40 seconds on top of this with FF. So no, with the proper control and very precise timings, you hold this with minimal changes to your build. You should not freak out and completely change your build. EDIT: Sidenote: Against a 10-gate, you have free reign of the map until 5:40, so you can prevent any pylons from going down in your main or natural. This is because zealot + stalker + MsC > zealot + stalker and you can just snipe the probe. Ok, except the 3 gate build he is referring to can hit as fast as 5:22, 5:45 is 4 gate... The first warpin HITS at 5:45. As in, the first group of units will be in your main at 5:45, while the warpin happened a little earlier outside of your natural.
In a 3 gate press, you place the pylons at the base of your opponents ramp. I'm pretty sure it takes less than 23 seconds to walk up a ramp.
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In the pvp matchup, is it viable to mass phoenix's? I've been experimenting with an oracle, and then massing phoenixes, even adding a second phoenix and adding upgrades. I remember that there was a game between zest and someone else where it was just one huge phoenix battle. (It was the one where zest got proxy gated, but somehow held it off) I'm really inexperienced on this topic, but it seems to still work out.
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Austria24422 Posts
On June 27 2013 01:13 iMrising wrote:
In the pvp matchup, is it viable to mass phoenix's? I've been experimenting with an oracle, and then massing phoenixes, even adding a second phoenix and adding upgrades. I remember that there was a game between zest and someone else where it was just one huge phoenix battle. (It was the one where zest got proxy gated, but somehow held it off) I'm really inexperienced on this topic, but it seems to still work out.
Zest vs Stork on BelShir Vestige
Typically phoenix wars happen when both players open stargate. That's because the player with more phoenixes will win. There's no real way to transition out of it until you have a good lead in phoenixes, then you transition to templar.
The reason why it doesn't work out too well if you just straight up do it is because your opponent will realize it and can get a fast counter to it like templar to kill your phoenixes with feedback or at least render them useless in fights and then morph them into archons which can't be lifted up. Or mass blink stalkers which, if you get a big amount quickly, still beats a player going really phoenix heavy early. The reason for this is that double stargate phoenix is so expensive that it barely leaves you with anything else and massing phoenixes from one stargate increases your count too slowly to become dangerous.
So to summarize, only go mass phoenix if your opponent also opened stargate. Why? Because he can't just switch out of it or you can kill him during the transition or at least do crippling damage.
However, there is a rather old strategy where you throw down double stargate on 2 bases to surprise your opponent with a sudden huge phoenix count when he doesn't have a counter to it (for example if he's adding a robotics bay and forge => this will heavily eat into his gas and he won't want to make stalkers at this point because it delays colossi, tech, upgrades and stalkers are bad in straight up fights). In HotS though most players go voidrays instead of phoenixes when they do this because voidrays are just better at killing an opponent's army than phoenixes are and they stay useful after you reveal them while you really have to do heavy damage if you do it with phoenixes, otherwise they become rather useless fairly quickly..
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On June 26 2013 11:59 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 11:50 aznheat80 wrote:On June 26 2013 11:16 SC2John wrote:On June 26 2013 10:14 aznheat80 wrote:On June 26 2013 10:04 SC2John wrote:On June 25 2013 23:07 SnipedAgain wrote:
I've been having alot of trouble against the 10gate into 3gate in PvP. Assuming I figure out that its coming by the time my core is 3/4 done (judged based on zealot+gate timing), what's the proper response? The timing hits before my MsC has enough for a photon overcharge, and at best its zealot stalker vs zealot stalker probe, but usually I skip the zealot so its just a stalker vs zealot stalker. They usually get up the ramp with that advantage, and after the 1st warpin it's zealot +4 stalkers vs 2 stalkers or stalker sentry+MsC+ probes for ~20 seconds until my wg finishes, they can usually push that advantage into a win whether I pull probes at this point or not. Should I pull probes to prevent them from getting up the ramp? You should build a zealot and cancel it right before the cyber core finishes. This method allows you to get a zealot in case you need one against something like a proxy 10-gate or a 10-gate fast warpgate. If you're doing a tech build, continue the tech build and consider giving your warpgate one (1) chronoboost. DON'T deviate by trying to get up 4-gates and chronoboosting your warpgate like crazy. You should be able to hold this off if you don't lose your head, and you should be so far ahead and it won't even matter if you take a few probe losses. Very bad advice, don't follow it. If you scout 3 gate in pvp, add another gateway at 19, and just constantly pump out stalkers off of 2 gateways. If your macro is decent, you should have enough stalkers to overwhelm his initial units. Make sure to deny any above ground pylons by pulling probes if necessary. Don't bother investing much chronoboost into warpgate research. With a standard core scout, you can't identify a 10-gate until around 21 supply. I did a test run with the standard blink build that I use and I have photon overcharge + 2 stalkers/1 zealot and a 3rd stalker on the way at 5:45, when the initial warpin hits (I also tested this out and got the fastest possible warpgate). By redistributing some chronoboost onto my stalkers instead of saving them for blink, I was able to get almost equal supply of units PLUS blink and an overcharge. In addition, I added 1 chronoboost to my warpgate for a 6:20 warpgate, giving me 2 warpins until photon overcharge wears off with blink nearly half done. (With warpins available, I can forcefield the ramp indefinitely). If you open with an initial sentry, you actually give yourself an additional 40 seconds on top of this with FF. So no, with the proper control and very precise timings, you hold this with minimal changes to your build. You should not freak out and completely change your build. EDIT: Sidenote: Against a 10-gate, you have free reign of the map until 5:40, so you can prevent any pylons from going down in your main or natural. This is because zealot + stalker + MsC > zealot + stalker and you can just snipe the probe. Ok, except the 3 gate build he is referring to can hit as fast as 5:22, 5:45 is 4 gate... The first warpin HITS at 5:45. As in, the first group of units will be in your main at 5:45, while the warpin happened a little earlier outside of your natural.
@SC2John, sorry aznheat's right on this one. It shouldn't hit later than 5:30 correctly done, thats the 20 or so seconds he has his way. What's your blink build because if you go 1g->3g without tech until ~7-9 stalkers you should hold comfortably, but if you try to get tc and/or blink before the push comes, you're dead
@aznheat: 2gate-> triple stalker with chronos on gates->5 stalker->3gate->8stalker after warpin w/o MsC right?
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Italy12246 Posts
On June 27 2013 01:19 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2013 01:13 iMrising wrote:
In the pvp matchup, is it viable to mass phoenix's? I've been experimenting with an oracle, and then massing phoenixes, even adding a second phoenix and adding upgrades. I remember that there was a game between zest and someone else where it was just one huge phoenix battle. (It was the one where zest got proxy gated, but somehow held it off) I'm really inexperienced on this topic, but it seems to still work out.
+ Show Spoiler +
Zest vs Stork on BelShir Vestige
Typically phoenix wars happen when both players open stargate. That's because the player with more phoenixes will win. There's no real way to transition out of it until you have a good lead in phoenixes, then you transition to templar.
The reason why it doesn't work out too well if you just straight up do it is because your opponent will realize it and can get a fast counter to it like templar to kill your phoenixes with feedback or at least render them useless in fights and then morph them into archons which can't be lifted up. Or mass blink stalkers which, if you get a big amount quickly, still beats a player going really phoenix heavy early. The reason for this is that double stargate phoenix is so expensive that it barely leaves you with anything else and massing phoenixes from one stargate increases your count too slowly to become dangerous.
So to summarize, only go mass phoenix if your opponent also opened stargate. Why? Because he can't just switch out of it or you can kill him during the transition or at least do crippling damage.
However, there is a rather old strategy where you throw down double stargate on 2 bases to surprise your opponent with a sudden huge phoenix count when he doesn't have a counter to it (for example if he's adding a robotics bay and forge => this will heavily eat into his gas and he won't want to make stalkers at this point because it delays colossi, tech, upgrades and stalkers are bad in straight up fights). In HotS though most players go voidrays instead of phoenixes when they do this because voidrays are just better at killing an opponent's army than phoenixes are and they stay useful after you reveal them while you really have to do heavy damage if you do it with phoenixes, otherwise they become rather useless fairly quickly..
Adding on to this: i've been of the opinion that if both people go stargate on 2bases, then the guy going 2star phoenix -should- have a timing before lots of voids are up to at the very least pressure the void ray player. It's never been done in a pro game to my knowledge, but the few times i've done it it felt pretty strong, and on paper it should work since phoenixes trade evenly with voids but build much faster and are more mobile, thus at least giving you map control.
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On June 27 2013 02:49 SnipedAgain wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 11:59 SC2John wrote:On June 26 2013 11:50 aznheat80 wrote:On June 26 2013 11:16 SC2John wrote:On June 26 2013 10:14 aznheat80 wrote:On June 26 2013 10:04 SC2John wrote:On June 25 2013 23:07 SnipedAgain wrote:
I've been having alot of trouble against the 10gate into 3gate in PvP. Assuming I figure out that its coming by the time my core is 3/4 done (judged based on zealot+gate timing), what's the proper response? The timing hits before my MsC has enough for a photon overcharge, and at best its zealot stalker vs zealot stalker probe, but usually I skip the zealot so its just a stalker vs zealot stalker. They usually get up the ramp with that advantage, and after the 1st warpin it's zealot +4 stalkers vs 2 stalkers or stalker sentry+MsC+ probes for ~20 seconds until my wg finishes, they can usually push that advantage into a win whether I pull probes at this point or not. Should I pull probes to prevent them from getting up the ramp? You should build a zealot and cancel it right before the cyber core finishes. This method allows you to get a zealot in case you need one against something like a proxy 10-gate or a 10-gate fast warpgate. If you're doing a tech build, continue the tech build and consider giving your warpgate one (1) chronoboost. DON'T deviate by trying to get up 4-gates and chronoboosting your warpgate like crazy. You should be able to hold this off if you don't lose your head, and you should be so far ahead and it won't even matter if you take a few probe losses. Very bad advice, don't follow it. If you scout 3 gate in pvp, add another gateway at 19, and just constantly pump out stalkers off of 2 gateways. If your macro is decent, you should have enough stalkers to overwhelm his initial units. Make sure to deny any above ground pylons by pulling probes if necessary. Don't bother investing much chronoboost into warpgate research. With a standard core scout, you can't identify a 10-gate until around 21 supply. I did a test run with the standard blink build that I use and I have photon overcharge + 2 stalkers/1 zealot and a 3rd stalker on the way at 5:45, when the initial warpin hits (I also tested this out and got the fastest possible warpgate). By redistributing some chronoboost onto my stalkers instead of saving them for blink, I was able to get almost equal supply of units PLUS blink and an overcharge. In addition, I added 1 chronoboost to my warpgate for a 6:20 warpgate, giving me 2 warpins until photon overcharge wears off with blink nearly half done. (With warpins available, I can forcefield the ramp indefinitely). If you open with an initial sentry, you actually give yourself an additional 40 seconds on top of this with FF. So no, with the proper control and very precise timings, you hold this with minimal changes to your build. You should not freak out and completely change your build. EDIT: Sidenote: Against a 10-gate, you have free reign of the map until 5:40, so you can prevent any pylons from going down in your main or natural. This is because zealot + stalker + MsC > zealot + stalker and you can just snipe the probe. Ok, except the 3 gate build he is referring to can hit as fast as 5:22, 5:45 is 4 gate... The first warpin HITS at 5:45. As in, the first group of units will be in your main at 5:45, while the warpin happened a little earlier outside of your natural. @SC2John, sorry aznheat's right on this one. It shouldn't hit later than 5:30 correctly done, thats the 20 or so seconds he has his way. What's your blink build because if you go 1g->3g without tech until ~7-9 stalkers you should hold comfortably, but if you try to get tc and/or blink before the push comes, you're dead @aznheat: 2gate-> triple stalker with chronos on gates->5 stalker->3gate->8stalker after warpin w/o MsC right?
yes!
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I have a couple of questions regarding PvT currently. I want to hold off aggression with minimum defenses.
(1) What should I do exactly against a no-medivac 2 base stim push that hits between 9:00-10:00 before my extra gateways are up? I usually get colossus out at about 9:30.
Should I just buy time for my colossus with force fields and engage before my first major warp in round? I'll have about 3 sentries and 5-7 stalkers at most at about 10 minutes. If I buy time for my colossus with force fields, I can't cut his army in half. Is that ok?
(2) In order to be safe against widow mines, I need 2 defensive observers (main and natural). But I want to use these observers for extra map vision at some point. After starting my extra gates, should my priority be a cannon per mineral line to get extra map vision against regular medivac timings (I'll already have 2-3 observers out on the map, depending on whether my scouting one lives), or should I warp in extra units first?
(I generally get 3 stalkers and 3 sentries before adding extra gateways.)
I don't want to gamble against widow mines. I know widow mines aren' t common in regular medivac timings, but it's a possibility that I'd rather not ignore.
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I have problems with my assigned control groups when I have a lot of different spell casters (sentries, msc, temps, voids...) I dont know how to adjust my hotkeys so I can cast all those spells quickly enough. Should i rather be using TAB to toggle or use more control groups? (normally I have "1" = "Army 1", "2" "Army 2" and "3" wargates, 4 Nexus, 5 Robo, 6 Stargate
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Italy12246 Posts
Use more control groups. I use ` to 3 for my army, 4-6 for my buildings, w for warpgates, and y for anything else (usually an obs).
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Is Phoenix/Colossus the future of PvT? I was pondering about this for a while and decided to give it a go so I've been messing around with it and it seems incredibly potent. I think I saw MC doing this type of style as well and I wouldn't be shocked if it picked up steam a bit. It's very good with the current metagame at least. I've been going 1gate expand into stargate, robo, then 2-3 gates (3 if they are doing a timing, 2 if not. In that case I get a forge then a gate for faster upgrades). With the stargate I go straight into phoenixes and get 5-6, since that seems like the happy medium amount for taking out drops without costing a lot of resources (after they start going vikings later I crank phoenixes since they easily deal with vikings and draw fire). I go into colossus while doing that, not usually getting an immortal unless I scout a lot of marauders (the current "thing" seems to be marine heavy timings with 2-4 medivacs at like 10 minutes or so hence the faster colossus. This holds that timing easily if I don't make any mistakes.)
The best part of this style so far has been that it forces Terrans away from some tactics that they previously did. After taking an engagement (win or lose), some Terrans like to load all their stuff up and boost home. They can't do that anymore with this style. It makes it so that those timings they do to snipe the third and whatnot are much riskier so reckless Terrans (the ones who run up, target down the nexus, then immediately boost away) get destroyed by it because they can't rely on boost to keep them safe. It allows Protoss to take a quicker third because they can deal the drops that had previously been keeping us pinned on 2 bases for a long time (or more, the phoenixes scare Terrans away from doing drops so us Protoss don't have to cower in fear in our bases anymore). They also like doing the thing where they put vikings in high ground places where you can't attack them with stalkers. That doesn't work either as the phoenixes will make quick work of the vikings if they stay there. It also works great for keeping medivac counts in check, which is nice because recently so many terrans have been getting a giant cloud of medivacs and it has made their armies so much more potent.
I don't know, I just thought I would throw this idea out there and other people can give it a go perhaps. I haven't seen a lot of pros using it yet but there has been the odd game of it here or there the last few days or so. The thing that makes me like doing this build is that it is actually fun. The whole being pinned in your base/defend drops until you have enough to do a timing thing has been getting very old and this is a breath of fresh air because it seems to allow Protoss to do stuff without being at risk of losing everything to a double drop.
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^ The biggest issue that I see with this kind of style is the never ending question - but at what cost (rofl)? You dump on a stargate/phoenixes/oracles all those resources you'd spend on upgrades. What advantage do you get in the long run if oracles don't do enough damage and the terran plays a safer game and doesn't lose medivacs? As far as I know, none.
Maybe if you can secure a faster third safely... but getting aoe damage and upgrades is still very important and can't be delayed for too long. You also need to survive an scv pull, but that's probably very tricky to pull off if you choose the colossus route, isn't it?
I'm afraid you end up dealing a lot of indirect damage to yourself by going stargate like that. I think the idea itself though is pretty cool and I'd love to try it, it's just that I don't see this style getting me in a better situation than double forge + fast aoe.
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Italy12246 Posts
Yeah i dislike phoenix colossus because a) you have no upgrades and b) your storm is insanely late. I don't think the phoenix +1 range in hots is enough to consider it the future of PvT.
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Yeah that is what I figured. I just have been trying to find some other way to play the matchup because I find the current "standard" way to play PvT quite dull. I think it could show up as one possible option for the matchup, but I guess probably not the standard. I'm going to keep using this style anyway because it has allowed me to win a lot more than the double upgrade into AOE style, but I never liked playing that style to begin with.
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So, I thought I was being cool by doing my own thing, even if I thought it was only decent against dunce hat wearing players, but my last opponent commented "did I miss the new meta? My last 4 toss opponents have used the same strategy: 1 cannon contain." Is this guy mind fucking me or have I missed a new strategy, too? Anyone out there using a 1 cannon contain strategy against Zerg? (outside their choke)
Also, I'm new to early game cheese, but I've recently tried to cannon rush a hatch a few times (before I'd only go for a contain, even against hatch first). Are there any cannon rushing "rules" or replays? Optimal spot to cannon rush behind minerals? Are you supposed to make a cannon by the gap in the middle of the minerals where it can only be attacked by 1 drone, at a time? Atm, I just throw down a cannon pretty haphazardly and hope they either don't notice or give me enough credit for knowing what I'm doing...
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EPT
