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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
Is it ok to get both forge and robo immediately after the nexus and 2nd gas? Is it ok to blindly build one cannon per mineral line at 7-8 minutes to defend from hellbat (or bio) drops? PvP After a dt expand, what is the best transition (depending on what my opponent is doing)? When should I build void rays? | ||
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shivver
United States232 Posts
I get sick and tired of building probes all the time man lol, I need something more than +2 blink etc. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On June 28 2013 17:53 2xNoodle wrote: So I've decided to take Destiny's "4gate until Diamond league" approach to the game and have hit a bit of a wall at Plat. I think I need to do more than the standard WoL 4gate (especially since you can't warp in on the high ground) and was thinking of doing 4gate+WP for PvT,PvP and 4gate with 2gases for PvT,PvZ. My two questions going into this are: 1) When do you make your second gas and mothership core when you 4gate with two gases (I can't even find a WoL guide that tells me when to make the second gas and how to adapt the build for it)? 2) When do you make your mothership core when doing a 4gate+WP build? Does the WoL build need to be adapted in any other way in response to the mothership core getting thrown into the game? 3) Should I just not make a mothership core when doing a 4gate off of 2 gases or a 4gate+WP? I've been searching for these answers for a while now, but just can't find them. I've tried to refine the way I do the 4 gate + warp prism in hots a couple of weeks ago. Instead of going zealot stalker stalker and grabbing a single gas, I just get double gas earlier and 2 probes in each gas. This makes it easy to get a msc without delaying your robo or anything else. Aside from that, I tend to chrono probes more to compensate for the higher probe count required + the fact that I get a msc out, if there is any early reaper I leave a stalker behind after adding my extra gateways. I find the msc helpful actually, you can time warp their ramp and have fun. With the extra gas, you can also tweak this strategy to include sentries and force field their ramp if you wish, but that's probably worse than a simple time warp and more units... unless you skip the msc, but I find time warp very useful. Send zealots to his scv or techlab or whatever, and warp in stalkers for shoot stuff that tries to go up the ramp. | ||
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LardMaster
United Kingdom123 Posts
On June 29 2013 02:12 shivver wrote: Teoita can you give me the list of all ins you do or can you direct me to the post you made where you listed them? I get sick and tired of building probes all the time man lol, I need something more than +2 blink etc. Obviously I'm not Teoita, but I'd suggest checking out proleague vods (free on youtube) as there are lots of protoss players, and if you're watching MLG this weekend there's bound to be some sick builds to copy, and no doubt there will be discussion on here about them. Also every replay from the ATC was recently released (there's a post on TL about it) and there are also bound to be some builds there for you to check out. Off the top of my head also: PvT: - 4 gate blink allin - Hardcore proxy Oracle (like in their base at 5:12 or something ludicrous) with 3 gate follow up - Void ray bust - 2 base immortal bust - 4 gate warp prism or with proxy robo immortal PvZ: - 2 immortal 2 colossus allin - Immortal sentry allin - 7 gate +1 zealot allin - Zealot/archon allin - Void ray/immortal allin - 4 gate can catch some zergs off guard who assume a 1 gate FE - DT with a gateway follow up allin is a dirty but good strategy with good execution - A nice favourite of mine is proxy 2 gate, as because zerg doesn't see a scouting probe, they hatch-first assuming a 1 gate FE and pretty much auto-lose PvP: - 1 base blink - 1 base DT - Cannon rush is always potent - 2 base chargelot archon can be strong - 2 base blink allin can be strong against stargate expand openers Those are just a few I can think of right now, hope I helped. | ||
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.kv
United States2332 Posts
On June 29 2013 00:00 See.Blue wrote: I haven't played any sc2 much since WoL (plat level). What are some good ladder builds (non-allin, one for each matchup) to look into practicing to get back into playing? :D Read the OP On June 29 2013 01:28 KingAlphard wrote: PvT Is it ok to get both forge and robo immediately after the nexus and 2nd gas? Is it ok to blindly build one cannon per mineral line at 7-8 minutes to defend from hellbat (or bio) drops? PvP After a dt expand, what is the best transition (depending on what my opponent is doing)? When should I build void rays? If you want to go early forge, I think it's better to go with a Stargate/Oracle just to scout, gain map control and have the possibility of doing damage in Terran's main...however I haven't really experienced early forge with a robo especially with the recent warp prism buff but overall it's safe due to the mothership...the only thing I would be worried about is like double rax reactor reaper cheese It's ok to blindly build a cannon per mineral line as it not only helps defend those drops but also helps later on in the game against the typical bio medivac drops...you will be low on units so you have to be pretty decisive on where and when to commit your photon overcharge if you have to Usually for DT expand, Protoss players go for Robo because of detection (unless you are willing to take chances against a DT vs. DT scenario) and just go for the immortal/archon/chargelot composition. But yeah if you want to take chances, you can switch to Stargate play as the common techpath against DT is robo. But with the warp prism buff, the Robo tech just strengthens the potential of your DTs so I would prefer Robo. (Sorry if this is confusing lol) I'm not particularly a fan of void rays in PvP anymore. Storm/archon combination just absolutely destroys void rays pretty fast. I will say though in a scrappy game where both players are low econ, the player with like 4+ void rays is ahead. Another way where Void rays can win is if you proxy 3 stargates (late game) and make like 10+ void rays and roll in with your ground army. If that's not scouted, you should pretty much win. But other than that, Void rays are nonexistent in the Korean scene in the PvP matchup for a reason | ||
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Fenneth
Australia354 Posts
On June 28 2013 03:08 Teoita wrote: 14/14 completes speed at 5:15 at the earliest afaik, and you should be able to get a wall up in time by then with most builds. Once your wall is up his silly ling allin crap should fail miserably. If you want to play super safe you can probe scout and delay it; i personally like to core scout if i want to be safe (say i'm playing a BoX or whatever). Also you could cut probes to get the wall up but as i said it shouldn't be necessary. I know how to make a wall, the problem is knowing that I need to. Modern gateway expand builds tend to be tight enough that probe scouting screws it up pretty badly, and if you watch pro level gateway expands you'll see they almost all have their wall wide open with no scouting information to speak of at 5:15. I'm wondering what exactly I'm missing here. | ||
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LardMaster
United Kingdom123 Posts
On June 29 2013 01:28 KingAlphard wrote: PvT Is it ok to get both forge and robo immediately after the nexus and 2nd gas? Is it ok to blindly build one cannon per mineral line at 7-8 minutes to defend from hellbat (or bio) drops? PvP After a dt expand, what is the best transition (depending on what my opponent is doing)? When should I build void rays? 1. Yes, MSC makes even greedy 1 gate FEs really quite safe as long as you know when to use nexus cannon and when not to; you don't want to use it against something small and then not have it ready for the bigger push that comes after. 2. Yes, it's great against drops that could come around this time and is good preparation for the late game. Especially if you are going 2 base templar, you will most likely have the extra minerals. 3. I like to go robo and get a solid ground composition as air is declining in PvP, however as your opponent will most likely go robo in response to your DTs, stargate can be a good follow up for fast void ray vs immortals and tempest vs colossus. Without a robo you will die to opposing DTs though, and blink timings can fuck you up without immortals. 4. Never really. Apart from timings such as the one mentioned above, void rays just aren't very good. They are countered hard by storm in a straight up fight, and the anti-colossus role they used to fill is now better done by tempests, which are replacing voids in the PvP meta. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On June 29 2013 02:12 shivver wrote: Teoita can you give me the list of all ins you do or can you direct me to the post you made where you listed them? I get sick and tired of building probes all the time man lol, I need something more than +2 blink etc. PvZ: mantrain, soultrain, tastless build 1.0, tasteless build 2.0 (basically 4gate pressure into dt into blink or zealot archon depending on what i feel like off both ffe and gateway fe), 6gate off gateway fe, magic johnson PvT: proxy oracle into 4gate, 4gate warp prism, one base blink/obs (i like obs better than msc atm), immortal bust, 6gate, stats' immortal/archon timing (not really allin but worth mentioning). I use the immortal bust and 6gate only as a metagame thingy in BoX series generally, it tends to end horribly on ladder lol. PvP: none pre planned off one base, but i like to do various 2base immortal/blink/charge/archon timings if i'm ahead from the early game (say i kill a bunch of probes with dt expand or i hold off a blink timing while fast expanding)/ | ||
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Mezox
Sweden6 Posts
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Giftmacher
Sweden6 Posts
I am a bit lost in PvP at this moment, playing at mid-masters level with a 42% ratio against protoss. I used to do Hwangsins 5 stalker/stargate build and it worked ok for a while but then something happened and I stepped away from that build. Now I've tried to play partings latest blink build but its not working very well for me, I dont think I exactly understand how your suppose to play it cause I end up in a situation where i can't punish nor survive various builds. These are the builds that I end up loosing too, this could be evidence for my terrible control and thus maybe I should play a more passive/safe expand build? 1. 4 sentries/MSC fast expand build, can I kill this with the blink timing? Also this build seamed pretty damn good, is it around on TL? 2. Lost to a friggin stargate/phoenix expand build who got Voidrays/Immortals behind it(!) 3. 5:45 classic 4 gate in your face up the ramp, I guess you have to be down the ramp sniping the probe or its gg? 4. 5 stalker pressure with 3 gates usually ends up killing me or a lot of probes I am a pretty slow player so maybe I should look for a safe expand build, any tips on that? Also Parting is not human so maybe this build is simply too demanding for avarage joes like me? :D Happy for any advice on builds in PvP | ||
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Watercrystal
58 Posts
On June 29 2013 01:28 KingAlphard wrote: PvT Is it ok to get both forge and robo immediately after the nexus and 2nd gas? Is it ok to blindly build one cannon per mineral line at 7-8 minutes to defend from hellbat (or bio) drops? PvP After a dt expand, what is the best transition (depending on what my opponent is doing)? When should I build void rays? 1) yes 2) yes 3) Usually chagelot archon or blink is fine vs. everything, aslong as he doesnt get critical mass of Colossi/VR (jut should push as soon as possible!) 4) Generally ASAP, but macke sure to have enough colossi to defend an all in by him at all times. Also, Tempests are usuall good too  | ||
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Henk
Netherlands578 Posts
On June 29 2013 07:02 Mezox wrote: In PvP I have met some people who just make lots of pylons in your base under your nose (eventually one completes even if you pull probes) and then just spam cannons till one completes. I feel stupid to lose to that stuff. How do I respond? /Diamond protoss I believe 3 probes out-dps a cannon before it's able to complete, so just pull 3 per cannon, and use one probe to attack his cannon-building probe and continue mining with the rest. Don't pull everything, or you won't have enough minerals to produce units. | ||
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mamaDrone
Sweden43 Posts
On June 29 2013 20:50 Giftmacher wrote: Hi I am a bit lost in PvP at this moment, playing at mid-masters level with a 42% ratio against protoss. I used to do Hwangsins 5 stalker/stargate build and it worked ok for a while but then something happened and I stepped away from that build. Now I've tried to play partings latest blink build but its not working very well for me, I dont think I exactly understand how your suppose to play it cause I end up in a situation where i can't punish nor survive various builds. These are the builds that I end up loosing too, this could be evidence for my terrible control and thus maybe I should play a more passive/safe expand build? 1. 4 sentries/MSC fast expand build, can I kill this with the blink timing? Also this build seamed pretty damn good, is it around on TL? 2. Lost to a friggin stargate/phoenix expand build who got Voidrays/Immortals behind it(!) 3. 5:45 classic 4 gate in your face up the ramp, I guess you have to be down the ramp sniping the probe or its gg? 4. 5 stalker pressure with 3 gates usually ends up killing me or a lot of probes I am a pretty slow player so maybe I should look for a safe expand build, any tips on that? Also Parting is not human so maybe this build is simply too demanding for avarage joes like me? :D Happy for any advice on builds in PvP I'm in a similar situation as you. My PvP is horrible (we have a similar w/l ratio). When HotS came out I almost always opened DTs followed by an expand and then I worked from there. People were very keen on opening Void Rays back then and it worked out amazingly well. Nowadays however all people do is one base all-ins. I've played 170+ games so far this season, and a little over 30% of them has been versus Protoss, and I can tell you - the number of games I've played that has been macro oriented and turned out in two bases or more can easily be counted on one hand. I have recently started playing with States sentry expand build and in custom games (online cups, practice matches, clan wars etc) it's been pretty effective. You will have early hallucinations for scouting due to early sentries and you put down your Robo (or Stargate if you choose to opt for that) as the next building after you've put down your natural Nexus. You should have 2 Immortals/Void Rays (if you keep chrono boosting) + Nexus Cannon by the time regular blink play hits (which seem to be the most common opener nowadays). Thread of States sentry expand build (You can also find it on Day9s youtube channel as he covered it in his 589th? daily) - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=414216 I've said it before and I'll say it again - it's hard to pinpoint what and where things are going wrong without replays but I assume you aren't on top of your scouting? | ||
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LardMaster
United Kingdom123 Posts
On June 29 2013 21:12 Henk wrote: I believe 3 probes out-dps a cannon before it's able to complete, so just pull 3 per cannon, and use one probe to attack his cannon-building probe and continue mining with the rest. Don't pull everything, or you won't have enough minerals to produce units. This is pretty much the thing to do, make sure you have a probe attacking their probe at all times, and the most important thing is to not only stop his cannons going up, but also to make sure to keep mining decently to be able to counterattack/do something els after you hold off the rush; if you pull everything you won't have any minerals to do a follow-up fast enough. Don't attack pylons if there are cannons building, unless 1 pylon is powering 34872394874 cannons, because cannons have less health and build slower, making them much easier to pick off. | ||
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Giftmacher
Sweden6 Posts
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lpunatic
235 Posts
On June 29 2013 07:02 Mezox wrote: In PvP I have met some people who just make lots of pylons in your base under your nose (eventually one completes even if you pull probes) and then just spam cannons till one completes. I feel stupid to lose to that stuff. How do I respond? /Diamond protoss I can't tell you a perfect response, but you should put 1-2 probes on their probe at all timed and make killing it a priority (i.e, try to nab it with multiple probes whenever it comes close enough). They might send a backup, but this at least slows down their construction a lot. Besides that, once cannons start going up, prioritise killing cannons over killing pylons as they're more expensive and have less health, and don't be afraid to pull a lot of probes. I also often place pylons behind my mineral line in these situations to prevent them from walling in convenient locations. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
The thing is, I'd rather steal a refined builds since I'm not too familiar with this style, or at the very least take a look at high level players doing it. Do you guys know any pro vods of this? | ||
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
and then theres many acer team story cup replays of crank and alicia | ||
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Xtreme94
Malaysia282 Posts
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Mackem
United Kingdom470 Posts
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