EPTAlso, the optimal spots for cannon rushing are map dependant. We had screenshots for the WoL maps, afaik the most popular one in HotS is the natural on Bel'shir Vestige (watch sos in code s for example).
The HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 128
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
Also, the optimal spots for cannon rushing are map dependant. We had screenshots for the WoL maps, afaik the most popular one in HotS is the natural on Bel'shir Vestige (watch sos in code s for example). | ||
Olli
Austria24422 Posts
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rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
On June 28 2013 00:51 Teoita wrote: I dont have words to comment on how idiotic "one cannon contain is", sorry. Also, the optimal spots for cannon rushing are map dependant. We had screenshots for the WoL maps, afaik the most popular one in HotS is the natural on Bel'shir Vestige (watch sos in code s for example). Incontrol did it for quite some time. Also, it is kind of worth it, you build a pylon to block the expansion and if Zerg doesn't have 2 Drones down there the Cannon will finish and Zerg will have to delay the third (at his natural) for quite some time. However I think if Zerg does everything right you are a little behind and IF he manages to slip Lings by and built an earlier pool (like 13) you can just die to a counter attack (if Zerg got 6 Lings, enough will make it to your base where your defensive cannon will be delayed), But that's a lot of ifs. Still I don't feel like it should be anyone's standart opening. Also, Gateway openings are way cooler in PvZ right now. | ||
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Fenneth
Australia354 Posts
I guess the top Protosses are using the lack of such builds in the pro metagame to get away with that shit, but how should I modify the build for ladder? Gateway/Core wall at main ramp? Probe scout? (this messes up the build fairly badly  ) | ||
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playa
United States1284 Posts
On June 28 2013 01:34 rEalGuapo wrote: Incontrol did it for quite some time. Also, it is kind of worth it, you build a pylon to block the expansion and if Zerg doesn't have 2 Drones down there the Cannon will finish and Zerg will have to delay the third (at his natural) for quite some time. However I think if Zerg does everything right you are a little behind and IF he manages to slip Lings by and built an earlier pool (like 13) you can just die to a counter attack (if Zerg got 6 Lings, enough will make it to your base where your defensive cannon will be delayed), But that's a lot of ifs. Still I don't feel like it should be anyone's standart opening. Also, Gateway openings are way cooler in PvZ right now. I'm playing it like a gateway expand, but I'm simply making the forge before gateway. I like to tech fast, so if I'm not going to have the units to contest a third, I have to find a way to delay it. It's a pretty cheap way of doing so, figuring I need the pylon at that time and I'd like to have a cannon, anyways. Given that I'm playing it like a gateway expand, a counter attack is something you'd never lose to. And, since the contain provides perfect scouting, if they can't catch you off guard then it's hard for them to do much of anything. The main issue seems to be trying to create a situation where you can't come out too far behind. In other words, they pull drones to stop your cannon going up. How far away does your cannon need to be or how many do you need to make (then cancel) for their lost mining time to cause you to be somewhat indifferent to whether your cannon went up or not? Also, what do you do against someone that already has a drone outside the contain or simply sends a few units along with a drone (or sends 2 drones), so they can expand? Do you try to cannon that? It's a strat that might not be inherently strong, but the typical responses you see kinda make it a free win, really. Players are typically making way too many lings and/or they're staying on 2 base for way too long. I was just surprised to hear other players are attempting this. Even if they were, I'd figure they would try making more than 1 cannon. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
On June 28 2013 02:56 Fenneth wrote: When I watch top Protosses gateway expanding PvZ, they get away with insanely greedy builds and no scouting. If I try to do anything remotely similar I often end up getting punished by 13gas/12pool or 14/14, any kind of quick speedling build and I don't believe I have any chance to defend. I guess the top Protosses are using the lack of such builds in the pro metagame to get away with that shit, but how should I modify the build for ladder? Gateway/Core wall at main ramp? Probe scout? (this messes up the build fairly badly )14/14 completes speed at 5:15 at the earliest afaik, and you should be able to get a wall up in time by then with most builds. Once your wall is up his silly ling allin crap should fail miserably. If you want to play super safe you can probe scout and delay it; i personally like to core scout if i want to be safe (say i'm playing a BoX or whatever). Also you could cut probes to get the wall up but as i said it shouldn't be necessary. edit: playa, what do you mean "I play it like a gate expand?" You really shouldnt go forge/pylon block/gate/gasses and then gateway expand from there. Pylon blocking while gateway expanding is fine though, i've actually won a few games where i was able to pylon block his nat succesfully with my third pylon doing a gateway expand, forced tons of lings by doing a zealot/zealot/stalker/msc poke at his "third" and defending his shitty panic baneling bust. | ||
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playa
United States1284 Posts
On June 28 2013 03:08 Teoita wrote: 14/14 completes speed at 5:15 at the earliest afaik, and you should be able to get a wall up in time by then with many builds. Once your wall is up his silly ling allin crap should fail miserably. If you want to play super safe you can probe scout and delay it; i personally like to core scout if i want to be safe (say i'm playing a BoX or whatever). edit: playa, what do you mean "I play it like a gate expand?" You really shouldnt go forge/pylon block/gate/gasses and then gateway expand from there. Pylon blocking while gateway expanding is fine though, i've actually won a few games where i was able to pylon block his nat succesfully with my third pylon doing a gateway expand, forced tons of lings by doing a zealot/zealot/stalker/msc poke at his "third" and defending his shitty panic baneling bust. A lot of games, I just go plyon at their choke, make 1 cannon, then I go gateway. I'll take 2 gases and either expand or make my core before expanding. Since I like to tech, I don't want to wall my nat with gateways. I'll have my ramp walled off (gateway, core, zealot) and I'll do the cannon protected by gateway and 2 pylons by my nexus. You're going to want to have a mothership core and to get 100 energy as fast as possible to be 100% safe. Given that the typical response is very sup-optimal, I'm ending up in a way better spot than if I were to simply gateway expand. And, due to my tech being faster than a expo before gate build, I'm able to take a very fast third to make up for a slightly later natural, and I'm able to harass them at the same time. I don't know what to think since I'm practicing 1 mu at a time (p vs z atm), which is making my MMR lower than it should be. Beating players I should beat, but it feels easier than if I were to gateway expand, that's for sure. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
2) By doing that you neither have the fast wg, nor the faster econ, tech and upgrades of FFE. You are just hoping he reacts incorrectly; if he just pulls drones and kills your low ground pylon before the cannon is up you are miles behind. Also, as usual, this thread is about bridging the gap between proven pro level strategies and the average player as written the OP. Whatever ladder experience we have isn't nearly as relevant, and backing up a statement just by going "i do thing x in ladder and it works great" isn't exactly helpful posting. | ||
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
But yeah agree with everything you say, your build just doesnt seem to make sense playa, slower tech, worse eco, and walls with two pylons in it arent optimal either. | ||
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playa
United States1284 Posts
On June 28 2013 03:33 Teoita wrote: 1) The advantage of gateway expand isnt faster tech (at all), but faster warpgate and (arguably) a more unpredictable style. FFE actually tends to get tech up faster (between 5:30 and 6:15 ish in HotS builds), which most gateway expands can't match. 2) By doing that you neither have the fast wg, nor the faster econ, tech and upgrades of FFE. You are just hoping he reacts incorrectly; if he just pulls drones and kills your low ground pylon before the cannon is up you are miles behind. Also, as usual, this thread is about bridging the gap between proven pro level strategies and the average player as written the OP. Whatever ladder experience we have isn't nearly as relevant, and backing up a statement just by going "i do thing x in ladder and it works great" isn't exactly helpful posting. As someone that loves to open dts and go all tech routes, gateway expanding is superior. I couldn't care less about faster warp gate. The normal gateway expand has the burden of pretty much needing to kill their third. If you can delay their third while also being able to take a fast third, yourself, then the burden is completely on them to force the issue. While it's true that there's an element of hoping they react incorrectly, but I think most Toss builds have that element to it. Most players aren't solid enough, anyways, to rely solely on themselves. It is something to be explored and try to mitigate that element though. For instance, if you know they're aware of the pylon at their choke, then you might have to also set up a cannon behind their mineral line. It's dicey. More times than not, I have still won when not being able to get a cannon up (I lost a long game to Killer when I couldn't get it up. Only one that really comes to my mind). So the question then becomes is it because they're losing sufficient mining time or is it because I'm playing players I'm a little bit better than? I originally did bring it up out of curiosities sake. If other people are doing it, perhaps a pro is doing it or others have replays. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
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jwe
Sweden24 Posts
So what kinds of builds (you don't need to write down the BO's, it's against the threadrules) should I be able to pull of in the tournament? This is some builds I know, and from time to time Use.. PvP: PartinG Blink-build, 4 Min Expand into Robo, Fastest DT-Rush, Proxy 2-gate, 4-Gate, 4-Gate with Stargate (Phoenix). PvZ: Naniwa 4-gate, 2/2/2, FFE into fast 3rd, Partings WoL Soultrain with slightly changes (Added MSC). PvT: Proxy Oracle, Tails DT-Drop, Swarmstyle (fast upgrades, Chargelots, Archons, HT's), Z/S/MSC-rush, Collosus Double forge push on 2-base, 2-Base Immortalbust And then a last question. When do you expand in PvP, when do you take the 3rd? I don't mean what minute because it differs of course, I mean more like.. when do you feel you can do it safely? As now, my PvP macro is really bad. I feel that I will lose my 3rd if I expand... I'm low/mid Master EU btw. | ||
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
On June 28 2013 04:11 Teoita wrote: There's a difference between gateway/tech into expand and gateway/expand into tech though...i'm pretty sure sos' build for instance was the first one. I'm not completely sure, but i wouldn't be surprised if it was the latter. sOs loves his super fast tech after a gateway expand, particular his 4:35 stargate build after nexus which is an incredibly awesome build. Trap did a similar build in OSL vs Symbol and Naniwa beat Suppy game 2 with a very similar build as well at Dreamhack. Definitely a build to look out for. 5:45 dark shrine seems pretty damn fast, but it is believable considering how greedy sOs can be. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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S7EFEN
86 Posts
When playing T or Z I can poke about with slings or medivacs, etc I am banking larva or continuing to produce whereas with toss I've invested into tech (ie a stargate or dt shrine) then units from the tech (phoenix or DT) then I need another tech building and units from there and I end up with having to choose between upgrades, tech units, tech structures, idle gateways and units and I don't really like that. Am I thinking about toss wrong? Or should I switch to T? The ability to just take my main army and break it apart and have extremely efficient harass seems so much more interesting than having to completely commit to a separate tech path. | ||
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2xNoodle
United States201 Posts
1) When do you make your second gas and mothership core when you 4gate with two gases (I can't even find a WoL guide that tells me when to make the second gas and how to adapt the build for it)? 2) When do you make your mothership core when doing a 4gate+WP build? Does the WoL build need to be adapted in any other way in response to the mothership core getting thrown into the game? 3) Should I just not make a mothership core when doing a 4gate off of 2 gases or a 4gate+WP? I've been searching for these answers for a while now, but just can't find them. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
Also while i'm all for learning simple builds (read: often times allins) first, 4gating until diamond is probably excessive. If you want to start with all-ins, i'd go along the lines of 4gate phoenix or dt>4gate in pvp, oracle busts or 6gates pvt, gateway expand into 6gate pvz. | ||
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See.Blue
United States2673 Posts
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