|
On April 24 2013 20:00 loginn wrote:Hey guys, I'm starting to get really mad at ZvT. Can anyone care to tell me what i'm doing wrong here, cause i think I should have won this one, but Bio just beats any army comp I can make at that point in the game. http://drop.sc/327111Thanks. BTW I'm top 15 master if it matters to you.
Ok so the most obvious one is no creep. Thats just plain bad.
Very poor scouting and map presence, no reason not to have xel naga towers (or random lings around map). Also very poor overlord spread.
Army control was okish with lingbane but the use of Swarm Host was very bad sometimes you completely miss rally on locust or rally to bad direction. (I wouldnt recommend using them at all tbh)
You barely used Vipers even though u had alot of them. Also you need to add in infestors or ultras will be kited forever like they were.
EDIT: Also i noticed you miss alot of upgrades.
|
On April 24 2013 20:00 loginn wrote:Hey guys, I'm starting to get really mad at ZvT. Can anyone care to tell me what i'm doing wrong here, cause i think I should have won this one, but Bio just beats any army comp I can make at that point in the game. http://drop.sc/327111Thanks. BTW I'm top 15 master if it matters to you.
First things I notice are no creep spread and you haven't even scouted what he is doing after your initial drone scout. Out of the blue you notice his army coming by your overlord placement. His army is already halfway the map before you know it's coming.. When his army is walking away, why bother to attack it anyway? Your composition at the moment is far inferior and your upgrades are 20 seconds from being done.
Minute 13, you haven't even scouted if he has a third yes or no. Also why not standardly in your games have an overlord there and vomit creep on it the second you can. A burrowed ling is also very useful. You also didn't start 2-2 straight away, while you are floating minerals and gas.
From this point minute 16 i'm going to x8 speed. There is no creep spread (which is SO important versus terran). No overlords in the top and bottom left so you dont see a drop coming. You are lucky that terran is terrible at his upgrades, I mean only 1-1 at minute 16? A better masters terran with a upgrade advantage would already tore you apart.
Slow banelings at 17:37, wobbling after the terran army.
No overseer at 17:50 encounter and you let your lings attack them one by one instead of running your lings in the bio army (how are the baneligns supposed to hit?)
Swarm hosts while you have 2-2 on melee?
Losing soooooo much army on 21:00 due to mines again without overseer.
Sorry if I look like a huge prick with this post. I hope this will ease up your ZvT.
I've watched until 21:16. I think if you improve on the things above, the matchup will be a lot easier for you.
|
On April 24 2013 20:38 Veriol wrote:
Ok so the most obvious one is no creep. Thats just plain bad.
Very poor scouting and map presence, no reason not to have xel naga towers (or random lings around map). Also very poor overlord spread.
Army control was okish with lingbane but the use of Swarm Host was very bad sometimes you completely miss rally on locust or rally to bad direction. (I wouldnt recommend using them at all tbh)
You barely used Vipers even though u had alot of them. Also you need to add in infestors or ultras will be kited forever like they were.
EDIT: Also i noticed you miss alot of upgrades.
First things I notice are no creep spread and you haven't even scouted what he is doing after your initial drone scout. Out of the blue you notice his army coming by your overlord placement. His army is already halfway the map before you know it's coming.. When his army is walking away, why bother to attack it anyway? Your composition at the moment is far inferior and your upgrades are 20 seconds from being done.
Minute 13, you haven't even scouted if he has a third yes or no. Also why not standardly in your games have an overlord there and vomit creep on it the second you can. A burrowed ling is also very useful. You also didn't start 2-2 straight away, while you are floating minerals and gas.
From this point minute 16 i'm going to x8 speed. There is no creep spread (which is SO important versus terran). No overlords in the top and bottom left so you dont see a drop coming. You are lucky that terran is terrible at his upgrades, I mean only 1-1 at minute 16? A better masters terran with a upgrade advantage would already tore you apart.
Slow banelings at 17:37, wobbling after the terran army.
No overseer at 17:50 encounter and you let your lings attack them one by one instead of running your lings in the bio army (how are the baneligns supposed to hit?)
Swarm hosts while you have 2-2 on melee?
Losing soooooo much army on 21:00 due to mines again without overseer.
Sorry if I look like a huge prick with this post. I hope this will ease up your ZvT.
I've watched until 21:16. I think if you improve on the things above, the matchup will be a lot easier for you.
Hey,
Thanks, and don't worry about being a dick. I didn't get from bronze to master by refusing advices. Alright so creep spread and scouting are the major mistakes. I'll try to improve on that.
Cheers 
|
I'm a Platinum Zerg and I'm curious if what I'm doing in ZvZ stays viable into higher leagues.
I open with gasless 4 Queen into a fast +1 carapace before Zergling speed (inspired by MrBitter's Ling-Infestor opening in Blade's thread).
Doing this, I skip the Baneling Nest and early defensive Banelings (when possible). Once I've saturated two bases, I flood Zerglings to take map control, deny my opponent's third base and force defensive Banelings out of my opponent. In doing this, my Spire will be later, but, if I am successful at denying my opponent's third and establishing my own, I should always have a lead in Mutalisk wars. The drawback is that I have Mutalisks out later and my Spire upgrades begin later.
I haven't seen any pros use any style like this, possibly because it may have some exploitable timings. Does anyone Masters or higher have any experience with this sort of build? I've had a lot of success with it, but I don't want to work on and refine a style that doesn't really work. Any input would be appreciated.
|
On April 26 2013 23:21 TrippSC2 wrote:I'm a Platinum Zerg and I'm curious if what I'm doing in ZvZ stays viable into higher leagues. I open with gasless 4 Queen into a fast +1 carapace before Zergling speed (inspired by MrBitter's Ling-Infestor opening in Blade's thread). Doing this, I skip the Baneling Nest and early defensive Banelings (when possible). Once I've saturated two bases, I flood Zerglings to take map control, deny my opponent's third base and force defensive Banelings out of my opponent. In doing this, my Spire will be later, but, if I am successful at denying my opponent's third and establishing my own, I should always have a lead in Mutalisk wars. The drawback is that I have Mutalisks out later and my Spire upgrades begin later. I haven't seen any pros use any style like this, possibly because it may have some exploitable timings. Does anyone Masters or higher have any experience with this sort of build? I've had a lot of success with it, but I don't want to work on and refine a style that doesn't really work. Any input would be appreciated.
im only diamond but maybe i can help. what are you losing to? early aggression or muta wars?
|
On April 26 2013 23:21 TrippSC2 wrote:I'm a Platinum Zerg and I'm curious if what I'm doing in ZvZ stays viable into higher leagues. I open with gasless 4 Queen into a fast +1 carapace before Zergling speed (inspired by MrBitter's Ling-Infestor opening in Blade's thread). Doing this, I skip the Baneling Nest and early defensive Banelings (when possible). Once I've saturated two bases, I flood Zerglings to take map control, deny my opponent's third base and force defensive Banelings out of my opponent. In doing this, my Spire will be later, but, if I am successful at denying my opponent's third and establishing my own, I should always have a lead in Mutalisk wars. The drawback is that I have Mutalisks out later and my Spire upgrades begin later. I haven't seen any pros use any style like this, possibly because it may have some exploitable timings. Does anyone Masters or higher have any experience with this sort of build? I've had a lot of success with it, but I don't want to work on and refine a style that doesn't really work. Any input would be appreciated.
You can't really punish any kind of greedy play until speed and carapace finishes. It's also probably something that will work better on certain maps. Newkirk and planet S would be better suited for it than something like korhal city or bel'shir vestige. Not liking gasless zvz on akilon either.
|
On April 26 2013 23:21 TrippSC2 wrote:I'm a Platinum Zerg and I'm curious if what I'm doing in ZvZ stays viable into higher leagues. I open with gasless 4 Queen into a fast +1 carapace before Zergling speed (inspired by MrBitter's Ling-Infestor opening in Blade's thread). Doing this, I skip the Baneling Nest and early defensive Banelings (when possible). Once I've saturated two bases, I flood Zerglings to take map control, deny my opponent's third base and force defensive Banelings out of my opponent. In doing this, my Spire will be later, but, if I am successful at denying my opponent's third and establishing my own, I should always have a lead in Mutalisk wars. The drawback is that I have Mutalisks out later and my Spire upgrades begin later. I haven't seen any pros use any style like this, possibly because it may have some exploitable timings. Does anyone Masters or higher have any experience with this sort of build? I've had a lot of success with it, but I don't want to work on and refine a style that doesn't really work. Any input would be appreciated.
I use a style similar to this where you go for map control around 8 to 9:30 and exploit that to put yourself in a good position for the rest of the game. This is definitely not something that will stop working as your opponents get better. However you will have to adapt it to fit your opponent. For instance at some point you will not be able to deny their third even with +1 armor. They will make enough banelings to keep it. The response to this is simple though. You make enough zerglings to retain map control and don't lose them while you drone up your own third and put down spores. Because I often can't kill his third I will never get ahead in muta count so I go for infestors instead and upgraded zerglings into ultra/hydra to finish the game.
Here's a replay if you're interested. http://drop.sc/327675
Things I've found to be important.
Banelings nest before speed and start +1 armor after speed.
Always check their gas timing with your first 2 lings if they get it early they are probably going to be aggressive.
Put your third down as soon as you get 16 mining on your natural or 8 if you feel he's teching really fast. This way it will be up in time for spores to be placed.
After your third expansion is down and you have 20ish lings you have to drone a lot. This is your time to gain an advantage. Don't lose your lings foolishly or you can't drone. This time will make or break your game.
Make sure spores go down by 9:30 at the latest assuming his spire hasn't been delayed.
You don't want to tech to quickly or gas to quickly. Your economy will suffer for it.
If you do it right spore/ling will hold until your infestors come out. And if you threaten counter attacks he may not even leave his base with his mutas.
Always get burrow! Zerglings with adrenal glands and burrow are often the best way to be aggressive mid to late game when you don't have air control.
|
On April 26 2013 23:31 Empedocles wrote:
im only diamond but maybe i can help. what are you losing to? early aggression or muta wars?
I'm not really having a lot of problems with it. Very heavy Baneling attacks seemed to be a problem for a time, but having 4 queens I can evac my drones to the main and defend the ramp and hatch with Queens and Spines. I nearly always have the edge in Muta wars if the game gets that far.
On April 27 2013 00:15 MstrJinbo wrote:
You can't really punish any kind of greedy play until speed and carapace finishes. It's also probably something that will work better on certain maps. Newkirk and planet S would be better suited for it than something like korhal city or bel'shir vestige. Not liking gasless zvz on akilon either.
It would kind of depend on type of greed that you're talking about, I guess. With my current timings I get both upgrades just after 8:15. I'm sure this could be improved and refined. I haven't seen a ZvZ build that has its greed pay off by that time yet, but it may just not be something I'm aware of.
As for maps, really the distance between natural and main seems to be the defining characteristic. I'm pretty sure it's not viable at all Bel'shir Vestige due to this fact, because Queens and Spines can't be used to defend the natural from Zergling/Baneling. The other maps it's less effective, but still viable.
EDIT: You're also right about Korhal City. That ramp can't be blocked with 2 Queens.
|
On April 27 2013 00:42 TrippSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2013 23:31 Empedocles wrote:
im only diamond but maybe i can help. what are you losing to? early aggression or muta wars? I'm not really having a lot of problems with it. Very heavy Baneling attacks seemed to be a problem for a time, but having 4 queens I can evac my drones to the main and defend the ramp and hatch with Queens and Spines. I nearly always have the edge in Muta wars if the game gets that far. Show nested quote +On April 27 2013 00:15 MstrJinbo wrote:
You can't really punish any kind of greedy play until speed and carapace finishes. It's also probably something that will work better on certain maps. Newkirk and planet S would be better suited for it than something like korhal city or bel'shir vestige. Not liking gasless zvz on akilon either. It would kind of depend on type of greed that you're talking about, I guess. With my current timings I get both upgrades just after 8:15. I'm sure this could be improved and refined. I haven't seen a ZvZ build that has its greed pay off by that time yet, but it may just not be something I'm aware of. As for maps, really the distance between natural and main seems to be the defining characteristic. I'm pretty sure it's not viable at all Bel'shir Vestige due to this fact, because Queens and Spines can't be used to defend the natural from Zergling/Baneling. The other maps it's less effective, but still viable. EDIT: You're also right about Korhal City. That ramp can't be blocked with 2 Queens.
Stuff like cutting spine and zerglings and delaying baneling nest. Most of them will try to take the early third and you won't necessarily be able to stop them. Despite your exeriences, in reality Most of the time you won't kill the third. On the other side, you can cut corners as well by delaying the third and fourth queen and spines. It's possible but if requires pretty good reads and if you mess up you are a lot more vulnerable to Allins.
I really need to try gasless ZvZ more, I know they work they are just a little difficult to consistently get past the early game when compared to defensive banes. Problem is that all the maps are really good for the gasless 4 queen are also really good for defensive baneling.
|
On April 27 2013 00:42 TrippSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2013 23:31 Empedocles wrote:
im only diamond but maybe i can help. what are you losing to? early aggression or muta wars? I'm not really having a lot of problems with it. Very heavy Baneling attacks seemed to be a problem for a time, but having 4 queens I can evac my drones to the main and defend the ramp and hatch with Queens and Spines. I nearly always have the edge in Muta wars if the game gets that far.
This is what I was most curious about when I read your description. It seems like there's a really bad timing right as your opponent's speed and baneling nest are finished. I feel like they could actually take down your nat on most maps if they realized you'd rushed carapace.
I think it's a fantastic build for Neo Planet S, though.
|
why does the zerg help me thread not have a bunch of build at the front page like the terran adn protoss one??
|
Can anyone point me in the right direction to a thread and/or explain how to play standard ZvP with swarmhost/hydra transitioning into viper/hydra/ultra late game. ZvP is the only matchup where I really don't really have a set style figured out yet. Specifically, I'm not sure on gas timings and whether to build swarm host or hydra first after lair. Top 25 masters, btw, so I'm not completely retarded, lol.
|
On April 27 2013 02:24 Uhh Negative wrote:
Can anyone point me in the right direction to a thread and/or explain how to play standard ZvP with swarmhost/hydra transitioning into viper/hydra/ultra late game. ZvP is the only matchup where I really don't really have a set style figured out yet. Specifically, I'm not sure on gas timings and whether to build swarm host or hydra first after lair. Top 25 masters, btw, so I'm not completely retarded, lol.
Here you go
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=408919
|
Hello,
ZvP : I want to try various styles early/midgame. Actualy I do nothing early but defense, then SH Hydras midgame. What are the other compositions which work ? Roach Ling ? Mass Roach ? Roach to Roach Hydra ? Any timings for prod / pressure ? Any advices ?
I want to practice lot of things to understand better the MU (I have 36% winrate in ZvP).
Thanks !
|
How can I defend 10 pool 10 gas with hatch 1st? From what I've heard the "pull all drones" 10 pool variant is the impossible one.
|
On April 27 2013 02:46 ApocAlypsE007 wrote:
How can I defend 10 pool 10 gas with hatch 1st? From what I've heard the "pull all drones" 10 pool variant is the impossible one.
Depends, are they going 10 pool baneling or speedling?
|
You mean banelings with slow lings? I dont remember playing vs that (maybe because I play Zerg for only about 2 months). I mean the speedling first variation.
|
With 10 pool speedling, you'll have to cancel your hatchery and mass lings. Fight on the ramp, where having speed doesn't make a difference. While doing this, get speed yourself.
|
ZvZ-
I always go 15 pool 16 hatch.. I'm drone scouting too.
If I scout a pool/gas build , no expo, and see lings incoming, am I supposed to cancel my nat? or let it finish and hopefully defend.
I tried leaving it up, but he took it out eventually. Next time i saw this, I cancelled, and held, but he got mutas out faster as he safely exop'd. Then I was behind the whole game and eventually died.
|
On April 27 2013 11:29 JohnJohnson wrote:
ZvZ-
I always go 15 pool 16 hatch.. I'm drone scouting too.
If I scout a pool/gas build , no expo, and see lings incoming, am I supposed to cancel my nat? or let it finish and hopefully defend.
I tried leaving it up, but he took it out eventually. Next time i saw this, I cancelled, and held, but he got mutas out faster as he safely exop'd. Then I was behind the whole game and eventually died.
I'm mid/high diamond so I may not be a hundred percent correct, but from the games I have played where this has happened this is what I have learned:
Canceling the hatchery is the same as losing it from what I have seen. I usually do all I can to defend my natural, if I see 1 base play I make as few drones as I can and build enough lings to defend get fast banelings and or speed, depends on which you prefer. Pull drones if you need but do your best not to lose to many. If you hold with minimal drone loss, you should be at least even with your opponent.
The biggest thing to check is if they are continuing ling production or droning with your overlords. This is crucial because the follow up attack can kill you if you try to drone behind it. I have lost to the second attack more times than you can imagine.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
