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I'm currently in high diamond looking to get promoted and I'm struggling with ZvP badly at the moment.
My latest ZvP loss on Bel'shir Vestige http://drop.sc/325805 the protoss went zealot/void ray and when I initially moved out (too early? I don't know) zealot, collosus, voidray and I got rolled. With my build I got some early lings and roaches up because I usually die to gateway all-ins and then went into hydras when I saw the stargates and the void rays melted them. Now with better scouting I could probably determine earlier whether it's stargate play and then should I just avoid roaches all together?
If the Protoss goes for early void rays should I be looking to put on more early pressure with lings or could it be better to take a quick fourth and go for mass muta and corruptors if they respond with Pheonix?
I have very little experience going into swarm hosts and I'm not really sure about using them on maps like Belshir Vestige where it's difficult to split the map, I'm still waiting to experiment on maps like Newkirk and try the style Catz uses with swarm host, hydra, viper and mass static defense. Also is there a guide for this style, I can't seem to find one.
Thanks for any help.
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In ZvZ, if i see that my opponent does not have a hatch and is going for some kind of early pool play, should i cancel the natural hatch? My build is 15pool 15gas 17gas. (Please no discussions on the build)
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On April 21 2013 06:51 Asolmanx wrote:
In ZvZ, if i see that my opponent does not have a hatch and is going for some kind of early pool play, should i cancel the natural hatch? My build is 15pool 15gas 17gas. (Please no discussions on the build)
Yes , but if you do then you are going to be so far behind regardless because if he opens speedling baneling, and you open 15pool 15hatch, then you will just be over ran easily before you can get up enough units to not die, and your hatchery won't be done to make spine crawlers, I don't ever like to open 15pool 15hatch in ZvZ tbh.
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On April 21 2013 06:55 GGzerG wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 06:51 Asolmanx wrote:
In ZvZ, if i see that my opponent does not have a hatch and is going for some kind of early pool play, should i cancel the natural hatch? My build is 15pool 15gas 17gas. (Please no discussions on the build) Yes , but if you do then you are going to be so far behind regardless because if he opens speedling baneling, and you open 15pool 15hatch, then you will just be over ran easily before you can get up enough units to not die, and your hatchery won't be done to make spine crawlers, I don't ever like to open 15pool 15hatch in ZvZ tbh.
Are you saying that it is easier to defend a early pool build with gas follow up (speedlings, banes or both) with a 15 hatch rather than a 15 pool then hatch? Can you explain a little bit?
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Gold here.
How do I defend against hellbat drops? Lings obviously get torched if they drop behind the mineral line, and roaches are too slow to defend effectively (he'll just lift and run). Spores don't help much, and I can't seem to get enough queens out reliably without putting a dent in my economy.
Help would be appreciated.
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On April 21 2013 09:06 FreedomCry wrote:
Gold here.
How do I defend against hellbat drops? Lings obviously get torched if they drop behind the mineral line, and roaches are too slow to defend effectively (he'll just lift and run). Spores don't help much, and I can't seem to get enough queens out reliably without putting a dent in my economy.
Help would be appreciated.
A Spore crawler, 1 or 2 Spines and targeting the medivac with your Queen is the easiest way. Having overlords in position to see incoming medivacs helps you prepare your lings or roaches to take care of it even quicker.
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On April 21 2013 06:51 Asolmanx wrote:
In ZvZ, if i see that my opponent does not have a hatch and is going for some kind of early pool play, should i cancel the natural hatch? My build is 15pool 15gas 17gas. (Please no discussions on the build)
When exactly are you putting that natural hatch ? Cauz with double gas, you can easily scout for his expand before putting yours... Unless you scout the main first with your first overlord (which isn't really necessary to be honest...) ?
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United Kingdom10443 Posts
On April 21 2013 06:51 Asolmanx wrote:
In ZvZ, if i see that my opponent does not have a hatch and is going for some kind of early pool play, should i cancel the natural hatch? My build is 15pool 15gas 17gas. (Please no discussions on the build)
No don't cancel the hatchery
15p 15h 17g should defend a 10p fine he shouldn't go for the hatch because even if he does force a cancel he kills no drones and will be behind.
He could also be going for a speedling or speedling/baneling all in build, in which case rather than getting speed first when you mine your first 50gas get a baneling nest and you should have banes in time to defend. If you do hold the early pressure you will easily win because you have an extra hatchery worth of production.
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On April 21 2013 02:52 Jamerrz wrote:I'm currently in high diamond looking to get promoted and I'm struggling with ZvP badly at the moment. My latest ZvP loss on Bel'shir Vestige http://drop.sc/325805 the protoss went zealot/void ray and when I initially moved out (too early? I don't know) zealot, collosus, voidray and I got rolled. With my build I got some early lings and roaches up because I usually die to gateway all-ins and then went into hydras when I saw the stargates and the void rays melted them. Now with better scouting I could probably determine earlier whether it's stargate play and then should I just avoid roaches all together? If the Protoss goes for early void rays should I be looking to put on more early pressure with lings or could it be better to take a quick fourth and go for mass muta and corruptors if they respond with Pheonix? I have very little experience going into swarm hosts and I'm not really sure about using them on maps like Belshir Vestige where it's difficult to split the map, I'm still waiting to experiment on maps like Newkirk and try the style Catz uses with swarm host, hydra, viper and mass static defense. Also is there a guide for this style, I can't seem to find one. Thanks for any help.
Hey, masters zerg here. Just watched your replay and I'd say the two main problems for you were scouting and upgrades. You need WAY more creep spread, that would have allowed you to keep an eye on the army at all times and you could have harassed the 3rd with lings once you saw him on your creep.
Overlords should have been sacked a lot earlier, you had no idea what was going on and blindly made roaches/lings which were almost entirely wasted. Your move-out didn't work out because you didn't know what his army was, you hadn't scouted it. Engaging at a choke-point like that when Collosi are on the field is never gonna go well for Zerg. It would have made more sense to hang back, get your upgrades going and some more bases...you had complete map control while he was just making a 2-base army.
The last fight was a bit of a disaster losing those Vipers before they did anything, but I don't think you would have survived anyway. He was on 3-2 upgrades compared to your 2-1.
I wouldn't say there was a huge problem with your unit comp, I would definitely have had some infesters out but you could have held that push off by engaging it well the first time then rebuilding your army while he's still stuck on 2-bases. If you have full map control and you know he's making a death-ball...you need to trade efficiently, not attacking head-on into a choke.
One last point, if you scouted more often, you would have noticed there was a LONG period of time where his army consisted of ~2-4 voidrays, you could have definitely got in some good harass there with the hydras...just whittle down his army.
Hope this helps!
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Master NA Zerg, Dia on EU. Just lost 5 zvz games in a row because I have no idea how to read the MU. I try to do some ling bane pressure, they get stupid fast muta. I try muta, they get more muta faster and smash me, I try to macro and they all in....
Basically what is a safe opening in zvz which doesn't put you behind in macro? I die when i go hatch first and recently i've been dying when going 15p 15h with a spine and bane nest.
Also, what do i do against Muta, i'm not a muta player so lose if it's muta vs muta, i just can't keep up. Hydras still suck and Infestors fungal doesn't cut it.
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PLS help me !!!! how do we zergs can deal with marine tank or mech or ANY build with SIEGE TANKS PLS im so pissed of !
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On April 21 2013 23:18 typhoonn wrote:
PLS help me !!!! how do we zergs can deal with marine tank or mech or ANY build with SIEGE TANKS PLS im so pissed of !
Tanks really aren't that good. marine tank - use ling bling muta. mech: use roach/hydra/viper. Add in swarmhosts vs mech is you can.
for ling bling muta: Set up flanks (at least 1, more preferred) with yours ling/bling. With mutas, target his tanks (shiftclick them). Then control your banelings so they don't hit tanks. By using flanks, your blings won't be too clumped up, which means they can't all be killed by 2 tank shots. Move your banelings to the closest big pack of marines and when you're close, a-move to kill them.
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On April 21 2013 21:02 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:
Master NA Zerg, Dia on EU. Just lost 5 zvz games in a row because I have no idea how to read the MU. I try to do some ling bane pressure, they get stupid fast muta. I try muta, they get more muta faster and smash me, I try to macro and they all in....
Basically what is a safe opening in zvz which doesn't put you behind in macro? I die when i go hatch first and recently i've been dying when going 15p 15h with a spine and bane nest.
Also, what do i do against Muta, i'm not a muta player so lose if it's muta vs muta, i just can't keep up. Hydras still suck and Infestors fungal doesn't cut it.
Ling bane pressure hits WAY before fast muta. So if he has mutas out before it hits, you're doing something terribly wrong.
I'm gonna be honest - learn to play with mutas. Hydras and infestors won't cut it if you're diamond or higher. In plat or below you might still get away with roach hydra infestor.
Anyway, I usually open something like 15P 16H 17G and get bane nest and speed. Order in which I get speed/nest is dependant on opponents gas timing. If he has earlier gas than you; take bane nest.
After that 150 gas, I get lair. Then get your next 3 geysers. This can be delayed by morphing banelings if you need to hold a ling all in, but be sure to get lair asap. I then drone up to 2 base saturation. Put down spire, take a third base. Then make mass lings to be able to hold your third/pressure his.
Important: Have enough mins/gas to make a max amount of mutas right when spire is done. DO NOT get supply blocked - build ~4 overlord before your spire finishes to be able to make mutas. Get carapace right away - it's better than +1 attack in muta v muta.
Get your 3rd base 2 gas asap. Gas is more important than drones on your third.
Hope this helped a bit.
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I was just up against a Protoss (ZvP) and he went mass air. I was sure that I would win seeing as I was on more bases then him and I had a quite large number of hydras, corruptors and infestors but in the end I lost quite heavily.
Here is the replay if anyone wishes to view it: http://drop.sc/326108
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How to keep overseers alive in ZvT?
I usually put 1-2 overseers in the same control group as mutas. After pretty much any engagement though, I lose my overseers. How do you keep them alive? Should I be getting lord speed?
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On April 22 2013 15:01 gronnelg wrote:
How to keep overseers alive in ZvT?
I usually put 1-2 overseers in the same control group as mutas. After pretty much any engagement though, I lose my overseers. How do you keep them alive? Should I be getting lord speed?
yes, it will make it much easier to keep the overseers alive. It will also help your spread out OLs to survive against those pesky OL killing Vikings. So it gives you two huge benefits.
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On April 22 2013 17:07 silly wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 15:01 gronnelg wrote:
How to keep overseers alive in ZvT?
I usually put 1-2 overseers in the same control group as mutas. After pretty much any engagement though, I lose my overseers. How do you keep them alive? Should I be getting lord speed? yes, it will make it much easier to keep the overseers alive. It will also help your spread out OLs to survive against those pesky OL killing Vikings. So it gives you two huge benefits.
Is that the only thing needed to keep overseers alive, or are there other techniques?
At what time do you get lord speed?
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As Zerg against all matchups, how should I be winning? By outmacroing the enemy? Whenever I try to do that I find myself not having an army despite having a better economy. I can defend the first few attacks but get surprised by the subsequent ones. I guess better scouting would help, but with what? Zerglings or overlords?
On a side note, when do I normally take a third? When the two bases have been saturated?
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On April 21 2013 02:52 Jamerrz wrote:I'm currently in high diamond looking to get promoted and I'm struggling with ZvP badly at the moment. My latest ZvP loss on Bel'shir Vestige http://drop.sc/325805 the protoss went zealot/void ray and when I initially moved out (too early? I don't know) zealot, collosus, voidray and I got rolled. With my build I got some early lings and roaches up because I usually die to gateway all-ins and then went into hydras when I saw the stargates and the void rays melted them. Now with better scouting I could probably determine earlier whether it's stargate play and then should I just avoid roaches all together? If the Protoss goes for early void rays should I be looking to put on more early pressure with lings or could it be better to take a quick fourth and go for mass muta and corruptors if they respond with Pheonix? I have very little experience going into swarm hosts and I'm not really sure about using them on maps like Belshir Vestige where it's difficult to split the map, I'm still waiting to experiment on maps like Newkirk and try the style Catz uses with swarm host, hydra, viper and mass static defense. Also is there a guide for this style, I can't seem to find one. Thanks for any help.
I watched the first eight minutes of the game and you messed up your economy really bad, its hard to say what went wrong when you opponent rarely missed a probe and almost had more workers than you on two bases while you had three.
Creep spread and such is fine and dandy but do not obsess with that when your overall eco is not crisp and clean, you should have around 70 drones at 10 minutes. Besides you had a good read of your opponent since you had both towers and ligns at front. you could had been more proactive to scout the fringes for pylons but you do not need masses of roaches and lings for that.
And you really overreacted to the stargate two spores per base, if you see him really go overkill on stargate then add on more and do not forget to replace those drones.
The final nail in the coffin were your bad upgrades.
In conclusion work on your macro and if you are afraid of fast warpgates, poke the front with a ling and see how fast his warpgate is and how many times he chrono it. And scout the fringes for probe or pylon, if you do that you can produce drones then add on units.
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On April 22 2013 23:12 justanother wrote:
As Zerg against all matchups, how should I be winning? By outmacroing the enemy? Whenever I try to do that I find myself not having an army despite having a better economy. I can defend the first few attacks but get surprised by the subsequent ones. I guess better scouting would help, but with what? Zerglings or overlords?
On a side note, when do I normally take a third? When the two bases have been saturated?
These question are in general to broad and no one can give an answer there is several since there is no "correct" way to play starcraft. If you are really not sure go for the safe choice and try starve your opponent to death.
The scouting you should you use lings for open spaces and overlords for cliffs(so they can't be killed so easily) in general.
I recommend you to choose a pro player that you like, or plays a funny style and see how he plays all match-up and try mimic what he does. Or choose a guide in strategy forum and try emulate those. Besides you generally take the third when it is safe, against toss that is in general att the 4 minute mark if he early expanded, against zerg before you get mutas (in general and if you go mutas or as response to his third) and against terran depend if you go gasless or not but around 6-8 minute mark.
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EPT
