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On August 25 2013 04:45 Dynamaxion wrote:
When would you take the roach warren and gases? If I try to do this I only have 3 or 4 roaches out by the time Protoss is attacking
If you want a timing answer, drop double gas at 6:00 and standard rw timing is 6:30, though this can cut it a little close; go with 6:20ish if you want to be safer.
Also, once you scout a gateway allin/pressure, make sure to be very active on the map with speedlings to shut down any pylons and delay the push. If you can do this/snipe the probe as he pushes out, that delays the allin significantly and gives you much more time to prepare.
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When would you take the roach warren and gases? If I try to do this I only have 3 or 4 roaches out by the time Protoss is attacking
I'm not a big fan of the 2 previous post in regards to dealing with this. The standard gas at 6:00 and RW in the 6:30-700 range is BAD vs Gateway expand that transitions into an early 4 gate pressure build. The timing of their first warp in will be 6:40 - 7:00 and their 2nd warp in around 7:20 - 7:30.....and the 3rd warp in of units around 8:10 - 8:20.
If you don't start gas until 6:00, by the time you're actually mining it will most likely be around 6:40, or the time of 1st warp in. This means you have zero gas, no roaches, and no ling speed. RW thrown down at 6:20 gives you access to Roaches at 7:10 and then another 30+ seconds to morph them. So what, that gives you Roaches on the field (not even rallied yet) at 7:45 seconds (and you'd only have grabbed 100gas at this point). So again, 7:40ish, you hatch 4 Roaches, and probably another 10-15 seconds to get them rallied. So what??? You have 4 Roaches that can fight at 8:00. That's pretty horrible.
Protoss would be warping in their 3rd wave of units a few seconds after your 1st 4 Roaches arrive. Imo a much better option is to open standard except take 2x gas at 5:20 seconds and defend with 3 Hatch slow lings until speed finishes, which happens before Protoss's 3rd Warp in. After you start speed get a RW add in Roaches as gas/minerals permit.
Another viable alternative is open with a slightly delayed 3rd Hatch (5:20) and start 2x gas at 5:00. This gives you 200g right at 6:30s and you can have 8 Roaches hatched before they start their 2nd Warp in. I don't have an exact b/o for this cause I'm still messing around with it (with great success). One way to do it is skip on your 3rd Queen for about a 1minute, and use the extra 150$ in an early RW instead. This lets gives you enough cash/larvae to still get all the roaches out, and in conjunction with some slow lings easily holds. I'm trying to get a good way to include the immediate 3rd Queen......but still in the works.
Either way, just keep in mind the timings.........Count your gas, minerals, larvae vs their warp in timings and you should be fine.
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How to deal with 4/5 gate pressure after gate core expand ?
When start producing army vs immortal allin ?
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On August 25 2013 08:23 11B wrote:
I'm not a big fan of the 2 previous post in regards to dealing with this. The standard gas at 6:00 and RW in the 6:30-700 range is BAD vs Gateway expand that transitions into an early 4 gate pressure build. The timing of their first warp in will be 6:40 - 7:00 and their 2nd warp in around 7:20 - 7:30.....and the 3rd warp in of units around 8:10 - 8:20.
Just to be clear, what I mentioned was against FFE into gateway allin with +1. My builds against gateway expands are drastically different; I go early gas into speedling, which is fairly standard. Note that speedlings are much more potent vs gateway allins off of gateway expand since something that hits so early will be without +1, so lings will not die in 2 shots from zealots (and his whole army is not as strong). Mass speedling with roach support should be able to handle this type of allin. From what I recall this is the reason that gateway expand into gateway allin is considered inferior to gateway allin off of FFE in high-level games.
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How to deal with 4/5 gate pressure after gate core expand ?
Covered some of this in my previous post. Additionally, just keep an eye on his gas timings and probe count. Vs no gas at expo you need to cut your drones accordingly and prioritize units. Same thing goes for probe count. When you see more gas and more probes you can drone harder -> albeit, slightly cautious. So late gas, lack of gas, low probe count, and no 3rd base are all indicators that you need to prioritize units over drones........and vice versa.
When start producing army vs immortal allin ?
There are quite a few variations of Immortal allins' not to mention time is drastically scaled with your opponents skill level. The fastest Immortal Allin that I can think of is Naniwa style -> 2 Immortal -> 1 Wprism -> followed up with 6 and then 12 quick zealots (w/ +1). This hits at around 9:20 seconds. You scout this via no gases at expansion. Of course, this could be 4-5 gate all-in, but either way, you need to react the same. Cut drones sooner and tech slightly faster -> either to roaches much quicker (so you get more numbers), or a Lair started no later than 6:30 which allows you to get a Hydra Den started around 7:50 - 8:00 and get Hydra's on the field by the time he attacks (with 32 + speedlings supporting).
Vs more standard Immortal allin's, i.e., in the 10:00 to 11:00 minute range you can drone slightly longer (50-55 drones) and then start producing units. Keep in mind sentries are little ba$stards vs Roaches so you'll need quite a few as well as forcing some bad FFs. Peronsally, I prefer to go speedling/Hydra. Either way, when they attack you'll want 45+ speedlings with around 12 Roach or Hydra. To reiterate, vs these type of Immortal Allins' start making units after you have 50-55 drones.
To keep it simple -> Drone to 60 or 62 supply, OR, 2 base mineral saturation, 2 base gas saturation, and 3rd base running 10-12 drones. Not a lot, but 8 - 10 more workers than they'll have (plus an additional expansion) so it works. Build Lings non stop to 85 supply (gives you 50 speed lings) and build either Roach or Hydra to 110 supply (12ish units). If you didn't get supply blocked and haven't missed your injects you should reach 110 supply 30s - 1full minute before he attacks.
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i play on the chinese server and when the parting immortal sentry all-in was shown everyone was doing it so i kinda devised a 3 base counter to this with great success against some top diamond low masters.
standard 3 hatch timing with 15pool first to stop any proxy 2 gates
OL TIMING: 15, 24 , 32 , 42 , 45 from here on 2-3 ol at a time
3 GAS AT 6:00 FOOD SUPPLY AT 44
OL before double gas
MACRO HATCH AFTER DOUBLE GAS , start hatch and queen at the same time
queen will come out with one extra tumor
first 100g ling speed
2nd 100g lair at the same time build RW+evo
stop droning at 62 supply
at around 10:30 you should have 130 food with 15-18 roaches and 2 pages of lings
stop droning at 62 supply or 8:30 mark
its a pretty soild build stops most 2 base all-ins with ffe.
only problem is stopping this 2 immortal zealot +1 cant seems to figure it out.
lots tank roaches pretty well and i can never kill the prism and immortals
is getting banelings a better answer?
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On August 25 2013 15:18 bebop521 wrote:
i play on the chinese server and when the parting immortal sentry all-in was shown everyone was doing it so i kinda devised a 3 base counter to this with great success against some top diamond low masters.
standard 3 hatch timing with 15pool first to stop any proxy 2 gates
OL TIMING: 15, 24 , 32 , 42 , 45 from here on 2-3 ol at a time
3 GAS AT 6:00 FOOD SUPPLY AT 44
OL before double gas
MACRO HATCH AFTER DOUBLE GAS , start hatch and queen at the same time
queen will come out with one extra tumor
first 100g ling speed
2nd 100g lair at the same time build RW+evo
stop droning at 62 supply
at around 10:30 you should have 130 food with 15-18 roaches and 2 pages of lings
stop droning at 62 supply or 8:30 mark
its a pretty soild build stops most 2 base all-ins with ffe.
only problem is stopping this 2 immortal zealot +1 cant seems to figure it out.
lots tank roaches pretty well and i can never kill the prism and immortals
is getting banelings a better answer?
Just identify that it's the Immortal Zealot All-in and cut drones on your third base, as well as the macro hatchery. Considering that build is pretty much the only one that results in the protoss only taking a single geyser, it's absurdly easy to scout. Build maybe 5-6 drones for your natural, and just get mostly roaches with a group of speedlings to attack the immortals, and snipe pylons. If he's going to use a warp prism to micro the immortals, use the extra queen, and natural/third queen to defend. It's honestly entirely about scouting.
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its a pretty soild build stops most 2 base all-ins with ffe.
only problem is stopping this 2 immortal zealot +1 cant seems to figure it out.
lots tank roaches pretty well and i can never kill the prism and immortals
is getting banelings a better answer?
That's the Naniwa Styel Immortal Push that usually hits right around 9:20 with 2 Immortal, 1 WP, and 12 zealots +1. Like Civil, said, just scout it. I still prefer to get Hydras up vs this. You can mess around in HotS online Unit tester to find out what works for you. Basically the Army he attacks with is 32 supply -> and when you get 32 supply of Roaches vs this you get absolutely DEMOLISHED. Just the way it works out. You need to have quite a supply advantage with Roaches and non carapace upgraded lings.
Take the same 32 supply in Lings/Hydra and you win that battle every time. It works out that you need 18 sets of Lings (36) and 7 Hydra. It makes taking care of the WP easy too. Lots of times you'll straight up get the 2 Immortals or other units inside. I just keep making Hydra/Ling and rally to his base for GG. In order to have Hydra in time though you need to start Lair no later than 6:30 (2x gas 5:30) -> 7:50 Lair finished -> slightly before 8:00 start Den -> 8:40ish Den is finished -> 9:13 Hydra's Hactch. I save Larvae at my middle base, or 2nd Hatchery so there's no need to rally.
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On August 25 2013 08:23 11B wrote:Show nested quote +When would you take the roach warren and gases? If I try to do this I only have 3 or 4 roaches out by the time Protoss is attacking I'm not a big fan of the 2 previous post in regards to dealing with this. The standard gas at 6:00 and RW in the 6:30-700 range is BAD vs Gateway expand that transitions into an early 4 gate pressure build. The timing of their first warp in will be 6:40 - 7:00 and their 2nd warp in around 7:20 - 7:30.....and the 3rd warp in of units around 8:10 - 8:20. If you don't start gas until 6:00, by the time you're actually mining it will most likely be around 6:40, or the time of 1st warp in. This means you have zero gas, no roaches, and no ling speed. RW thrown down at 6:20 gives you access to Roaches at 7:10 and then another 30+ seconds to morph them. So what, that gives you Roaches on the field (not even rallied yet) at 7:45 seconds (and you'd only have grabbed 100gas at this point). So again, 7:40ish, you hatch 4 Roaches, and probably another 10-15 seconds to get them rallied. So what??? You have 4 Roaches that can fight at 8:00. That's pretty horrible. Protoss would be warping in their 3rd wave of units a few seconds after your 1st 4 Roaches arrive. Imo a much better option is to open standard except take 2x gas at 5:20 seconds and defend with 3 Hatch slow lings until speed finishes, which happens before Protoss's 3rd Warp in. After you start speed get a RW add in Roaches as gas/minerals permit. Another viable alternative is open with a slightly delayed 3rd Hatch (5:20) and start 2x gas at 5:00. This gives you 200g right at 6:30s and you can have 8 Roaches hatched before they start their 2nd Warp in. I don't have an exact b/o for this cause I'm still messing around with it (with great success). One way to do it is skip on your 3rd Queen for about a 1minute, and use the extra 150$ in an early RW instead. This lets gives you enough cash/larvae to still get all the roaches out, and in conjunction with some slow lings easily holds. I'm trying to get a good way to include the immediate 3rd Queen......but still in the works. Either way, just keep in mind the timings.........Count your gas, minerals, larvae vs their warp in timings and you should be fine.
I explicitely stated in my post that it was a build I use exclusively vs FFE. It is absolutely not designed to play vs gate expo. But the post wasn't about gateway expand into 4gate, it was about gateway allins which I assumed was on two bases after FFE. Playing this build vs 1 gate expo into 4gate pressure will result in a loss every single time.
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On August 25 2013 17:59 11B wrote:Show nested quote +its a pretty soild build stops most 2 base all-ins with ffe.
only problem is stopping this 2 immortal zealot +1 cant seems to figure it out.
lots tank roaches pretty well and i can never kill the prism and immortals
is getting banelings a better answer? That's the Naniwa Styel Immortal Push that usually hits right around 9:20 with 2 Immortal, 1 WP, and 12 zealots +1. Like Civil, said, just scout it. I still prefer to get Hydras up vs this. You can mess around in HotS online Unit tester to find out what works for you. Basically the Army he attacks with is 32 supply -> and when you get 32 supply of Roaches vs this you get absolutely DEMOLISHED. Just the way it works out. You need to have quite a supply advantage with Roaches and non carapace upgraded lings. Take the same 32 supply in Lings/Hydra and you win that battle every time. It works out that you need 18 sets of Lings (36) and 7 Hydra. It makes taking care of the WP easy too. Lots of times you'll straight up get the 2 Immortals or other units inside. I just keep making Hydra/Ling and rally to his base for GG. In order to have Hydra in time though you need to start Lair no later than 6:30 (2x gas 5:30) -> 7:50 Lair finished -> slightly before 8:00 start Den -> 8:40ish Den is finished -> 9:13 Hydra's Hactch. I save Larvae at my middle base, or 2nd Hatchery so there's no need to rally.
5:30 gas feels iffy i mean at 5:30 i barely just got 1 base saturation possible to just go 1 gas early delay ling speed or go 3 gas later?
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With how popular gateway-expand is nowadays, hatchery first has also become more popular and I always do it vs no scout. However, due to this, a few people have been going proxy gates, and I'm not sure what the proper response is to it if I open 15h15p. I assume there is a way to deal with it since otherwise we'd see way more proxy gates due to how popular hatchery first is.
I always thought I had to get spines in mineral line, however I've had problem when people just get a few drone kills, I have to sac my natural and then they keep probing behind it and take an expansion while blocking my ramp with zealots.
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On August 26 2013 01:54 Zheryn wrote:
With how popular gateway-expand is nowadays, hatchery first has also become more popular and I always do it vs no scout. However, due to this, a few people have been going proxy gates, and I'm not sure what the proper response is to it if I open 15h15p. I assume there is a way to deal with it since otherwise we'd see way more proxy gates due to how popular hatchery first is.
I always thought I had to get spines in mineral line, however I've had problem when people just get a few drone kills, I have to sac my natural and then they keep probing behind it and take an expansion while blocking my ramp with zealots.
Your assumption is wrong. The only way you can win is if the protoss let you get spines up (it must be something he conceeds) which would be a massive error from his part.
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On August 26 2013 02:04 Karpfen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 01:54 Zheryn wrote:
With how popular gateway-expand is nowadays, hatchery first has also become more popular and I always do it vs no scout. However, due to this, a few people have been going proxy gates, and I'm not sure what the proper response is to it if I open 15h15p. I assume there is a way to deal with it since otherwise we'd see way more proxy gates due to how popular hatchery first is.
I always thought I had to get spines in mineral line, however I've had problem when people just get a few drone kills, I have to sac my natural and then they keep probing behind it and take an expansion while blocking my ramp with zealots. Your assumption is wrong. The only way you can win is if the protoss let you get spines up (it must be something he conceeds) which would be a massive error from his part.
So 15h15p is a BO loss against double proxy gate? Seems weird that we rarely see proxy gates then given that no zerg ever drone scouts in ZvP and many go hatch first.
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On August 26 2013 03:57 Zheryn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 02:04 Karpfen wrote:On August 26 2013 01:54 Zheryn wrote:
With how popular gateway-expand is nowadays, hatchery first has also become more popular and I always do it vs no scout. However, due to this, a few people have been going proxy gates, and I'm not sure what the proper response is to it if I open 15h15p. I assume there is a way to deal with it since otherwise we'd see way more proxy gates due to how popular hatchery first is.
I always thought I had to get spines in mineral line, however I've had problem when people just get a few drone kills, I have to sac my natural and then they keep probing behind it and take an expansion while blocking my ramp with zealots. Your assumption is wrong. The only way you can win is if the protoss let you get spines up (it must be something he conceeds) which would be a massive error from his part. So 15h15p is a BO loss against double proxy gate? Seems weird that we rarely see proxy gates then given that no zerg ever drone scouts in ZvP and many go hatch first.
Most people go 15 pool, some go 15 hatch. by going proxy 2 gate you win if they go for the slightly less used alternative.
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On August 25 2013 05:18 Dwayn wrote:
Which maps should I veto as zerg? I've just vetoed newkirk, disgusting map. I also hate close positions on red city.
Newkirk is my best map and imo the best map in the pool for Zerg. I got rid of Korhal and Neo Planet.
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Give me 1 build against all races to practice . Im beginner . Tnx in advance
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Hi low masters here.
I have a question on ZvZ
I open +1 carapace ling bane into fast 3rd into muta (not real fast muta, but a bit delayed because of the +1 carapace and the fact that I don't rush all 4 gases).
There is one build that always kills me: the snute build (+1 speedroach timing). Also similar roach timings usually kill me.
So far I've tried to hold it by placing 2 spines at the natural and 2 at the 3rd and massing lings, but it doesn't work.
Anyone knows how can I hold? maybe 1 spine + roaches? not getting that fast 3rd and putting 4 spines at the natural?
thanks
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On August 21 2013 14:48 UltiBahamut wrote:While that drone sits there you need to pull 4-6. 8 at most. Do not pull everything. DO NOT. If you want any chance to stay in the game either way in this game do not drop your economy down to 0 for the next 2 minutes  It isn't worth it because the cannon rush is behind the mineral line. THERE IS NOT ENOUGH SURFACE AREA for all 15ish drones to attack. so you are dealing extra damage to yourself by doing this.
Would drone stacking give you the surface area, considering you're late on that pylon and 6-8 drones are available ? there are mineral patches close by after all.
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On August 26 2013 18:20 ekra wrote:
Hi low masters here.
I have a question on ZvZ
I open +1 carapace ling bane into fast 3rd into muta (not real fast muta, but a bit delayed because of the +1 carapace and the fact that I don't rush all 4 gases).
There is one build that always kills me: the snute build (+1 speedroach timing). Also similar roach timings usually kill me.
So far I've tried to hold it by placing 2 spines at the natural and 2 at the 3rd and massing lings, but it doesn't work.
Anyone knows how can I hold? maybe 1 spine + roaches? not getting that fast 3rd and putting 4 spines at the natural?
thanks
the +1 on carapace only makes it worse vs roaches timings because roaches will still two-shot you. I don't think it is possible to hold a +1 timing coming from a gasless like snute's if not with heavy heavy heavy investment on spine crawlers (which isn't really a win for you).
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On August 26 2013 20:33 Karpfen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2013 18:20 ekra wrote:
Hi low masters here.
I have a question on ZvZ
I open +1 carapace ling bane into fast 3rd into muta (not real fast muta, but a bit delayed because of the +1 carapace and the fact that I don't rush all 4 gases).
There is one build that always kills me: the snute build (+1 speedroach timing). Also similar roach timings usually kill me.
So far I've tried to hold it by placing 2 spines at the natural and 2 at the 3rd and massing lings, but it doesn't work.
Anyone knows how can I hold? maybe 1 spine + roaches? not getting that fast 3rd and putting 4 spines at the natural?
thanks the +1 on carapace only makes it worse vs roaches timings because roaches will still two-shot you. I don't think it is possible to hold a +1 timing coming from a gasless like snute's if not with heavy heavy heavy investment on spine crawlers (which isn't really a win for you).
Roaches have 18 damage with +1 attack. Lings have 35HP and 1 armor with +1 armor. Each roach attack will deal 17 damage to the ling. 35-17*2=1. The ling will still have 1HP after 2 attacks from the roach.
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EPT
