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morgoth813
43 Posts
I believe all lings could be a much better choice even though more micro intensive, because that would leave bane nest and bane gas for earlier lair/tech, or far more minerals in the early game. This is my theory, and given a micro where I lose two lings per bane, it makes a lot of sense - so how do I train that micro outside of ladder ZvZ ? Thanks for the 105 pages, too  | ||
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FakePseudo
Belgium716 Posts
On August 27 2013 21:35 11B wrote: + Show Spoiler + After scouting his early CC build you reacted very nicely with 3 Hatch into pool. And in general, although I'm giving my advice and some criticism I feel you definitely outplayed your opponent up till just around the 9:00 mark ^^. My thoughts......... I'd like to see you make more than 3 Queens for starters. With 3 Hatch before pool you could quite easily have powered your way to 5 Queens! Imo this is much better for a few reasons. 1st, better creep -> faster movement -> better scouting via more vision -> and of course -> nice defense vs Hellions. Also, going more Queens lets you skip RW and roaches (at least early, or forever) and use your gas more efficiently. I say efficiently because grabbing those Roaches delayed your Lair timing by 30s, which in turn slows down your Bling speed by as much too.  You could use some better scouting man. You never sacrificed an Overlord to see his main base and your overall overlord placement was, at least imo, pretty bad. And to make things a bit worse, with no vision from Ovies you didn't have a few Lings in more key places. Basically, if you have better creep/scouting/vision you'd be ready for his 11:00 attack that killed your 3rd base -> which is the reason why you lost the game.You missed an inject for over 30s around the 7:41 - 8:11 mark in your main. To reiterate, getting RW and roaches slowed down your gas timings, at least with the build you used. Use extra Queens/Queen to defend and abuse creep. Um, the first Hellion attack at your 3rd lost 7 drones. Not game ending by any means (you got his Hellions ^^) but you had your Queen and 2 Roaches positioned in a blocking area and your ran your Drones "away" from the block into the open, all by them selves ^^. You could have probably saved 5-6 drone if you moved them towards your Roaches, or -> SE, not West. Around 9:45s you had almost 800 minerals, which I would have liked to see invested in 2 more macro Hatches, which would have worked nicely had you grabbed 2 additional Queens early. For me, if you're going to open 2x gas at 5:25s -> speed -> 2 evos 1/1 -> Lair build and you follow it up with 3rd/4th gas at 8:45 then you should be opting for a macro oriented approach with much more Ling/Bling flooding with delayed Muta tech (13-14m mark). Otherwise what's the point of delaying the 3rd/4th gas for so long? You get less gas and many more minerals yea? Might as well put those minerals to use. Right around the 9:50ish mark you were supply blocked and made 6 ovies. Now take that earlier 30s missed inject, and the few extra drones you had to remake and you could realistically have had something that looked like 6 more larvae from the inject (+4 inject +2 from 1 larvae every 15s), 4 more larvae from being supply blocked (gotta use 2 for the ovies ya), and 4-6 more from the remake of drones = 14 or 16 more Larvae that could have been used by the 10:00 mark. Which leads me to my last point: Imo you should really halt drone production and concentrate on non stop units sometime in the 9:15 - 9:35 mark. But still, at least IMO, you still easily outplayed your opponent during most of the time which led to you losing your 3rd. That Terran had much lower SCV count at around 9:45 than he should, and all his buildings/add-ons were delayed too. His initial macro was quite poor and he simply capitalized on your lack of scouting. Yes, this was pretty much the analysis I had afterwards. All balance whine set aside, do you have any advice on how to react after the bad fight he took? (Talking about the *perfect* surround that happened on my creep around the middle of the game? | ||
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
On August 27 2013 22:10 FakePseudo wrote: Yes, this was pretty much the analysis I had afterwards. All balance whine set aside, do you have any advice on how to react after the bad fight he took? (Talking about the *perfect* surround that happened on my creep around the middle of the game? I guess that if you have the "chance" to have a perfect engagement and clean all his army, that's a good time to sit at your base with your ling bane, respending creep again, teching toward ultralisk and infestor and harass as much as possible with your mutalisk and regain map control. | ||
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11B
United States188 Posts
All balance whine set aside, do you have any advice on how to react after the bad fight he took? You were floating lots of minerals at this time, like 2K. I think the threw you off your game a bit with that early Expo kill. So although you had a good engagement you were still behind in macro. Now if you spent your money earlier with a much quicker 4th and additional macro hatches as minerals allowed you'd be in a Good position. After all, you still had an upgrade advantage. So how to react? Exactly what Vanadiel said, plus, you have to deny Terrans a 4th base. Any time a Terran gets a 4th Base I find it quite difficult to compete, even if I'm up 2 bases. | ||
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FakePseudo
Belgium716 Posts
On August 27 2013 22:57 11B wrote: You were floating lots of minerals at this time, like 2K. I think the threw you off your game a bit with that early Expo kill. So although you had a good engagement you were still behind in macro. Now if you spent your money earlier with a much quicker 4th and additional macro hatches as minerals allowed you'd be in a Good position. After all, you still had an upgrade advantage. So how to react? Exactly what Vanadiel said, plus, you have to deny Terrans a 4th base. Any time a Terran gets a 4th Base I find it quite difficult to compete, even if I'm up 2 bases. Mmmh I'm talking about a more generic situation (I find this happens a lot both on ladder and less frequently in pro games). Moreover, I didn't really swept his army, I just got a really really good engagement, which he avoided by genuinely picking everything up and boosting away. My reaction was to follow the medivacs with both ground army and mutalisks, which turns out when looking at the replay isn't really the best because I walk straight through the minefield and lost a couple of expensive units in the process (the whole exchange from start to finish is not in my favor at all, although I managed to get the upper hand at first). If I were to kill his whole army, I'd be very happy to do what you suggest (And I do it most of the time), but there if I do nothing I feel like I missed an opportunity, but apparently straight up trying to chase is not the best option, so again, based on this, what do you think would be the best (still sit back and macro?) | ||
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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
Does anyone know a good place to learn cheese builds mainly against Terran and toss? Thanks and sorry if we ever meet on the ladder | ||
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Paljas
Germany6926 Posts
On August 28 2013 01:15 RaFox17 wrote: Hey! Due to the fact that my 4-years old beloved macbook pro isn´t what it used to be and playing SC2 is quite a laggy experience these days i´m going to simply start cheesing my ass off! I have always been a full macro player so i´m total a noob in the art of cheesing. Even though i´m not a fan of cheese i´m going to give it a chance since microing against 4M for example with my mac chugging a lot is quite frustrating. Does anyone know a good place to learn cheese builds mainly against Terran and toss? Thanks and sorry if we ever meet on the ladder against terran, roach baneling all in is your best bet. here is a small bo: http://imbabuilds.com/hots-zerg/hots-zvt/zvt-roach-bane-all-in/ (i personally dont use this site, but i have heard good things about it) against protoss, i dont like a particular all in. you could try nydus swarmhost or just the classic roach all in. | ||
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
- - - - - Experimenting with ways to beat this style of immortal sentry allin, and so far I cannot find a way to beat the one that pushes out at 8:50. Even with a 21 gas hydra style (at 88 gas pull out one drone, speed, then lair), like life does, my hydras still only pop around 9:00-9:10, and hydras popping out at that time are too fragile to damage the push that is hitting your third/nat. It is especially deadly on 2P maps. If the push hit at 10 I would have no problem crushing it every time but as of now I am losing hope. It just seems so fucking strong. I have also experimented with a delayed third (27 supply) and fast double gas at 40, which still only gets my hydra den done at around 8:50-9:00 or so, which is not enough to hold the push considering that hydras will melt very quickly to any sort of fire. A minute earlier changes everything, as zerg does not have a critical mass of roach ling within 1:00 of time, and the push shits on it. Even if I cut drones earlier, say at around 7:30, and do not get my 5th/6th gas, I do not like relying on a Protoss fucking up FFs in order to win with around 100 supply. So far the only alternative I can think of are swarm hosts, and I'm not even sure about that. The few times I experimented with the hosts you have to sac your third in order to survive, which is not a position I want to be in. Assuming my macro is very close to perfect it becomes more an issue of timings, and I am in dire need of help. Is there any sort of standard opener which can transition upon scout of fast double gas and chronoed immortals into an anti-immortal sentry build that hits right at 9:00 on a 2P map? I do not want to rely on chance. I do not want to rely on roach ling, which at such a tender timing would itself rely on Protoss fucking up. I am losing hope that it is possible to hold consistently. And this is before you even factor in the possibility of a chronoed MC following the warp prism... | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
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11B
United States188 Posts
Here are a few links displaying the build in question: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=378888 and a 3 part Video series on it here: The 8:50 timing is when Parting actually leaves his base. He doesn't actually engage till right around the 9:50 - 10 mark.........so that's you're window to own enough rallied units to defend with. Here's a slight tweak to the standard 3 Hatch build ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=324733) that will crush the Parting build: + Show Spoiler + - start your 3rd Hatch at 4:40 instead of the 4 - 4:15 norm. - 1st Queen which has walked to natural injects > lays tumor > then walks to 3rd - start your 3rd Queen from natural when 3rd is halfway finished - 2x gas at 5:25ish - 2x gas at 7:50 - 100g start Lair nlt 6:30 - 100g Ling speed nlt 7:00 - Hydra Den nlt 8:00 - standard z vs p opener has right around 60 drones at 8:00 but with the above build you'll want to cut drones at around 53-55. This build gives you access to Speed lings and Hydra's at about the same time; 8:45ish. So you're morphing your Hydra's right before he pushes out and easily have them rallied to your 2nd or 3rd in enough time. This build gives you right around 1000g to play with by the 9:15 mark, which is about the latest time you can actually start morphing Hydra's (and really only from your 2nd and 3rd > main takes to long to get rallied). So that's 100g for Lair > 100g for speed > 100g for den > which leaves you 700g to play around with for units and or upgrades (in terms of when his attack will hit). If you were on top of all your timings you'd start your Lair before 6:30 > start your Den before 8:00 > and around 8:35 could start upgrading Grooved Spines (only 80s) > which gives you +1 Range at 9:55!. So take that 150g away and that leaves you with 550g left. That leaves gives you 11 Ranged Hydras when his push comes. If you stopped drones around 53-55 then that translates into this by 10:00: Lings non stop to 85 supply, which is right around 50 speedlings > and 11 Hydra putting you at right around 110 supply when he attacks. I'll tell you now, 50 speedlings and 11 ranged Hydra absolutely destroys that push. | ||
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11B
United States188 Posts
here's the replay: http://drop.sc/355777 + Show Spoiler + The opening build is a bit strange from both of you ^^. His was ironically the "perfect" counter to your opening in terms of potential harassment ^^. I mean, who does overlord > 12 pool > into gasless expansion? I know! Versus someone who opens with 10 ovie > 10 pool .Anyways.........I digress. You did a nice job getting that drone count up after your opening but I don't like your delayed gas. I don't think you got it till around 3:50. I prefer in the 3:10 - 3:20 range because you get quicker speed, blings (if needed), quicker +1 cara, and quicker Lair. Overall you played it pretty damn good, really. 3 costly mistakes imo where not paying close enough attention to his creep spread and losing 2 Key scouting overlords, not to mention supply. That in itself lost you vision of when his Roaches were moving out. A nother mistake I noticed was not keeping a good eye on when his expansion went up. I didn't see an overlord or ling scout and in your game he actually took that 3rd pretty quick (not much behind yours). And the last mistake I can see is making too many drones. You already saw he was going Roaches (Overseer at Lair to confirm just in case) so you should have made some earlier lings to harrass/deny with. Yea, it cuts into your drone count but it also, quite firmly gives you map control and the ability to deny his 3rd base for quite some time. If you've already got a 3rd up, not to mention you already had a macro Hatch, you could easily have droned up that 3rd after you stop his initial push -> which should be your main goal. Now yea, less drones hurts your eco a bit but you can negate that by not making any spines. You built 4 which cost 400 bucks. Anyways, 10 extra larvae would have given you 20 extra Lings which I guarantee would have stopped his first attack. Take into account the earlier lings would have denied his 3rd which in turn denies his push. I mean, he has to deal with the potential of a counter and will want to secure his 3rd first. All this gives you time to exploit your 3rd (drones) and get your macro Hatch up and running. 4 hatch speedlings into slightly delayed muta +1 cara (lings!) is infinitely better than 2 Hatch +1 Roach yes? :D | ||
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Deleted User 261926
960 Posts
On August 28 2013 07:51 11B wrote: @ Qwyn Here are a few links displaying the build in question: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=378888 and a 3 part Video series on it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRX-PepC2dQ The 8:50 timing is when Parting actually leaves his base. He doesn't actually engage till right around the 9:50 - 10 mark.........so that's you're window to own enough rallied units to defend with. Here's a slight tweak to the standard 3 Hatch build ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=324733) that will crush the Parting build: + Show Spoiler + - start your 3rd Hatch at 4:40 instead of the 4 - 4:15 norm. - 1st Queen which has walked to natural injects > lays tumor > then walks to 3rd - start your 3rd Queen from natural when 3rd is halfway finished - 2x gas at 5:25ish - 2x gas at 7:50 - 100g start Lair nlt 6:30 - 100g Ling speed nlt 7:00 - Hydra Den nlt 8:00 - standard z vs p opener has right around 60 drones at 8:00 but with the above build you'll want to cut drones at around 53-55. This build gives you access to Speed lings and Hydra's at about the same time; 8:45ish. So you're morphing your Hydra's right before he pushes out and easily have them rallied to your 2nd or 3rd in enough time. This build gives you right around 1000g to play with by the 9:15 mark, which is about the latest time you can actually start morphing Hydra's (and really only from your 2nd and 3rd > main takes to long to get rallied). So that's 100g for Lair > 100g for speed > 100g for den > which leaves you 700g to play around with for units and or upgrades (in terms of when his attack will hit). If you were on top of all your timings you'd start your Lair before 6:30 > start your Den before 8:00 > and around 8:35 could start upgrading Grooved Spines (only 80s) > which gives you +1 Range at 9:55!. So take that 150g away and that leaves you with 550g left. That leaves gives you 11 Ranged Hydras when his push comes. If you stopped drones around 53-55 then that translates into this by 10:00: Lings non stop to 85 supply, which is right around 50 speedlings > and 11 Hydra putting you at right around 110 supply when he attacks. I'll tell you now, 50 speedlings and 11 ranged Hydra absolutely destroys that push. is that the build JD did in his games vs rain? (only that he used the hydras to pressure the protoss instead of defending). | ||
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
I guess it is essential to delay as long as possible with speedlings. I'll continue to refine the build and work with it on my own. It seems like an awesome build to use regardless of P build. Already have some good ideas. Just need to refine the hold off. I originally meant to post in RemarK's thread, that is his blog, lol (I accidently posted there). Regardless, it still feels very razor thin. Ling harass will be the key between victory and defeat. | ||
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Defenestrator
400 Posts
On August 28 2013 07:51 11B wrote: start your 3rd Hatch at 4:40 instead of the 4 - 4:15 norm. - 1st Queen which has walked to natural injects > lays tumor > then walks to 3rd - start your 3rd Queen from natural when 3rd is halfway finished - 2x gas at 5:25ish - 2x gas at 7:50 - 100g start Lair nlt 6:30 - 100g Ling speed nlt 7:00 - Hydra Den nlt 8:00 The gas timing surprises me a bit... I thought standard gas timing was 6:00, has this changed? I thought any earlier gas timing would make everyone say it was too eco-sac'ing, but not sure if this has changed recently. | ||
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11B
United States188 Posts
is that the build JD did in his games vs rain? (only that he used the hydras to pressure the protoss instead of defending). Nope. It's my own build . Slightly delayed Hatch allows for the loss of minerals due to earlier gas timing. At the same time I prefer to inject at the natural first, then creep tumor. The delayed Hatch also allows you to spend all larvae on drones while powering to 44 supply, right at the 5:44ish mark (with overlords too > not the 44 supply block). So you get slightly faster supply, quicker drones, better economy (4 earlier drones from inject at natural), and tech (2x gas earlier). The only negative is you get 1 creep tumor. But you start to float money pretty quick with all the lings, even with the initial lower drone count. This lets you easily build all the Hydras when they become available and then still add the standard 10m macro hatch (I get a 4th Queen before that for creep and later injects).It's a 2 pronged build designed to stop 2 base all-in cheese and stop any early 3rd base attempts. So basically ranged Hydras on creep do great at home vs Immortals/Sentries and WP (quite often sniped and GG on spot). And then mass lings with 10-12 ranged Hydra is very powerful vs any 3rd expo. Basically they're forced on 2 bases until they get Colossus by which point you should be on 4 Hatch > 6 gas > and be transitioning to Hydra/SH/started Hive tech and Vipers thereafter. Ling harass will be the key between victory and defeat. You get Hydras out and in position before the attack so Ling harass is just an added plus. But yea, Ling harrass! This is also very strong vs Phoenix due to their lack of offensive units. Versus VR it's pretty good too. Even if they opened with double stargate around 7:20-30 they won't have more than 4 when you attack with 12 Ranged Hydra / 50 speedlings. | ||
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11B
United States188 Posts
The gas timing surprises me a bit... I thought standard gas timing was 6:00, has this changed? I thought any earlier gas timing would make everyone say it was too eco-sac'ing, but not sure if this has changed recently. Standard is 6:00. I even provided a link in my previously post to the standard build timings. Getting gas 30 seconds earlier does slow your economy but -> delaying the Hatch for 40s gives you 300$ to play with for during that time. And IMO that extra cash rolls over, it doesn't just stop at the 40s. How? Well, you lose some minerals from early gas and subtract from the 300$. This is all approximate, but it leaves you with probably 200$ floated minerals. You then use that 200$ on the 4 drones that you get from injecting at your Natural 1st, which strays from walk to natural, lay creep, walk to 3rd. So the standard 3rd Hatch at 4:00 would get approximately 3 more larvae (15s x3) and then you'd start triple injects from there. By Injecting the Natural 1st, you get 4 extra larvae, all of which are drones. So how does this work out? Well, you actually get 1 extra larvae, even with a 40s delayed Hatch....So that translates into not only more larvae, but "faster" too, all of which means quicker drones. This also gets you to 44 supply faster (w/ overlords too). This negative impact is only getting one creep tumor. My opinions on this is ongoing and subject to change from more experimenting and learning, but at least for now, it's my new preferred opener. Edited about 6x lol. | ||
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.rebOrn
United States49 Posts
On August 28 2013 07:01 Decendos wrote: i started playing gasless 4 queen into +1 +1 speedroaches with around 8 min 3rd and have pretty good success vs muta into roach hydra or roaches or +1 +1 lings. but how do you transition if he keeps adding mutas while expanding like a mad man. how to ever punish him? roach hydra gets kill by speedbanes or if you have enough roach hydra to be safe from that its already too late since he can expand very fast. maybe only build some defensive roaches and put your gas into faster infestors with only some defensive hydras/queens to get also a 4th and attack later on? Gas less openings are not so good in zvz IMO. A good Zerg would just take a greedy 3rd and outproduce you in roaches instead of going mutas. But to answer your question, you want to try and open infestors instead of hydras, opening hydras are pretty damn terrible against muta openers, you wanna basically just make 2-3 spores per base and get infestors out, once you have a couple of them out you can start adding hydras and try to do a 2-2 timing etc, cause your ups should be ahead. | ||
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
On some 2P maps, the timing of getting hydras out is razor thin - as in they are hatching right when the push gets there. That is why I said the ling harass will be needed to buy time. Maybe, maybe not. When are you getting hydras out? On 4P maps should be easy peezy. | ||
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ktimekiller
United States690 Posts
Anyone figure out an effective measure against this? | ||
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11B
United States188 Posts
Well, I think my favorite style is still Blade5555555 . I forget the exacts of it, but it's something like: + Show Spoiler +standard Pool and Hatch timings > 2x gas at 6-6:10 > RW in 7:00 min range (sometimes earlier) > Lair right around 7:20 > follwed by 2x gas > followed by Ling speed > followed by Hydra Den and an evo chamber. Vs ground he throws down a Pit asap and versus some form of air he gets 8-12 Hydra and then Pit > 3rd/4th gas at 9:00 and then a 4th Hatch at another base in most cases > and eventually into a Hydra > SH > Viper army. Is that about right Blade??? lol. I usually start making Hydra's at the 9m mark and usually have 11-13, with Range rallied between my 2nd/3rd bases right around 9:50. If they didn't go for a 2 base all-in then you really have to do some damage or kill / delay their 3rd. Otherwise I feel like we're a little behind. We have slower 5th/6th gas and a later IP and slower transition. A good counter to this build would be to head straight to Colossus ^^. And yea, it can work vs gateway expand into gateway pressure but only if: + Show Spoiler + they don't get +1. But even then, they can still out micro you with sentry/zealot which can be problematic w/out roaches. The more I play vs better players it appears that grabbing an early gas for quicker speed is the better move. It lets you scout and shut down the pylons which allows you drone more while transitioning into Roaches/Hydras/SH and eventually Vipers. I've been watching A LOT of Blade55555 Korean replay packs (High Masters / GM) so you'll see my posts and gameplay transition towards his style. Here's a replay showcasing my current style of Ling/Hydra: http://drop.sc/355915. I tried to keep it simple with very little apm spam. + Show Spoiler + Notice some key benchmarks at 6:00 and 8:00. The norm is 44 supply at 6:00 and 60drones at 8:00. In my game I'm at 44 supply at 5:53 (w/ ovie almost done) and at 8:00 I have 57 drones. I also have quite a few larvae available which could instantly be 65+ drones, but my style is geared at stopping pushes and denying 3rds, so slightly fewer drones on purpose. I'm not sure if this is good or bad lol. Edit: I tweaked my gas timings to start earlier so I could get both +1 and Range. I think I started 2x gas at 7:00 but 7:10 - 7:12 would be "ideal" > basically balancing minerals to gas income so you can get a few more Hydra's quicker. | ||
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