i started playing gasless 4 queen into +1 +1 speedroaches with around 8 min 3rd and have pretty good success vs muta into roach hydra or roaches or +1 +1 lings. but how do you transition if he keeps adding mutas while expanding like a mad man.
This is an extremely strong z vs z build on maps that allow easy wall-offs. + Show Spoiler +
You could go Infestors but your attack window takes even longer. Um, say you throw down your IP at 10:30s. You won't have useable Infestors morphed until 3 minutes later, and then it will take you another 45-60s to cross the map. I like the idea of grabbing Hydralisk and attacking right when 2/2 hits. This should give you in the range of 1:00 - 1:20 seconds sooner attack than w/ Infestors. And if he's staying hard on the Muta's I'd immediately start making around 3-4 more Queens and when you push out bring your other 3 Queens too.
Basically form your own zerg Death Ball. Yea, Lings/Blings are pretty strong when you don't have big numbers, but once you hit 40+ Roach, 16+ Hydra, and 6-7 Queens .......with all those units being 2/2, I don't know how a Muta/Ling/Bling player can hold that. I suppose a smart player would scout it and immediately get spore/sunk/SH and out resource you, but that only has a certain window too. If you hit early enough you still win.
I'm not sure what b/o you're using but here is an excellent link: This is the #1 Ranked Korean GM Zerg........ Roach +1/+1, Z vs Z gasless opener. I did mention this build order is from Korean #1 GM Zerg right? So, ya, it's good .
If I go gasless 3 hatch open vs gw open, how could I hold a simple 1 gate expand into 4 gate zealots MsC all in with my gasless 3 hatch open? What gas timings If I scouted 4 gate? Very early roach warren? Spines?
On August 28 2013 20:02 Fej wrote: If I go gasless 3 hatch open vs gw open, how could I hold a simple 1 gate expand into 4 gate zealots MsC all in with my gasless 3 hatch open? What gas timings If I scouted 4 gate? Very early roach warren? Spines?
I just dont have ling speed in time
I believe you can have Ling speed in time if you grab a gas AS you take your third when, and mining only 100 gas. I need to play some more before I have a definitive answer, but I doubt you can go gasless pool first into 3 hatch against a gateway opening, unless they decide to play passive, but then they might as well have went FFE.
It's not possible to open gasless and have speed done before 6 minutes.
With 15h,16p,17g I get 100 gas at 4:20.
Add the 110 seconds of research, and you will have speed at 6:10, in time for that 4gate.
So maybe you could get it @ 6:00 with a 15/16g but I really don't see the point as 6:10 is early enough to use it against the first wave.
If you want to be a bit more greedy, you can push that back 20-30 seconds and defend the first wave with slowlings and some queens - not sure if it's worth it in the end.
On August 28 2013 21:34 morgoth813 wrote: It's not possible to open gasless and have speed done before 6 minutes.
With 15h,16p,17g I get 100 gas at 4:20.
Add the 110 seconds of research, and you will have speed at 6:10, in time for that 4gate.
So maybe you could get it @ 6:00 with a 15/16g but I really don't see the point as 6:10 is early enough to use it against the first wave.
If you want to be a bit more greedy, you can push that back 20-30 seconds and defend the first wave with slowlings and some queens - not sure if it's worth it in the end.
I wrote gasless 3 base open, 14 pool, 16 hatch, ~4min 3. hatch (like vs FFE), you wrote 15 hatch then 16 gas, its quite different, anyway Its only problem for me on 4 locations map, where I cant scout in time, so I cant decide I should take gas or not, then I usually go for gasless 3 hatch, and standard macro like vs FFE and 4 gate just rape me
On August 28 2013 21:34 morgoth813 wrote: It's not possible to open gasless and have speed done before 6 minutes.
With 15h,16p,17g I get 100 gas at 4:20.
Add the 110 seconds of research, and you will have speed at 6:10, in time for that 4gate.
So maybe you could get it @ 6:00 with a 15/16g but I really don't see the point as 6:10 is early enough to use it against the first wave.
If you want to be a bit more greedy, you can push that back 20-30 seconds and defend the first wave with slowlings and some queens - not sure if it's worth it in the end.
I wrote gasless 3 base open, 14 pool, 16 hatch, ~4min 3. hatch (like vs FFE), you wrote 15 hatch then 16 gas, its quite different, anyway Its only problem for me on 4 locations map, where I cant scout in time, so I cant decide I should take gas or not, then I usually go for gasless 3 hatch, and standard macro like vs FFE and 4 gate just rape me
On big 4 player maps like Whirlwind, etc I've found its safer to just 10 or 13 drone scout. I'll take the few seconds off my pool and hatch timing if it means not dying to some silly gate-core or agressive gate-nexus opening.
i started playing gasless 4 queen into +1 +1 speedroaches with around 8 min 3rd and have pretty good success vs muta into roach hydra or roaches or +1 +1 lings. but how do you transition if he keeps adding mutas while expanding like a mad man.
This is an extremely strong z vs z build on maps that allow easy wall-offs. + Show Spoiler +
You could go Infestors but your attack window takes even longer. Um, say you throw down your IP at 10:30s. You won't have useable Infestors morphed until 3 minutes later, and then it will take you another 45-60s to cross the map. I like the idea of grabbing Hydralisk and attacking right when 2/2 hits. This should give you in the range of 1:00 - 1:20 seconds sooner attack than w/ Infestors. And if he's staying hard on the Muta's I'd immediately start making around 3-4 more Queens and when you push out bring your other 3 Queens too.
Basically form your own zerg Death Ball. Yea, Lings/Blings are pretty strong when you don't have big numbers, but once you hit 40+ Roach, 16+ Hydra, and 6-7 Queens .......with all those units being 2/2, I don't know how a Muta/Ling/Bling player can hold that. I suppose a smart player would scout it and immediately get spore/sunk/SH and out resource you, but that only has a certain window too. If you hit early enough you still win.
I'm not sure what b/o you're using but here is an excellent link: This is the #1 Ranked Korean GM Zerg........ Roach +1/+1, Z vs Z gasless opener. I did mention this build order is from Korean #1 GM Zerg right? So, ya, it's good .
Well this build is a bit of a gamble since it's having a really hard time against Snute's build, 14 pool 15 hatch 21 gas, evo @ 128 gas Lair @ 148 gas +1 melee as soon as the evo finishes RW when Lair is at 20/80 Roach speed as soon as the Lair finishes, and mass roaches
It destroys the gasless build because everything comes earlier.
If the player playing gasless holds, he has to wait for the 2/2 roach/hydra timing.
i started playing gasless 4 queen into +1 +1 speedroaches with around 8 min 3rd and have pretty good success vs muta into roach hydra or roaches or +1 +1 lings. but how do you transition if he keeps adding mutas while expanding like a mad man.
This is an extremely strong z vs z build on maps that allow easy wall-offs. + Show Spoiler +
You could go Infestors but your attack window takes even longer. Um, say you throw down your IP at 10:30s. You won't have useable Infestors morphed until 3 minutes later, and then it will take you another 45-60s to cross the map. I like the idea of grabbing Hydralisk and attacking right when 2/2 hits. This should give you in the range of 1:00 - 1:20 seconds sooner attack than w/ Infestors. And if he's staying hard on the Muta's I'd immediately start making around 3-4 more Queens and when you push out bring your other 3 Queens too.
Basically form your own zerg Death Ball. Yea, Lings/Blings are pretty strong when you don't have big numbers, but once you hit 40+ Roach, 16+ Hydra, and 6-7 Queens .......with all those units being 2/2, I don't know how a Muta/Ling/Bling player can hold that. I suppose a smart player would scout it and immediately get spore/sunk/SH and out resource you, but that only has a certain window too. If you hit early enough you still win.
I'm not sure what b/o you're using but here is an excellent link: This is the #1 Ranked Korean GM Zerg........ Roach +1/+1, Z vs Z gasless opener. I did mention this build order is from Korean #1 GM Zerg right? So, ya, it's good .
Well this build is a bit of a gamble since it's having a really hard time against Snute's build, 14 pool 15 hatch 21 gas, evo @ 128 gas Lair @ 148 gas +1 melee as soon as the evo finishes RW when Lair is at 20/80 Roach speed as soon as the Lair finishes, and mass roaches
It destroys the gasless build because everything comes earlier.
If the player playing gasless holds, he has to wait for the 2/2 roach/hydra timing.
What's the proper response to mass void rays? I made mass hydra with lings to take care of the stalkers (0-0 stalkers...) I still ended up losing. The last fight was something like 40 hydras vs. 20 voids and I still got CLEANED up... Do you need to make corruptors? This was vs. 4 stargate void rays with upgrades... Hydras should beat it though, shouldn't it? Maybe I just needed more... I think he was an upgrade ahead too... Still.... embarrassing loss.
On August 29 2013 11:17 SoleSteeler wrote: What's the proper response to mass void rays? I made mass hydra with lings to take care of the stalkers (0-0 stalkers...) I still ended up losing. The last fight was something like 40 hydras vs. 20 voids and I still got CLEANED up... Do you need to make corruptors? This was vs. 4 stargate void rays with upgrades... Hydras should beat it though, shouldn't it? Maybe I just needed more... I think he was an upgrade ahead too... Still.... embarrassing loss.
You'll need fungal growth against mass voids. Get as many fungals off as you can before surrounding with hydras. Voids bunch up very nicely, and no Protoss ever splits.
What's the proper response to mass void rays? I made mass hydra with lings to take care of the stalkers (0-0 stalkers...) I still ended up losing. The last fight was something like 40 hydras vs. 20 voids and I still got CLEANED up..
I like to play a bit funky versus this, so I like to use Queen/Hydra/SH/Viper, and maybe throw in some Corruptors (suck vs VR but they soak up some damage while the Queens/Hydra own things up. Plus upgrades work well with this combination of units too. I like the SH because a good Protoss should definitely have Templars/Storm later in the game. And when I say Queen, I mean 10+. Hell, if I had the Hatches and time I'd eventually get 30, 35, ore even more. I've got F as my A.I. Ability (secondary hot key) and D is my transfuse so it's very simple to just keep spamming dfdfdfdfdfdfdfdfdfdfdf and transfuse for days.
To be perfectly Honest, Mass Queens/ Viper handily beats VR/Templar/Colossus but it's just not realistic to have 50 Queens, lol.
On August 27 2013 22:00 morgoth813 wrote: I tried but I couldn't find a guide on splitting lings in full ling vs ling/bane fights.
I believe all lings could be a much better choice even though more micro intensive, because that would leave bane nest and bane gas for earlier lair/tech, or far more minerals in the early game.
This is my theory, and given a micro where I lose two lings per bane, it makes a lot of sense - so how do I train that micro outside of ladder ZvZ ?
Thanks for the 105 pages, too
Bump (if I may, I do remember seeing one or two in the thread) - thanks for your attention
What's the proper response to mass void rays? I made mass hydra with lings to take care of the stalkers (0-0 stalkers...) I still ended up losing. The last fight was something like 40 hydras vs. 20 voids and I still got CLEANED up..
I like to play a bit funky versus this, so I like to use Queen/Hydra/SH/Viper, and maybe throw in some Corruptors (suck vs VR but they soak up some damage while the Queens/Hydra own things up. Plus upgrades work well with this combination of units too. I like the SH because a good Protoss should definitely have Templars/Storm later in the game. And when I say Queen, I mean 10+. Hell, if I had the Hatches and time I'd eventually get 30, 35, ore even more. I've got F as my A.I. Ability (secondary hot key) and D is my transfuse so it's very simple to just keep spamming dfdfdfdfdfdfdfdfdfdfdf and transfuse for days.
To be perfectly Honest, Mass Queens/ Viper handily beats VR/Templar/Colossus but it's just not realistic to have 50 Queens, lol.
Actually there are so many cases I find Queens useful that I really feel like making Queens all game long.
If the god of creep was with me I'd even like to do lair pushes w/ heavy Queen support (one could imagine an overlord highway instantly transformed in a tumor highway, and stuff like that).
My question though, are there any drawbacks to making a lot of Queens ? And, are there any drawbacks to leaving all your spawned larvae at their respective hatcheries, regrouping only when you or the enemy moves out ?
My question though, are there any drawbacks to making a lot of Queens ?
They are slow as hell off creep and they are rather large and clunky units which means they don't do well in tight spaces. Additionally, resources invested into Queens are resources lost that could have went into 2 Roaches (or any unit), or getting a quicker macro Hatch, etc.
It's one thing to go into HoTs Unit tester and grab 120 supply of VR/Colossus vs 120 supply Queens/Viper and literally laugh your a$$ off as you crush his army.....but it's quite more difficult to actually mass and use them in during real games. It seems like there's always something "right now" which is more important than trying to be "cheeky" with some mass Queens later.
But vs VRays, or Skytoss in general then IMO they become quite strong.........and it lets you save up larvae resources for other good units. And I'm never ashamed to start massing Queens early in ZvsZ once I see Muta tech. 6 fully charged Queens owns 16 Muta. Most times you lose between 0-1 Queen. Pretty good trade. And 10 Queen fully charged likewise is stronger than 24 Muta.
But then..........games play out much different in real time then they do on paper and which unit counters what. So IMO, Queens are underused but when you do use them in numbers greater than normal you still need to use good discretion and prioritize.
And in regards so saving larvae. I do it quite a lot vs Protoss. I like to see what kind of units he is building so I can switch tech and then repeat and rinse as needed.
- 15 Pool > 15 Hatch (or whatever variation you want, even Hatch pool if your greedy) - 15 Ovie - 15 Queen - 1-2 sets of Lings - 21 supply or roughly 3:45 1st gas - add ovies when needed (your preference when) - 2 more Queens > 1st Queen injects, walk to natural and then lay tumor (helps quicker wall-offs when necessary) - @ 100g > evo chamber > +1 missle - @ 100g > Lair - when Lair is 1/3 finished get a RW - at 2 base mineral saturation start 2nd/3rd gases - roach speed when Lair is finished
- your +1 finishes and you move out with slow roaches but by the time you reach their base speed is finished
Former diamond here... now struggling even in plat lol...
Ok here is the situation. My ZvZ is beyong attrocious. I always try either lings/mutas or rush to ultras. I NEVER do roachs/hydras because its like the lack of mobility is killing me.
Can someone explain to me how to use the roaches... because it feels when I tried that army each time I engage he just has more stuff... Can I deny his third with that army or do you also makes lings to harass?
I know it looks like a stupid question. But its like I hit a wall because of my refusal to make those units in ZvZ. I need convincing.
Is general, what's the best way to figure out what places you can/can't put overlords without them being spotted? I can't imagine it would be very fun for someone else to go into a custom game with me and send a marine around the map at the places I tell them to go.
EPT
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Do you need to make corruptors? This was vs. 4 stargate void rays with upgrades... Hydras should beat it though, shouldn't it? Maybe I just needed more... I think he was an upgrade ahead too... Still.... embarrassing loss. 
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