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Hi, i'm also coming back after 2~ish years off...can you elaborate a bit more on those builds? because im totally lost...
Like, in TvZ, whats the followup to the cc first? 3rax? and the 11reaper opener? Is that a macro oriented build or a build thta relies on putting pressure early/mid?
For TvP, whats maru's standart 1-1-1? I mean gas timings, when to put down a cc, etc...
Or could anyone link me to some builds so i can read/learn about them? Thanks in advance!
Dream's CC first is, as the name suggests, a macro oriented opening that is fairly safe. It allows for cloak banshee off 1 gas with 3 CC behind it, which is why he is so fond of it. It can be used for defending a roach timing or pressuring the zerg. You can transition into either mech or bio afterwards.
11 reaper I think is the proxy reaper. If the zerg opened hatch first then you can even try to sneak a bunker into the main and rally the reapers there. With micro and increasing amounts of reapers you can even snipe queens & force out spine crawlers.
Maru loves his mine drops in TvP but it's more the manipulating of what the protoss is reacting to that gives him such a great ability to find windows to do damage. Stay on one gas, reactor after 1 reaper, factory at 100 gas (2 mines) and starport at 100 gas (1 medevac).You drop 2 mines + 4 marines in main (save the medevac and 1 mine if you can) while running 6 marines up into the natural to kill probes or snipe mothership core.
On June 02 2015 07:55 Saeldran wrote: Hi! Gold Terran here with some questions about reaper expand. Since my main concern is macro, I'd like to have a build I can use in all three matchups. I always open 12/12 Reaper expand, no problems here. However, I'm not sure how to follow up my expansion. Against Zerg and Terran, a 1-1-1 follow seems to be the better option, since Hellions are great against Zerg and I am not able to win midgame TvT without tanks. However, since my mechanics aren't good enough to properly widow mine drop, I find 3-rax followup better against Protoss.
What do you guys think? Should I follow up with 3-rax in every matchup or 1-1-1? I know it probably doesn't matter since I'm gold and if I was good enough I could win with any build, but I really want your opinion on this one.
Hi.
Against terrans I would suggest you read : TLStrategy's article about TvT openers even if the focus is more on the gaz first builds, the concepts are the same when it comes to how to scout, how to adapt. TvT is very versatile and there are many roads you can take to get in the mid game with an advantage. if you open reaper for example, you can follow with a 8 marine 6 helion 1 medivac push, , you can also go for banhsee if your oponent went gaz first into banshee, you can play defensive, you can go mech, you can go bio etc... check WCS 2015 S2 qualifiers ForGG vs Soul to have some good examples of reaper openings plays.
Against Zerg, going into 1-1-1 is not the standard nowadays, but more an agressive opener for a hellions/hellbats push support with medivacs or banshees. The standard macro build is reaper(s) -> reactor hellions stim -> 3rd CC -> 2 extra rax or 2 EB -> starport raxes 4,5, 6+ into big bio mine push. There are plenty of small variations to do this, you can for example check how INnoVation does it
Against Protosses, reaper into 3 rax is not done anymore, as it was a very specific build aimed to counter 2 bases blink all ins, when maps were crap and widow mines weak. If you really don't want to go for mines, go 2 rax -> facto. 3 raxes delays your medivac too much and also your 3rd CC (because of mass marine production). But really, you should try the mine drop, it's not that hard, you just need to practice, and your opponents should not be very good at defending it. Check this article. Just practice it, you will have very good surprises.
Last, against both P and Z, if you're not confident in your multitask (reaper does require multitasking) maybe you should try CC first builds. They are very powerful, esp in gold league where your opponents have bad macro, they will give you a huge eco advantage that will secure the win if you don't do anything stupid.
Thanks you so much, this is exactly what I needed. Gonna go practice them right now!
On June 02 2015 07:55 Saeldran wrote: Hi! Gold Terran here with some questions about reaper expand. Since my main concern is macro, I'd like to have a build I can use in all three matchups. I always open 12/12 Reaper expand, no problems here. However, I'm not sure how to follow up my expansion. Against Zerg and Terran, a 1-1-1 follow seems to be the better option, since Hellions are great against Zerg and I am not able to win midgame TvT without tanks. However, since my mechanics aren't good enough to properly widow mine drop, I find 3-rax followup better against Protoss.
What do you guys think? Should I follow up with 3-rax in every matchup or 1-1-1? I know it probably doesn't matter since I'm gold and if I was good enough I could win with any build, but I really want your opinion on this one.
Hi.
Against terrans I would suggest you read : TLStrategy's article about TvT openers even if the focus is more on the gaz first builds, the concepts are the same when it comes to how to scout, how to adapt. TvT is very versatile and there are many roads you can take to get in the mid game with an advantage. if you open reaper for example, you can follow with a 8 marine 6 helion 1 medivac push, , you can also go for banhsee if your oponent went gaz first into banshee, you can play defensive, you can go mech, you can go bio etc... check WCS 2015 S2 qualifiers ForGG vs Soul to have some good examples of reaper openings plays.
Against Zerg, going into 1-1-1 is not the standard nowadays, but more an agressive opener for a hellions/hellbats push support with medivacs or banshees. The standard macro build is reaper(s) -> reactor hellions stim -> 3rd CC -> 2 extra rax or 2 EB -> starport raxes 4,5, 6+ into big bio mine push. There are plenty of small variations to do this, you can for example check how INnoVation does it
Against Protosses, reaper into 3 rax is not done anymore, as it was a very specific build aimed to counter 2 bases blink all ins, when maps were crap and widow mines weak. If you really don't want to go for mines, go 2 rax -> facto. 3 raxes delays your medivac too much and also your 3rd CC (because of mass marine production). But really, you should try the mine drop, it's not that hard, you just need to practice, and your opponents should not be very good at defending it. Check this article. Just practice it, you will have very good surprises.
Last, against both P and Z, if you're not confident in your multitask (reaper does require multitasking) maybe you should try CC first builds. They are very powerful, esp in gold league where your opponents have bad macro, they will give you a huge eco advantage that will secure the win if you don't do anything stupid.
Thanks you so much, this is exactly what I needed. Gonna go practice them right now!
Np, I hope you'll have fun and plenty of wins
Regarding the TvZ part, I linked to the INnoVation build but then realised that it can be a bitch to execute properly in terms of multitasking in the early game, and is also a big challenge when it comes to defend roach(banes) busts.
If you find it too hard at first, I suggest you read TLStrategy's guide for 4M it's kinda old now but most of the concept still apply. It's also very detailed and really worth the read anyway.
There is a second part : here which is also very detailed and focuses on how Polt did it back in the days against Jaedong, it's more of a game analysis than a general strategy article, but again a very good read.
If you have troubles, don't hesitate to post your replays here and ask for help
How do you actually scout all ins or tech rushes while doing CC first/(Gasless RaxFE into 3 Rax) in TvP? Since you have no reaper, and only the scv scout, how is it possible to scout anything fishy?
On June 06 2015 07:52 SBGamer wrote: How do you actually scout all ins or tech rushes while doing CC first/(Gasless RaxFE into 3 Rax) in TvP? Since you have no reaper, and only the scv scout, how is it possible to scout anything fishy?
FlaSh has a CC first that accounts for DT and Oracle after expand stuff blindly. You are basically trading the reliable scout for a bigger boost in income early. The plus side is that you will have more minerals 'spare' if you need them to build static defence such as bunkers or turrets. The downside of course is that you need to be on point in recognizing signs of aggression and have good scan timings.
The most common stuff that will tip you off is initial Gas count, Pylon count and Chronoboost being spent/banked.
EDIT: He used the 14CC I am referring to in his latest streaming session, which you can find via YouTube.
How could you scout and hold the all in while doing CC first? (Game 2/KingSejongStation)
If Bomber hadn't been so stubborn about building turrets (both time and location) he could have moved out to secure map control at around 7:00 to 8:30 and then could easily have seen the push coming. If he drops 3 extra bunkers and 1-2 turrets then he can hold for the win quite nicely.
I also don't like Bomber's CC first variant very much. Some CC first styles, like the kind MKP did when he got to the finals of that one tournament, could have held this build with much less scouting just because of pure unit production.
I've been watching a lot of Korean terran streams like fantasy and supernova. Everyone seems to go marine hellion with some drops mixed in without scouting early game. They also skip turrets, how do they defend a banshee playing like this? Is it just that the korean metagame isnt banshee heavy so they take risks like this?
On June 09 2015 01:53 Obamarauder wrote: I've been watching a lot of Korean terran streams like fantasy and supernova. Everyone seems to go marine hellion with some drops mixed in without scouting early game. They also skip turrets, how do they defend a banshee playing like this? Is it just that the korean metagame isnt banshee heavy so they take risks like this?
If you go for a gas first marine / hellion / medivac push and your opponent is going for banshee, you can force your opponent to keep his banshee at home with your aggression (if he doesn't keep it at home then your marine / hellion will kill more workers faster than his banshee). Standard is to build a Viking at home immediately after the medivac, so if your push reveals a cloak banshee you just need to add an engineering bay or raven.
On June 09 2015 01:53 Obamarauder wrote: I've been watching a lot of Korean terran streams like fantasy and supernova. Everyone seems to go marine hellion with some drops mixed in without scouting early game. They also skip turrets, how do they defend a banshee playing like this? Is it just that the korean metagame isnt banshee heavy so they take risks like this?
I haven't seen those stream myself but when you say don't scout, do you mean they don't scv scout or are they just sitting in their own base macroing and stuff?
I assume that you mean they aren't scv scouting but there are other ways of scouting. Poking up their ramp with a hellion to see how many marines or hellions they have can be enough to tell if they went gas first or not and if you start a viking after your medivac it will pop shortly after the banshee arrives and you will trade scvs with each other.
Another thing is that marine/hellion drops hits earlier than a banshee which means that the opponent basically have to leave the possible banshee at home if they don't want to take game ending damage. Therefore you have some time to react when your marine/hellion enters his base.
Edit:
Damn, Pursuit_ managed to post his answer while I was writing
Lately, I've been losing an absurd amount of games to Protoss who cut 100 gas of units somewhere between 8 and 12 minutes and throw down a random DT shrine. I generally do what I see a lot of pros do and build a turret at my rally point once my third is down, but this kind of thing hits before that turret is up. Should I just autobuild a turret as soon as my ebay is done? Is there any reliable way to scout this with standard marine-mine-medivac opener? I'm a little unsure about the turret at the front because it means I'll still get very behind if toss mixes a dt into the fairly standard 12 minute warp prism zealot drop.
Hi I'm a mid-high gold terran. In tvz I always go 14cc into 1-1-1 with reactored hellions and a cloaked banshee. It seems that whenever zergs scout my cc first, they make a bunch of lings and deny my natural while starting a baneling nest. I am able to hold with hellions, marines, and the banshee taking minimal losses but I am forced to play from behind and defensive for fear of a follow-up attack. I usually drop my bunker around 23 supply and only have 2 marines until my hellions pop.
Another issue I've been having is when I'm playing from behind from the situation described above and the zerg goes very baneling heavy while waiting or skipping on upgrades. My standard setup is 5 rax (3 reactor 2 tech lab), reactored factory, reactored starport and I go for a bio mine composition. Later I add on 3 rax and another factory for thors. Some although not all of the times the zerg has very little or no anti-air (aside from queens). I cannot deal with the baneling heavy composition as my splits are decent at best and I have trouble positioning and burrowing my mines(they also send single zerglings to bait mine shots but I'm afraid to unburrow the mines because the zerg could attack and kill the mines). Should I switch to tank production when this happens? What else should I do to counter this?
In tvt, I do innovation's marine hellion expand from imbabuilds. How do I scout a tank drop or a double tank drop if they wall off their base so I can't get in. Should I scan? Also, I always have trouble knowing where the drop is going to land. In my natural, main or they siege up in front on the low ground. I pull scvs but it doesn't always work.
My last question is regarding tvp. I do a reaper expand into a second rax with tech lab for stim, factory, starport for medivacs and then 3 rax(bomber's build on imbabuilds). I push out once I have my (2) medivacs and try to pressure the toss. If I want to do damage to the toss or straight up kill them (because I don't want to play vs. a toss past 3 bases) should I charge the natural and try to kill the army (usually with one or two colossi) or drop and do a two-pronged attack?
Hi again! I wrote a post here some days ago asking for standard builds I could use, and after @Gwavajuice answered (thank you very much) I read the articles he mentioned and started practicing.
My TvP and TvZ seem fine, I have a plan and know what to do. However, I'm a bit lost whenever I face other Terrans. After reading the TvT openers article, I decided to try Gas first banshee and did it a couple of games. After that I transitioned into marine tank, although I'm not really sure what's the proper way to transition. However, after the initial banshee harass, I don't know when I should be attacking, and how to attack, especially when my opponents go mech, since they build a ton of tanks and a ton of missile turrets and I just don't what to do. Here's a replay of a really long TvT game where I fail miserably.
Again, I know that really the only problem I have at my level (I'm gold) is not macroing properly, but I like to play games with a plan in mind, a well-defined build, so I can just practice it over and over. So, here are my questions:
-Which opener would you recommend me? Is Gas first banshee ok for me or should I try a more macro oriented one? -How should I transition after opening 1-1-1 expand? -Should I go mech, marine-tank, or pure bio? -When should I be attacking my opponent? -What do I do when my opponent turtles up like crazy (10+ tanks, a hundred missile turrets)?
Hi again! I wrote a post here some days ago asking for standard builds I could use, and after @Gwavajuice answered (thank you very much) I read the articles he mentioned and started practicing.
My TvP and TvZ seem fine, I have a plan and know what to do. However, I'm a bit lost whenever I face other Terrans. After reading the TvT openers article, I decided to try Gas first banshee and did it a couple of games. After that I transitioned into marine tank, although I'm not really sure what's the proper way to transition. However, after the initial banshee harass, I don't know when I should be attacking, and how to attack, especially when my opponents go mech, since they build a ton of tanks and a ton of missile turrets and I just don't what to do. Here's a replay of a really long TvT game where I fail miserably.
Again, I know that really the only problem I have at my level (I'm gold) is not macroing properly, but I like to play games with a plan in mind, a well-defined build, so I can just practice it over and over. So, here are my questions:
-Which opener would you recommend me? Is Gas first banshee ok for me or should I try a more macro oriented one? -How should I transition after opening 1-1-1 expand? -Should I go mech, marine-tank, or pure bio? -When should I be attacking my opponent? -What do I do when my opponent turtles up like crazy (10+ tanks, a hundred missile turrets)?
Mech is currently considered stronger in TvT than bio. However, at your level I doubt your opponents can competently exploit this so bio play is fine too. Mech in TvT can be played on almost every map in the pool, contrary to mech in other matchups.
Experiment a bit with whether you prefer bio or mech yourself, some people are uncomfortable with one of the styles.
Compositions can also be reactionary. If what you see allows you to safely assume your opponent will go or mech (e.g. lots of reactored hellions) before you commit to your own tech, you can adjust. As bio against mech you either go marine/marauder/medivac/tank or full bio/medivac (emphasis on marauders). Don't go pure bio against a marine/tank player though, it is very unlikely to work (unless their macro is utter shite).
The goal against mech is to establish map control as best you can, get ahead in economy and trade your units efficiently.
Try finding weak spots in the mech player's defense to get in some drops (preferably multiple medivacs), but don't throw away your army for nothing.
Don't engage into a mech player's fortified position. Have vision, know when he moves out (he has to move out to win the game eventually unless you throw so much money into his defenses that you're broke and have to give up), engage when he's moving out and has his tanks unsieged, preferably attacking from multiple angles.
Don't overcommit in bio vs mech. Eventually you'd just throw so many units into the mech player that you run out of money, that's not what you want to have happen
If you do those things but can't quite land a killing blow, the ultimate goal for TvT is always the late game sky transition (ravens, vikings, battlecruisers).
Regarding the openers, I'm not one for the fancy ones (e.g. gas first banshee). Currently I'm using the opener Flash used in his most recent GSL appearance, which transitions very nicely into mech. + Show Spoiler [Game starts at 5 minutes] +
But as I said, these things are stylistic choices and you kinda have to find an opener you're comfortable with.
On June 10 2015 08:12 Saeldran wrote: Hi again! I wrote a post here some days ago asking for standard builds I could use, and after @Gwavajuice answered (thank you very much) I read the articles he mentioned and started practicing.
My TvP and TvZ seem fine, I have a plan and know what to do. However, I'm a bit lost whenever I face other Terrans. After reading the TvT openers article, I decided to try Gas first banshee and did it a couple of games. After that I transitioned into marine tank, although I'm not really sure what's the proper way to transition. However, after the initial banshee harass, I don't know when I should be attacking, and how to attack, especially when my opponents go mech, since they build a ton of tanks and a ton of missile turrets and I just don't what to do. Here's a replay of a really long TvT game where I fail miserably.
Again, I know that really the only problem I have at my level (I'm gold) is not macroing properly, but I like to play games with a plan in mind, a well-defined build, so I can just practice it over and over. So, here are my questions:
-Which opener would you recommend me? Is Gas first banshee ok for me or should I try a more macro oriented one? -How should I transition after opening 1-1-1 expand? -Should I go mech, marine-tank, or pure bio? -When should I be attacking my opponent? -What do I do when my opponent turtles up like crazy (10+ tanks, a hundred missile turrets)?
Thanks in advance.
Hi again, I've watched the 25 mintues of your game I think I got the general Idea - about opener : really, there is no rule but learning how to scout and adapt to what your opponent is doing. In gold league, a 12 rax 15 can be a good macro build, just be aware it's weak against proxy reapers. but you can go gaz first banshee or repers if you prefer these styles. Again, the thing is to adapt. IN yoru game you saw his spatio+ tech lab and decided to go for raven, then cloack banshee, with a techlab on your facto in the mean time. This is not optimal. You have 2 routes basically : raven viking to defend, or straight agression with cloack banshee into viking at home(if you don't mess up your viking is out before his banshee reaches your base. Going both raven and cloack banshee is a lot of gas and won't really work (for example your opponent had his defense up waaaaay before your banshee could do anyting) Moreover, it considerably delays your bio transition (see after)
- strat and transition : mech or bio is equivalent in terms of strenght and you should only choose it because of personal taste and maps (some maps are good for mech, some are terrible). If you go bio, the transition is to add 2 rax after your expand, with 2 techlabs and start stim and shield asap. Don't cut tanks though. In your replay, you only had 1 tech lab and finished shield at 14 mins which was way to late. Once stim and shield are started, you also start a 3CC when you have enough minerals. After than you keep building raxes and 1-2 extra factos to get to the point where you have 6-8 raxes, 2-3 factos 1 starport. If your opponent when bio, all your extra rax should have reactors and you make mass marines tanks. If he went mech, the rax have tech labs and you go tanks marauders vikings. - attacking and opponent turtling : TvT is not much about timing but about positions, like in "can I siege my tanks in an OP spot?" In your game, you make a good move on your first attack when your siege between his natural and third... but your ruin it by trying to a-click up the ramp and end the game. If you had stayed there, you could have contained his army inside his natural and freely killed his third, while building more and more army and economy at home, instead of loosing all of your marines.
That's why turtling is actually a bad strat : you don't need to kill your enemy in a TvT, what you want is to starve him. If your opponent is turtling, it means you can contain him, if you can contain him, it means all the map is yours.
Setting up a contain is an extremely powerfull move in TvT, you should aim for it each time you have an opening (and enough tanks to secure this contain). you can "soft contain" (just units) or "hard contain" (build turrets and bunkers). On the other hand if you see your opponent tyrying to contain you, break it asap, with scv pull if needed, else you'll die.
Another powerful strat is the doom drop, as you tried it. but a doom drop requires 1) to have your opponent of position 2) to have some tanks in it to claim a postion inside his line (again TvT, is about position) droping pure bio in the middle of sieged tanks and planetaries will only have a bad result. In your game, look at ressource lost after that big drop when you kill the planetary at his third : it's like 9k vs 3k, this drop hurted you way more than him.
You should have prepared your drop : find a better spot (the main is usually better, it allwos you to siege his production facilities), have a btter execution (a couple of tanks down the cliff to quickly kill turrets while you're dropping the rest of the army, make sure you have tanks in your medivacs, maybe a smaller drop in another spot to draw his attention away from his main, etc...)
Another very good way to kill a trutling mech player is, once you have him contained on 3 bases, to take more bases and prepare a huge air transition, with raven vinking mainly, and BC if he has too many turrets and thors, and some banshees to get rid of his tanks. Your opponent can't counter this if he's only on 3 base and if he has massively invested in tanks, hellbats and turrets. This move is a checkmate, and that's why you really don't have to panic about killing your opponent asap, he's on 3 base? fine, don't waste time and ressources with doom drop, just put your tanks outside his bases, secure air control and laugh.
and of course, whatever you choose to do, remember that air control is key part of any TvT, always try to have this for you. Now some real examples :
INnoVation (mech) vs Cure (bio) -watch the whole series the 7 games of this semi final is perfect example of what bio vs mech should look like, cure looses in the end, but if you watch it closely you'll understand many things about the match up.
SSL finals Dream (bio) vs Maru (bio) This finals are extremely interesting for the early games and opener and how to win games with viking hellions marines.
MMA vs TY GSL 2015 season 1 ro 8 MMA is a beast in TvT as proven in his series against TY (who very far from being a scrub in the match up) you can also watch MMA vs Yoda in the WCS EU season 3 finals, MMA vs ForGG in the ro8 of the same event, MMA vs Bomber in WCS grand finals 2014 ro4. Well, just watch ANY TvT with MMA, ForGG, Polt or Bomber involved.
Thank you so so much for you answers, @Elentos and @Gwavajuice. I've been trying 12 rax 15 gas expand into reactored hellions + raven or late banshee and transitioning to mech. Seems to be working fine. What do you guys think about 12rax13gas 1-1-1 expand Innovation usually does where he goes raven first?
Again, thank you guys so much for the huge amount of work you put into your answers, you are my heros. I have no reason to suck at TvT now!
When playing mech what is a good number of production facilities, assuming late game and 4+ bases? Currently I am using the following, but I am not sure if it is ideal or not:
On June 15 2015 09:55 Comogury wrote: When going normal barracks builds, around when should I add my 4th and 5th, then 6th, 7th, etc.. barracks?
Really depends on what you are doing and in what match up you are playing. We need more information. The easy answer is: when your economy dictates you add these extra production facilities.
There is more than just one "normal barracks builds." That's called bio and it can be done dozens of ways.
EPT
